Nature as GOD

[Overdog]

I think you are being clear, and are limited to the Western concepts of reality, and basing your arguments on what you think about God and the people who believe in God, and are not on basing your arguments on what I am saying. I don't think you have the information necessary to understanding what I am saying. Your argument regarding ego, is a million miles from what I am talking about.

 

It's not about what we think about God, or people who believe in God, if you read Sam Harris's book you would understand this. It is about morality. History is rife with examples of evil (if you will allow me to use the word) that is the direct result of people believing in things when there is no justification. Harris says it is a morale imperative opon those of us who are free of such unsubstantiated beliefs to challenge the unsubstantiated beliefs of others.

[nutronjon]

You are talking about god being something greater than some anthropomorphic being.

 

You are talking about avoiding limitations in our understanding, and discarding those preconceptions which are not at all likely to be accurate.

 

You are proposing that there is a great wealth of both insight and beauty in reason and in nature.

 

You are suggesting that without a clear view into the great rational complexity which is nature that we will fail as individuals and also collectively as a culture.

 

You are using the writings of seriously gifted writers and thinkers to show how you are not the first to propose this.

 

You are trying to share the passion and centeredness that you feel with others here in the fora so as they can potentially enjoy the same enrichment and connectedness which you yourself have found.

 

Don't tell me that I "just don't get it."

 

 

I want to know why understanding the beauty which is nature, which is this vast and awe inspiring universe in which we exist, requires some additional layer of needless and nondescriptive attribution which you choose to call god.

 

 

The reason for understanding is so we practice sanitation and don't kill people for being witches. The reason for understanding is so we have good laws, instead of tyrants. The reason for understanding is using reason to resolve our differences, instead of force, which altimately leads to negative consequences.

[nutronjon]

 

It's not about what we think about God, or people who believe in God, if you read Sam Harris's book you would understand this. It is about morality. History is rife with examples of evil (if you will allow me to use the word) that is the direct result of people believing in things when there is no justification. Harris says it is a morale imperative opon those of us who are free of such unsubstantiated beliefs to challenge the unsubstantiated beliefs of others.

 

Yes, that is what I am talking about. Thank you.

[REASON]

The reason for understanding is so we practice sanitation and don't kill people for being witches. The reason for understanding is so we have good laws, instead of tyrants. The reason for understanding is using reason to resolve our differences, instead of force, which altimately leads to negative consequences.

 

I agree with all of these points.

 

(By the way, I appreciate the the way in which you responded to may last post directed to you. I felt it was explanitory yet conciliatory. I apologize for insinuating your intent in your reply to the freezed one.)

 

Now, tell us in your own words how you feel when you are awe inspired by the beauty and wonderment of nature, the marvel of the vastness of space and time, the diveristy of life, and the complexities of interpersonal relationships. Tell us what it means for you, and why in your mind it feels like the symbiosis of reason and god.

 

I promise I will listen.

[freeztar]

Yes, that is what I am talking about. Thank you.

 

Huh? :naughty:

 

Do you know who Sam Harris is? He's a bonafide atheist!

[nutronjon]

Far from it. I simply have an expectation for people to use science to support the claims that they come to a science forum to make. If someone doesn't like that then they should wander off to some forum of faith and make their claims, not come here and expect us to change our rules for them. If you want to believe in a deity that's fine. If you want to come here and claim that deities exist then prove it and do so via science.

 

BTW, thanks for that badge of honor you left in my user profile :naughty:

 

Exactly, we should use science to understand God.

[InfiniteNow]

Exactly, we should use science to understand God.

 

Repeating yourself does not make it more real.

 

How about you use science to show that this "god" actually exists and you're not some delusional monkey?

[C1ay]

Exactly, we should use science to understand God.

 

Define God.

[Cathryn]

Hi All , I came looking for terra preta and have found God! Wonderful. Science itself is God, science is nature, nature is God. The acceptance of this will continue evolution of the human species in a positive way, if not the natural entropy of the system will be a negative. The big bang theory is consistent with this. It's happened before and it will happen again! World without end. Amen (bits of the bible are accurate, but not many).

[REASON]

Exactly, we should use science to understand God.

 

Allow me to try and clarify this statement if you will. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

What I hear you saying here is not that we are to use science to understand some external god, but rather through science and reason, what we come to understand about the natural universe is in fact an understaning of the nature of god.

 

Does this ring a bell for you, nutron?

[C1ay]

So is God simply another "word" for nature, a synonym, or something more? If it's just a synonym for nature then what's the point in using it when it carries such much other baggage with it?

[nutronjon]

I agree with all of these points.

 

(By the way, I appreciate the the way in which you responded to may last post directed to you. I felt it was explanitory yet conciliatory. I apologize for insinuating your intent in your reply to the freezed one.)

 

Now, tell us in your own words how you feel when you are awe inspired by the beauty and wonderment of nature, the marvel of the vastness of space and time, the diveristy of life, and the complexities of interpersonal relationships. Tell us what it means for you, and why in your mind it feels like the symbiosis of reason and god.

 

I promise I will listen.

 

That was so nice of you. :shrug: I have been through so many changes in my life, and studied so many things. It wouldn't be wholly correct for me to say what is so for me now, because that is like a snap shot and not the animated whole of what is so for me. However, pretty basic to me is, a very active inner child, who is just so excited to be here, (incarnate in this three diminsional reality). There is so much to know, it would take an eternity to know what there is to know.

 

Also basic to me is the Athena archtype. That is the name I would really rather use, Athena. She was the Goddess of Athens, the Goddess of Liberty, and Justice and Defense of those who stand for liberty and justice. That means I am more politically minded than theologically minded. I am more concerned about our understanding of democracy, than our understanding of God, but no one will discussion democracy, so I came to theology with the principles I want to discuss, and boy oh boy, has there been activity in these discussions. I think the feeling here is a real love and hope for humans. Yes, I can feel this in my heart, and a great sadness of all the wrongs that come out ignorance. But then I bounce back, to the idea that we are on the verge of a major consciousness shift that will be awesome. Man, these theology debates have been so pissy, compared to all the things we could be talking about. But until the concept of "reason, is the controlling force of the universe", is understood, there isn't much point in discussing anything.

 

I think we seriously need to change our understanding of God, so it is compatable with science, and then instead of Atheist and Christians and Muslims going over and over and over the same pissy argument about the existance of God, we can have discussions that advance our knowledge and actually put an end to stupid arguing. Using science to put an end to these arguments, means no more torrorist, no more stupid wars, no more human lies that get us into all this trouble.

 

:naughty: Thank you. I guess I feel like crying, because what I have said is so meaningful to me. Our world is in crisis, far more serious that ever before. There is going to be a mass die off and terrible suffering, if we don't stop our stupid bickering, and apply ourselves to limiting human suffering. Reason is the controlling force of the universe and I sure wish people acted like they understood what that means, and determined to use reason to deal with our present crisis.

[nutronjon]

So is God simply another "word" for nature, a synonym, or something more? If it's just a synonym for nature then what's the point in using it when it carries such much other baggage with it?

 

Drop the baggage. Imagine what would happen if more and more people agreed God exist, now let use science to learn we can about this God. Science, not the Torah, or the Christian bible, or the Koran, or another other holy book held more important than all the others. Like if someone wants to study a holy book, study them all and look for the agreements, because if a God ever spoke to humans, he spoke to all of them. He didn't speak to a few people and not all the others. He never had favorite people, if such a humanized God exist at all. It is by assuming if God spoke to humans, he spoke to all them, and then looking for agreements in what people have held true, that we can move towards truth. Applying science to all concepts of truth.

 

The wisdom is not limited to a few holy books, but is in mythology and folk lore and philosophy, and this needs to go with science.

 

The story of "Pandora and the Box" is more helpful to us than Adam and Eve. It is basically the same story, but told from different cultural points of view, and appears to have begun as a Sumerian story. Any way, Zeus was really distressed when a god gave man fire, because Zeus feared, with the technology of fire, man would discover all technologies and than rival the gods. This in fact is what happened. We are now technlogically smart, but lack the wisdom to use this technology. We used it for "Shock and Awe" in Iraq, instead of a pursuit of alternative energies, and means of feeding people, and providing them with clean water, and keeping them healthy and happy. As world populations continue to increase exponentially, and our resources decrease exponentially, we are completely unprepared to cope with the crisis.

 

The world is radically different from when Columbus discovered America, and there the US is using a military theory about overwhelming the enemy with military might, on people who were not the enemy of the US, as though we can still benefit from acting like Roman or Spanish conquers. We can blow up the world many times over, but can't provide the basic needs of life to humanity. That, is why we need theology, and to consider, reason, is the controlling force of the universe. Being technological smart but unwise is not the way to go. It can lead to our dstruction instead of our survival.

[nutronjon]

Hi All , I came looking for terra preta and have found God! Wonderful. Science itself is God, science is nature, nature is God. The acceptance of this will continue evolution of the human species in a positive way, if not the natural entropy of the system will be a negative. The big bang theory is consistent with this. It's happened before and it will happen again! World without end. Amen (bits of the bible are accurate, but not many).

 

Welcome Cathryn

 

Now where is Buffy? I think she got that point from the beginning, but hasn't returned to stupid squabbling.

[InfiniteNow]

I can only conclude that you have remained deaf and blind to every single post given in response to your own.

[REASON]

:naughty: Thank you. I guess I feel like crying, because what I have said is so meaningful to me. Our world is in crisis, far more serious that ever before. There is going to be a mass die off and terrible suffering, if we don't stop our stupid bickering, and apply ourselves to limiting human suffering. Reason is the controlling force of the universe and I sure wish people acted like they understood what that means, and determined to use reason to deal with our present crisis.

 

I hear what your saying, nutron. Good post. I share much of your concern. I too believe in the value of reason. It is one of the primary reasons I chose the term as a moniker (in all honesty, the choice of this moniker has been a bit of a burden for me because I feel it carries a lot of responsibility in terms of representing a reasonable point of view).

 

I'm glad you spoke from the heart instead of sounding like you're making matter of fact claims. To me there is a difference.

 

As C1ay just mentioned above, and what I know has been stated prior, is that when you reduce your concept down to it's bare essential, you are left with a simple exchange of terminology - God for Nature, Nature for God, reason as the controlling force.

 

What many have been arguing is that this exchange in terminology is unnecessary and can actually add confusion to the discussion, as I'm sure you've gathered by now, because of the current and long standing connotation of the term God. Defining nature as God does only one thing - it gives nature power. This is because we have been taught all our lives that God is synonymous with power. To redefine God as synonymous with nature, in reality, does nothing to enhance either. Think about what I am saying with that point.

 

I believe it is possible to shift societal consciousness toward reason without the necessity of redefining nature. Instead we need to categorize God for exactly what it is - an idea. With this understanding, we can clear the way of religious dogmatism and allow reason to be the way in which we construct our dialogue and orient our existence.

[C1ay]

Drop the baggage. Imagine what would happen if more and more people agreed God exist, now let use science to learn we can about this God. Science, not the Torah, or the Christian bible, or the Koran, or another other holy book held more important than all the others. Like if someone wants to study a holy book, study them all and look for the agreements, because if a God ever spoke to humans, he spoke to all of them. He didn't speak to a few people and not all the others. He never had favorite people, if such a humanized God exist at all. It is by assuming if God spoke to humans, he spoke to all them, and then looking for agreements in what people have held true, that we can move towards truth. Applying science to all concepts of truth.

 

There's no evidence of any such God so there's no need to use the term God as a synonym for nature. Let nature be nature and let the believers of mythical deities keep their term. We don't need it in order to apply science to nature. Using the term God just keeps dragging the discussion into an area where science doesn't apply.