Nature as GOD

[Thunderbird]

Quote:

 

...but I’m not sure who you think in the conversation needs to hear this

 

Anyone who believes in a god needs to hear it.

 

 

 

I agree with what the man is saying he speaks for me... it is truth, and I do not think believing in god makes you a better person. What I am concerned with are two things. Firstly, Grouping all people that attend church or profess religious beliefs as fundamentalist cretins, this is stereotyping. The problem arises when you start espousing “The way I believe, or think is the way you should believe or think.

A quiet community church can, and does, and has done, more good than you can imagine. Working as a community volunteer I know this first hand.

Secondly, to address that beliefs should always be grounded in verifiable facts, this is true in the case of the scientific community, but is it not always the best formula for everone in the community.

I work to help ex-offenders reintegrate back into the community. For the most part they were brought up in environments that were not the most supportive, some were brought up in a real hell. Abuses you could not even imagine.

 

One young man I was helping to find work, had spent most of his adult life in prison he was having allot of trouble adjusting to the outside, he seemed to be mentally strong so I was a bit surprised when he admitted to contemplating suicide now and again, because he felt that he was not going to be able to make it on the outside, and may turn back to drugs.

 

I set him up with a good consular , one that utilizes a “systems” approach , all very scientific. I also asked if he attended church, he stated that he was an atheist. I told him it has nothing to do with believing in God its about believing in your self. I knew that the church would give him something he never had, a sense of family belonging and purpose. Ask anyone that works in the community they will tell you this, it is a true fact.

 

 

If you have always had good connections, family, freinds, to draw from the church may not be needed by you, on the other hand its pretty awful for someone that has been lucky enough to be born in a loving home to call someone that needs religion and the church stupid.

 

I followed up by saying that I could not tell him anything about God, but I could tell him about why he was here. You are here because thousands of people struggled against all odds to live. Disease, famine, wars, injustice, back breaking work, raising children, bearing children taking care and sacrificing themselves over and over so you could have a chance for life. A much better life than they had.

 

Imagine if you did throw it all away and then after death had to face all those ancestors that endured greater challenges than you did. You would be thought of as big pussy wouldn't you. “couldn't find a job, I had to protect my family from lions” “ your uncle touched your pee pee, I witnessed my mother being raped by Cossacks” “ low self esteem, I spent my life as a slave.”

 

The true religion is realizing two things... we need other people in our lives and we need to respect our life as a sacred trust given to us from our forefathers and foremothers, we are indebted to them, this is a truth. The question is how far back can you go before you say the chain of respect and reverence comes to an end. How can you calculate the sum total amount mathematically. What term can be used for this unkown quantity X it cannot be calculated or measured, it is however true.:)

 

Yes it is a mystery , but I do know that every time I learn more about our cosmos and the struggles life had to endure for me to be here, the more reverence and humility I feel for every impulse, dream, thought, aspiration and faithful action that people have, had, or will have.

Is it true that you will meet your dead ancestors after you die, and make an account of your responsibility for your life and how you lived ? I don't know, but I do know that we should live our lives as if we do owe a debt, and this debt goes further back than we can imagine.

[freeztar]

That's all fine and well TBird, but the subject of this thread is "Nature as God", not "Religion/church benefits the community".

[Moontanman]

I agree with what the man is saying he speaks for me... it is truth, and I do not think believing in god makes you a better person. What I am concerned with are two things. Firstly, Grouping all people that attend church or profess religious beliefs as fundamentalist cretins, this is stereotyping. The problem arises when you start espousing “The way I believe, or think is the way you should believe or think.

A quiet community church can and do more good than you can imagine. Working as a community volunteer I know this first hand.

Secondly, to address that beliefs should always be grounded in verifiable facts, this is true in the case of the scientific community, but is it not always the best formula for everone in the community ?

I work to help ex-offenders reintegrate back into the community. For the most part they were brought up in environments that were not the most supportive, some were brought up in a real hell. Abuses you could not even imagine.

 

One young man I was helping to find work, had spent most of his adult life in prison he was having allot of trouble adjusting to the outside, he seemed to be mentally strong so I was a bit surprised when he admitted to contemplating suicide now and again, because he felt that he was not going to be able to make it on the outside, and may turn back to drugs.

 

I set him up with a good consular , one that utilizes a “systems” approach , all very scientific. I also asked if he attended church, he stated that he was an atheist. I told him it has nothing to do with believing in God its about believing in your self. I knew that the church would give him something he never had, a sense of family belonging and purpose. Ask anyone that works in the community they will tell you this, it is a true fact.

 

 

If you have always had good connections, family, freinds, to draw from the church may not be needed by you, on the other hand its pretty awful for someone that has been lucky enough to be born in a loving home to call someone that needs religion and the church stupid.

 

I followed up by saying that I could not tell him anything about God, but I could tell him about why he was here. You are here because thousands of people struggled against all odds to live. Disease, famine, wars, injustice, back breaking work, raising children, bearing children taking care and sacrificing themselves over and over so you could have a chance for life. A much better life than they had.

 

Imagine if you did throw it all away and then after death had to face all those ancestors that endured greater challenges than you did. You would be thought of as big pussy wouldn't you. “couldn't find a job, I had to protect my family from lions” “ your uncle touched your pee pee, I witnessed my mother being raped by Cossacks” “ low self esteem, I spent my life as a slave.”

 

The true religion is realizing two things... we need other people in our lives and we need to respect our life as a sacred trust given to us from our forefathers and foremothers, we are indebted to them, this is a truth. The question is how far back can you go before you say the chain of respect and reverence comes to an end. How can you calculate the sum total amount mathematically. What term can be used for this unkown quantity X it cannot be calculated or measured, it is however true.:)

 

Yes it is a mystery , but I do know that every time I learn more about our cosmos and the struggles life had to endure for me to be here, the more reverence and humility I feel for every impulse, dream, thought, aspiration and faithful action that people have, had, or will have.

Is it true that you will meet your dead ancestors after you die, and make an account of your responsibility for your life and how you lived ? I don't know, but I do know that we should live our lives as if we do owe a debt, and this debt goes father back than we can imagine.

 

I was raise in the middle of one of those living hells, and God and Religion was at teh root of it. They never offered any help, refused to help when I asked for it and helped the status quo to continue.

[Thunderbird]

I was raise in the middle of one of those living hells, and God and Religion was at teh root of it. They never offered any help, refused to help when I asked for it and helped the status quo to continue.

Did anyone help you ?

[Thunderbird]

That's all fine and well TBird, but the subject of this thread is "Nature as God", not "Religion/church benefits the community".

 

Then you should have realized this was a responce to Infinitenow's utube post

which was about, Religion/church does not benefit the community.:shrug:

 

I encourage you, and everyone else, to review the video below. If you are TRULY interested in improving yourself and this culture, then perhaps watch the whole thing, and not just Part 2 of 8 which I've posted below.

[freeztar]

Then you should have realized this was a responce to Infinitenow's utube post

which was about, Religion/church does not benefit the community.:shrug:

 

 

I didn't see the video.

Just so you know, I do think that religion can benefit a community.

Anyhow, these things have been discussed in the following thread:

http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/13523-your-opinion-religion-good-bad-overall.html

 

I suggest taking up this conversation there (after reading through the whole thread of course).

[InfiniteNow]

Then you should have realized this was a responce to Infinitenow's utube post

which was about, Religion/church does not benefit the community.:shrug:

 

That's not what the video I posted was about. You might want to try watching it again, and potentially the other parts too, as I suggested originally.

 

The section I shared was about the fact that there really is no need to respect other people's beliefs, only their right to believe what they want (but not the beliefs themselves). It discussed how we don't do this anywhere else in society accept when discussing religion and god, and that we should stop giving them an unearned free pass and treat it like everything else... being open, honest, and sincere with our criicisms.

 

 

Also, it's "YouTube."

[nutronjon]

I agree with what the man is saying he speaks for me... it is truth, and I do not think believing in god makes you a better person. What I am concerned with are two things. Firstly, Grouping all people that attend church or profess religious beliefs as fundamentalist cretins, this is stereotyping. The problem arises when you start espousing “The way I believe, or think is the way you should believe or think.

A quiet community church can, and does, and has done, more good than you can imagine. Working as a community volunteer I know this first hand.

Secondly, to address that beliefs should always be grounded in verifiable facts, this is true in the case of the scientific community, but is it not always the best formula for everone in the community.

I work to help ex-offenders reintegrate back into the community. For the most part they were brought up in environments that were not the most supportive, some were brought up in a real hell. Abuses you could not even imagine.

 

One young man I was helping to find work, had spent most of his adult life in prison he was having allot of trouble adjusting to the outside, he seemed to be mentally strong so I was a bit surprised when he admitted to contemplating suicide now and again, because he felt that he was not going to be able to make it on the outside, and may turn back to drugs.

 

I set him up with a good consular , one that utilizes a “systems” approach , all very scientific. I also asked if he attended church, he stated that he was an atheist. I told him it has nothing to do with believing in God its about believing in your self. I knew that the church would give him something he never had, a sense of family belonging and purpose. Ask anyone that works in the community they will tell you this, it is a true fact.

 

 

If you have always had good connections, family, freinds, to draw from the church may not be needed by you, on the other hand its pretty awful for someone that has been lucky enough to be born in a loving home to call someone that needs religion and the church stupid.

 

I followed up by saying that I could not tell him anything about God, but I could tell him about why he was here. You are here because thousands of people struggled against all odds to live. Disease, famine, wars, injustice, back breaking work, raising children, bearing children taking care and sacrificing themselves over and over so you could have a chance for life. A much better life than they had.

 

Imagine if you did throw it all away and then after death had to face all those ancestors that endured greater challenges than you did. You would be thought of as big pussy wouldn't you. “couldn't find a job, I had to protect my family from lions” “ your uncle touched your pee pee, I witnessed my mother being raped by Cossacks” “ low self esteem, I spent my life as a slave.”

 

The true religion is realizing two things... we need other people in our lives and we need to respect our life as a sacred trust given to us from our forefathers and foremothers, we are indebted to them, this is a truth. The question is how far back can you go before you say the chain of respect and reverence comes to an end. How can you calculate the sum total amount mathematically. What term can be used for this unkown quantity X it cannot be calculated or measured, it is however true.:shrug:

 

Yes it is a mystery , but I do know that every time I learn more about our cosmos and the struggles life had to endure for me to be here, the more reverence and humility I feel for every impulse, dream, thought, aspiration and faithful action that people have, had, or will have.

Is it true that you will meet your dead ancestors after you die, and make an account of your responsibility for your life and how you lived ? I don't know, but I do know that we should live our lives as if we do owe a debt, and this debt goes father back than we can imagine.

 

 

Wow, I really like what you said! Yes, holding these kind of thoughts, would make us more just and increase our liberty. It is far better, then thinking we are worms, or that "those people" are as worms, deserving of being exploited, worked to death, tortured, raped, killed, etc.. That of which you speak is the difference between being as a technologically correct NAZI, or a scientist who values the concept of God and takes care to benefit humanity. It is more a matter of heart than just intellect.

 

The Spirit of America is understood my understanding Latin. When we add and "e" to moral we get morale, that high spirited feeling that comes out of believing we have done the right thing. That is the Spirit of America.

[InfiniteNow]

It is far better, then thinking we are worms, or that "those people" are as worms, deserving of being exploited, worked to death, tortured, raped, killed, etc.. That of which you speak is the difference between being as a technologically correct NAZI, or a scientist who values the concept of God and takes care to benefit humanity.

Why do you continue to inherently imply that those who lack a belief in god cannot be moral? Why do you continue to imply that all who do believe in god are themselves moral? Why do you assert that humans are somehow special?

 

 

The distaste your posts cause in my mouth is palpable. Not only are you arrogant and wrong with your words, but you're completely deluded into thinking they are the truth.

 

I'll start preparing my retort for this suggested Nazi/atheism relationship you've continued making.

[nutronjon]

I hear what your saying, nutron. Good post. I share much of your concern. I too believe in the value of reason. It is one of the primary reasons I chose the term as a moniker (in all honesty, the choice of this moniker has been a bit of a burden for me because I feel it carries a lot of responsibility in terms of representing a reasonable point of view).

 

I'm glad you spoke from the heart instead of sounding like you're making matter of fact claims. To me there is a difference.

 

As C1ay just mentioned above, and what I know has been stated prior, is that when you reduce your concept down to it's bare essential, you are left with a simple exchange of terminology - God for Nature, Nature for God, reason as the controlling force.

 

What many have been arguing is that this exchange in terminology is unnecessary and can actually add confusion to the discussion, as I'm sure you've gathered by now, because of the current and long standing connotation of the term God. Defining nature as God does only one thing - it gives nature power. This is because we have been taught all our lives that God is synonymous with power. To redefine God as synonymous with nature, in reality, does nothing to enhance either. Think about what I am saying with that point.

 

I believe it is possible to shift societal consciousness toward reason without the necessity of redefining nature. Instead we need to categorize God for exactly what it is - an idea. With this understanding, we can clear the way of religious dogmatism and allow reason to be the way in which we construct our dialogue and orient our existence.

 

Darn I am out of time again- but doesn't nature have power? Doesn't knowledge of it empower us? Isn't understanding why things are as they are, slightly important to us? Who is redefining nature? Who separated nature from God? Who has the right to define God?

[InfiniteNow]

In the meantime, you seriously need to watch this and try to learn from the positions shared:

 

Does God Exist? | Events recordings | American Jewish University ( AJULA ) formerly University of Judaism

 

 

Your logic above is incomprehensible, and based on so many flawed, yet simultaneously accpeted premises that your conclusions are inherently flawed as well.

 

 

The above is the full debate, just under 2 hours long, and worth the watch.

 

 

The much shorter sections of the debate which are specific to your underlying tone about Stalin and Hitler and your negative slant on atheism using them as your props are linked below:

 

 

YouTube - Sam Harris defends atheists AND Christians from past tyrants http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcY5SIfOkEg

 

 

The earlier exchange which prompted that question:

 

YouTube - Sam Harris vs David Wolpe 04 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrORCGEumto&feature=related

 

 

 

 

 

Further, if you are moving forward accepting that a belief in god is the basis of good things, then you must by default also except how that same belief quickly results in bad things.

 

YouTube - Christopher Hitchens on Books & Ideas (2 of 3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTPKIIaWSn8&feature=related

[InfiniteNow]

And, ON TOP OF ALL OF THAT, you have yet to show that accepting the concept of god as valid has ANY MERIT WHATSOEVER.

 

 

:shrug:

[Buffy]

Be careful what you wish for:

Who has the right to define God?

That's kinda the point everyone's trying to make here.

 

Personally, I'm fine with Nature is God, but as C1ay points out that's an *opinion* that is unsupported, and I think definitionally, unsupportable.

 

Unlike some folks, I think you have a right to believe that, but I'll agree that you can't make other people accept it as a given or even consider it as a possibility without evidence (to reiterate, I agree with the notion that meta-physics--by definition--is not provable).

 

I'll also point out that this thread is a wonderful example of how screaming at people and calling them names is an unsuccessful strategy in convincing humans to change their minds, as has been shown by 50 years of psychological and sociological studies.

 

On the other hand, people are free to do stupid things if they want to. No rule against that.

 

A braggart, a rogue, a villain, that fights by the book of arithmetic! Why the devil came you between us? :shrug:

Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

I'll also point out that this thread is a wonderful example of how screaming at people and calling them names is an unsuccessful strategy in convincing humans to change their minds, as has been shown by 50 years of psychological and sociological studies.

 

I can see by your conclusion above that you've completely failed to account for all of those 3rd party spectators who've been viewing the thread without themselves participating in it.

[Buffy]

I can see by your conclusion above that you've completely failed to account for all of those 3rd party spectators who've been viewing the thread without themselves participating in it.

I strongly support your right to say that! :evil:

 

Of course it is an unsupported opinion! :cheer:

 

Did you find me in yourself, sir? or were you taught to find me? The search, sir, was profitable, :shrug:

Buffy

[InfiniteNow]

Errmmm.... Yeah.

 

Can the members get back on topic now, madame staff member? </rhetorical>

[Buffy]

Can the members get back on topic now, madame staff member? </rhetorical>

Absolutely!

 

So, hey all you boffins! Be my guest and get back on topic! <cracks_whip/> :shrug:

 

Without discipline, there's no life at all, :cheer:

Buffy