Jump to content
Science Forums

Faith over medicine?


Zythryn
 Share

Recommended Posts

This is always a sensitive topic, and the feeling of helplessness one gets when they see people making choices of such bizarre logic makes them reach for a way of intervening. But there is a fine line of family choice that must be respected in society.

 

I hesitated to bring it up, but there is a similarity to the Schiavo case here. In that case family members were intervening, and the government was intervening to provide treatment that was being refused by another part of the family for a woman who could not speak for herself. In the end she was put into the situation of suffering a slow death from starvation. Medicine? All she needed was a feeding tube.

 

As I recall there was outrage in these threads about the interference in that private family matter. Here we have another case that is quite dissimilar in its details, but we have the opposite outrage. We should have stepped in and treated this child against the wishes of the family. If we are going to look at these issues on a case by case basis then we need some sort of guidelines for the decision making which allows a measure of latitude for circumstances. If we are going to just make black and white rules then we have a situation where you cannot have it both ways. If you wanted the feeding tube pulled from Schiavo, then you cannot force the treatment of this girl against the wishes of the family.

 

Freedom of choice sucks when people make decisions you don't agree with. What is the alternative, and how will you react when it is your decision being thrust into the news?

 

Bill

 

The Schiavo case is not similar to the diabetic child that died.

In that case, the woman had a brain injury from an accident and was comotose for ten years.'Her brain shrank by 25%.

 

The girl could have been saved by intervention but a naturopathic physician has a number of herbs that can be used. One in particular is an herb in India that actually 'regenerates' the 'pancreas'

Type 2 diabetes can be easily cured but I am not familiar about no.1. But I am sure that they have capable treatments for type one as well.

 

The natural treatments with dietary corrections to strengthen the 'IMMUNE system is the way the ND's treat their patients. Also. any deficiencies in their blood tests are corrected with the required vitamins and minerals.

There are many other ways to cure their patients also. This is just a sample of their methods.

 

For your information, the JAMA says that drugs kill over 100,000 patients a year and this is with prescribed and directed use.

Anothe one and a half million are hospitalized for the side effects.

 

The ND's cure patients that are rejects as terminals by the government approved health care syatem.

These are from 'testimonials' of the patients themselves.

 

Mike C..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Alternative Medicine [including natural and homeopathic]

is defined as that set of practices that cannot be tested, that refuse to be tested, or that consistently fail tests".

-- Richard Dawkins

 

These 'double blind placebo' tests require hundreds of thousands of dollars to do.

Only the drug companies can afford to do them.

 

The ND's rely on 'clinical' results that are proven by the patients testimonials themselves.

I cannot think of a better way to prove a treatment.

 

I have subscribed to about a half dozen newsletters of these ND's.

 

So I am familiar with their ways and methods.

 

Mike C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The girl could have been saved by intervention but a naturopathic physician has a number of herbs that can be used. One in particular is an herb in India that actually 'regenerates' the 'pancreas'.

Fascinating, do you have a name of the herb, or perhaps a study of any sort? BTW, the pancreas isn't damaged, but the islet cells which reside there are, perhaps this is what you are referring to?

 

For your information, the JAMA says that drugs kill over 100,000 patients a year and this is with prescribed and directed use.

 

Do they also tell you how many people die in their care?

Do they also mention that a million type 1 diabetics are alive solely because of modern medicine?

Of those 100,000 people, how many are intentional (if any).

How many are mis-diagnosis?

How many are due to drug interactions, of which the doctors weren't informed?

 

Seeing as how this 'natural medicine' nearly killed my brother in law, I am skeptical, but open to seeing any documentation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just one more note in case anyone that isn't well versed in type one diabetes and is considering this line of treatment.

As Mike stated, this is his opinion.

It is my opinion that this is a line of snake oil and is extremely dangerous. I had a brother in law (not deceased, just no longer my brother in law), who had type 1 diabetes and followed this line of treatment.

His kidneys shut down breifly and he almost died. He went back to insulin and started recovering nicely.

 

For your information, your brother in law did not go to a ND.

 

Kidney failure and liver poisonings are caused by the drug treatments.

 

There were numerous drugs 'pulled' off the market because of deadly side effects.

 

Mike C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For your information, your brother in law did not go to a ND.

 

I don't see how you could possibly say that, do you know him?

 

Kidney failure and liver poisonings are caused by the drug treatments.

 

Mike, you are speaking in absolutes which could be extremely dangerous if anyone took your statements as well informed.

Yes, kidney failure and liver damage CAN be caused by drugs.

The above are not caused by all drug treatments.

Untreated or poorly treated type one diabetes will lead to kidney damage. Which is exactly what happened in the case of my BIL.

If the drugs conventional medicine perscribed caused the kidney damage, why did he get better after starting taking it once again?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you look at all the data, there are also many cases where people had faith in medical treatment only to have that backfire. This is what malpractice insurance is designed for. Someone should do a study and compare the number of malpractice cases, to faith deprived negative medical outcomes, normalized to the malpractice ratio, to see who is winning.

 

If you look at studies that are conducted to test the effectiveness of new medications, they give out both the medicine and placebos. In some cases, the placebo works just as well for many people. This data shows the power of faith in healing, which in this case is non-religious. But it does show the body's natural ability to heal itself in some cases.

 

Ask yourself, why isn't the placebo affect given a more important role, even though every study may be able to point out at least one example? To point it out, could make the med look less affective, because the drug's effectiveness could be partially placebo based. The result is it may not work for everyone. Only those with enough placebo faith can put the med over the hump, so it can work fine.

 

The placebo affect creates another possibility. Just as faith in the placebo can sometimes cure a condition, maybe a reverse placebo affect can create conditions with the power of suggestion. It is possible that those who are able to benefit by the placebo may have had a placebo condition that ends up with all the apparent symptoms. If the mind can cure it, it may also be able to create it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Zythryn,

 

You are much more kind and patient than I am, and I respect how well you've responded to this entire concept of natural medicine to treat Type I.

 

 

Me, on the other hand, I think it's absolutely incredibly stupid, unecessarily dangerous, and in quite poor form to suggest that ANY person with Type I diabetes try to treat it without insulin.

 

The fact that the people suggesting this treatement don't even know what Type I diabetes is suggests that their knowledge of what is required to treat it is equally lacking.

 

It's simple. If you don't give the person insulin, their body produces ketones since the glucose cannot be broken down into usable form, which stresses the kidneys and the liver (which are over burdened trying to remove the ketones from the body), and the person after very short amount of time will go into diabetic ketoacidosis, coma, and die.

 

I went into DKA when I was 10. I don't care how much you put your faith into a snake healer. If my dad had taken me to one, I'd be dead.

 

 

People really need to stop offering advice when their own understanding is so absolutely and completely abysmal. Also, the suggestion that insulin is somehow like viagra or some other more recent pharmaceutical product is ridiculous.

 

I really am having a difficult time controlling my frustration right now, so I'll just stop here. I cannot believe how prevelant such ignorance still is in the year 2008. Un-freakin-believable...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IN and Zyth are absolutely right. Insulin for Type 1 is like giving water to prevent dehydration. It is not a drug, it is the body's missing ingredient.

 

Type 2 can often be controlled with diet and exercise, but even then you can run into situations where you need insulin. I believe that Mike C is not familiar with the various forms of diabetes.

 

There is a correlation between processed sugar (several processed foods actually) and type 2 diabetes. American Indians had no history of diabetes until they adopted modern western dietary habits, now they suffer one of the highest rates of type 2 diabetes in the world. The same story can be found all over the globe. With the food industry so well established this trend will probably not reverse soon, but it can with the proper demands from the market.

 

Type 1 is a genetic driven condition. It is also becoming more prevalent. 50+ years ago it was not uncommon for a kid to die from undiagnosed diabetes. I am not even sure when insulin became commonly available. As a result those with type 1 had a poor chance of reproducing. Thanks to science those with type 1 now lead lives that are virtually indistinguishable from those without diabetes. But this also means that the disease is growing in the population (where is used to be a common genetic dead end). This is not a bad thing but it makes us more reliant upon science for survival, and is evidence of human evolution in progress.

 

Bill

 

National Diabetes Statistics

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Zythryn,

You are much more kind and patient than I am, and I respect how well you've responded to this entire concept of natural medicine to treat Type I.

 

While I appreciate the compliment, it is a bit misplaced:evil:

If just one type 1 diabetic happens upon this thread that is considering Mike's course of action, and takes a closer look because of what I or anyone else has posted any amount of time I spend is well worth it.

 

Too often it seems people will jump to conclusions without investigation, even if the consequences are deadly:(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not saying all illness can be treated with the mind. There are things that are innate to the body and are better treated with medicine. One will not be able to grow a new finger but they could have it re-attached. But on the other hand, not all medical conditions come under this category. The bias against the body's ability to heal attempt to make even this area off limits.

 

Medical malpractice cuts to the heart of one limitation of medicine. Medicine is not perfect. It is still called practice. They don't have you sign a release before treatment because they like the way you sign your name. They are protecting themselves from Murphy's law.

 

Avoiding medical care for religious reasons does prevent many people from getting good treatment. But it also protects then from malpractice. How many lives would have been spared, if all those deaths from malpractice had been avoided by people deciding to wait and see if the body could heal itself? It adds up to more than a few tragic religious bias examples.

 

Medical Malpractice

 

As a matter of fact, medical malpractice has become the 3rd leading cause of death in America. Those 225,000 deaths due to medical malpractice are caused by these types of errors:

 

7,000 people die each year due to medication errors in hospitals

20,000 people die each year due to other types of errors in hospitals

12,000 people die each year due to unnecessary surgery

80,000 people die each year from nosocomial infections in hospitals

106,000 people die each year from adverse reactions to medications

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see how you could possibly say that, do you know him?

 

Mike, you are speaking in absolutes which could be extremely dangerous if anyone took your statements as well informed.

Yes, kidney failure and liver damage CAN be caused by drugs.

The above are not caused by all drug treatments.

Untreated or poorly treated type one diabetes will lead to kidney damage. Which is exactly what happened in the case of my BIL.

If the drugs conventional medicine perscribed caused the kidney damage, why did he get better after starting taking it once again?

 

To continue this argument, i would have to get my Naturopathic newsletters out and this takes time and effort.

 

However, I can give this information now about the recommended natural substances for diabetics to take as recommended by this naturopath:

 

Vanadyl Sulphate 100 mgs.

Gymnema Sylvestri 400 mgs

Chromium 400 mcgs

Alpha lipoic acid 800-1200 mgs

Glucomannan 1/2 ts disolved in water, 30-60 minutes before each meal

 

Anodyne+, hyperbaric oxygen therapy+, and EDTA chelation therapy for diabetic complications.

 

FYI, the HBOT is oxygen under pressure in a chamber.

Chelation IV is used to clean out the arteries.to improve circulation.

 

These are all NATURAL substances and special treatments for the last two.

 

There is 'no way' these substances or treatments could harm any patients.

 

This is advice by Dr. Julian Whitaker who has a clinic in California.

I recommend that any person taking this advice, get in touch with this Doctor first.

 

He is the best crusader on behalf of the Alternative health care practitioners.

 

Mike C

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To continue this argument, i would have to get my Naturopathic newsletters out and this takes time and effort.

 

However, I can give this information now about the recommended natural substances for diabetics to take as recommended by this naturopath:

 

Vanadyl Sulphate 100 mgs.

 

Vanadyl Sulphate is a synthetic version of a trace mineral, vanadium. It is a very interesting mineral as it does exhibit some insulin-like behavior.

Unfortunately it also exhibits side affects. Some of which include damage to DNA, blocking of protein synthesis and oxidation of lipids which "is considered a primary step in the development of cardiovascular disease." (source: Vanadium in diabetes: benefit or harm?, by John Walsh, covers vanadium and other trace minerals in diabetes.).

 

These are all NATURAL substances and special treatments for the last two.

 

I must admit I didn't look up any beyond the first as it contradicts both the above statement, and your next one:

There is 'no way' these substances or treatments could harm any patients.

 

However, even if there weren't sever side affects, my original fear is not that what they prescribe will cause harm (which it appears it may) it is that the lack of treatment with insulin leads to the harm.

 

Insulin, by the way, is a natural substance:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

According to the article I quoted, about malpractice being the 3rd cause of death in the US, does it mean that if one had a condition that was #5 on the list of causing death, and I went to seek medical treatment, in light of the malpractice rate, would that bump me up to number 3? Are #1 and #2 the safest for seeking medical help, in the light of malpractice, since it will bump you down to #3, to give you better odds?

 

This is the marvel of statistics. One can get irrational and it still appears to add up, based on comparing statistics. All I had to do is ignore the data that doesn't help my cause. All we need is the irrationality of any given political climate. If they are loud enough, so the voice of reason is not heard to help qualify the correlation, it becomes law. Then one can force others to do whatever, even if bumps up their risk of death to number 3.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...