Planting trees-A good thing?- A bad thing?

[Michaelangelica]

Planting trees-A good thing?- A bad thing?

:hihi:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/opinion/16caldeira.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

 

Trees May Be Bad for You - New York Times

 

WA Country Hour - 25/08/2004: Rabbit proof fence rain variation

 

Trees: Guardians of the Earth

 

Nature Conservation Council of NSW - Woodchipping in South East Forests

 

http://www.rainforest-crc.jcu.edu.au/infosheets/cloud_forests.pdf

:lol:

 

(I still think we need an environment forum)

[Ganoderma]

i have only read the first one so far.

 

In contrast, tropical forests appear to be doubly valuable to the earth’s climate system. Not only do they store copious amounts of carbon, the roots of tropical trees reach down deep, drawing up water that they evaporate through their leaves. In the atmosphere, this water may form clouds that reflect sunlight back to space, helping to cool the earth.

 

in Al Gores book "An inconvenient truth" he seems to think that water in the atmosphere is a natural greenhouse gas. his logic is the sun is coming in and traped below the clouds.....

 

i see how colour and reflectivity can be a big impact, but if there are lots of various things in the air it is going to be reflected far less. the way i see it is this. if we stop putting water in the air we die (i know we dont put it in there....you know what i mean). if we stop putting other emissions in the air, CO2 for example, we live. Hope that came out as readable, its late sorry.

[cwes99_03]

Ok, I perused the first as well, and this thought is similar to one I had on an earlier thread where I suggested that by melting and plowing snow from city streets and rooftops we are reducing the albedo of the earth.

 

Now there is one major difference between reducing the albedo with blacktop and reducing the albedo with green plants. Blacktop absorbs and reradiates the absorbed sunlight in the form of heat. Tree leaves absorb sunlight and store the energy in the cells of the organism (for the most part) only reradiating as much heat as cannot be consumed by the biological processes of the plant in question.

 

Thus the article doesn't take into consideration the actual affect of planting a tree on the radiant heating of the earth.

[Turtle]

Planting trees-A good thing?- A bad thing?

:eek:

 

Just as you say, :eek: It's just so completely arbitrarily relative to specifics. What kind of trees? Where? How many? For how long? When?

 

Contrary to one of your articles, here in the Pacific Northwest US, much of the wood for paper pulp is grown for that purpose. Sustainable yield forestry I think they call it.

 

I happened to catch a time filling bit on TV yesterday or so done by Penn and Teller about paper recycling. Woven into the comedy was a preponderance of evidence that recycling paper wastes more energy than it saves. :cup: Who ya gonna call? :doh:

[PedroH]

I think trees are good most of the time.Even when they are burned down, life grows from their ashes(what beautiful phrase,I think I'm going to cry:D ).

Young trees helps to put some oxygen into the environment and consumes a lot of carbon dioxide;and grown up trees are very balanced(consumes as much oxygen as they "spit out",at least most of them). I don't think trees could contribute significantly to global warming or anything harmful to other live beings nowadays.

But everything is possible,I don't think those articles really prove trees are a bad thing,they didn't make tests to really prove it with numbers.Even if they are,in a short period they can be useful untill we reduce our CO2 emissions.If you have some other links I would like to take a look.

[PedroH]

Why my post doesn't have the spaces I put in it?Well,anyway,it's understandable.:hyper:

[Racoon]

I agree with Turtle in what trees? and where?

 

I recall a docu on species of Fir trees in Africa, somewhere, being a problem.. where they are normally welcomed around this region...

They draw up too much moisture and displace local trees, along the mountains.

 

Properly planting a tree is a good thing!

 

:hyper:

[Michaelangelica]

I agree with Turtle in what trees? and where?

:

so in some places

 

and some types of tree are bad?

 

I always assumed that it was a good idea but some say no.

 

Do Trees Pollute?

Do Trees Pollute? The role trees play in ozone pollution. Eric Taylor. Forestry Specialist ... trees do in fact contribute significantly to ozone .

..

extensionforestry.tamu.edu/publications/pdfs/805-112.pdf

 

What Can Trees Do For You?

 

* Shade

Trees make our homes and neighborhoods cooler, reducing utility bills in the

* Economically Valuable

 

* Trees are natural filters of all too familiar city sounds. From cars driving

 

Our water is made cleaner by the presence of trees, especially trees near watersheds or other drainage areas.

 

trees help to stabilize soils by gripping soil particles with their roots.

 

* Trees also protect us against wind by diverting it over or around us. Evergreen species planted on the north side of homes in Stillwater can reduce cold North winds during the winter. Quality of Life

 

What Can Trees Do For You

 

Hippyshopper: Planting trees may do more harm than good

... also in California, says that trees reduce greenhouse gasses by taking in ... Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Planting trees may do

...

wirelessdigest.typepad.com/hippyshopper/2006/12/planting_trees_.html

[Cedars]

I wondered exactly what Turtle did. What trees? Why, where.....

 

Example: Dutch elm disease wiped out huge numbers of trees in the Minneapolis/St Paul area. Beautiful trees that worked like a canopy over the streets of the city. You could drive miles under the shaded streets of these trees. It was a terrible mistake having this one species of (fast growing) tree enhancing the beauty of this area. Now they are just empty streets. Some areas have been replanted with a wider variety of tree to try to avoid such an impact in the future. Its going to be 40 years before the canopy returns. I have no idea what the energy consumption impact was from the loss of these magnificent shade trees during the summer air conditioning drain. Live and learn.

 

 

Back in the 70s there began a push for tree planting by individuals. One of the positives promoted was trees increase land value when selling your home later. The dismal (for me) part was watching all these same and imported types of conifers being planted as screens between your home and the roads. The lack of imagination by the average home owner resulted in row after row of christmas trees rather than diversity. I am lucky. The people who owned this land before I was here valued diversity and I have 3 types of conifer in different areas. Last year, one of my neighbors stopped by and commented on the Juniper trees (approx 45 years old now) and how diverse they are from the average screen they see planted elsewhere in the neighborhood. Beautiful trees and asymmetrical. But extremely slow growing. For me, worth the wait.

 

Then there is the aspect of planting for wildlife. A wide mix of tree types provides the most habitat for the greater variety of wildlife. But this only works on a larger scale. If my five acres is surrounded by 50 acres of christmas tree, I will not have the diversity of the areas which are 50 acres of diversity surrounded by 500 acres of christmas tree.

 

Even in city parks I am somewhat disapointed in the lack of diversity. I think alot could be done by the general public to promote a better regional planning for these spots surrounded by a bunch of people.

 

Trees, in general are not bad. They store carbon, the use CO2 and produce oxygen. What I dont know is the ratio. For my fish tank (which has live plants) there is a balance that needs to be achieved. The plants need CO2 for growth and produce oxygen during the day. But at night this reverses and the plants take oxygen from the water, but not at such a rate to oxygen deprive the fish (but I have ariation). I dont know what this ratio is for land plants/trees. I do not know if the trees take as much oxygen as they produce. I also dont know if some types of tree produce more oxygen/take more CO2 than others.

 

There is alot of value in planting trees, but there are also things that need to be taken into consideration when planning this type of long term commitment. We have gone thru the 'just plant a tree' cycle and learned there is more to this issue than that.

 

Hopefully, later today I will get a chance to scan a copy of the MN DNR pamplet "Managing your Woodland for Wildlife" and link to it. I searched their website and couldnt find it there. It was a freebie handout at the state fair I picked up one year.

[Buffy]

People can get really worked up about trees:

They're putting a new sports facility on campus in Berkeley and the radical greens, er, whites, er...anyway, are putting up quite a protest. Oddly enough if you look at pictures of the East Bay from a hundred years ago or more, its amazing: no trees there:

Source: USGS

 

Now its completely covered with trees except for the houses.

 

And of course there's these "weeds" called Eucalyptus that invaded California from Australia (and you Aussies claim not to be imperialist!)....Gross!

 

I like trees, but trees are not universally good....

 

Go weed a book,

Buffy

[wine]

Buffy I'd give you rep but I can't. Beautiful photograph. Reminds me of my childhood.

[Michaelangelica]

February 11

In Niger, Trees and Crops Help Turn Back the Desert

 

In this dust-choked region, long seen as an increasingly barren wasteland decaying into desert, millions of trees are flourishing, thanks in part to poor farmers whose simple methods cost little or nothing at all.

 

Better conservation and improved rainfall have

MARC: In Niger, Trees and Crops Help Turn Back the Desert

 

Here is the artcile in full

 

Michael Kamber for The New York Times

 

A market in Droum is bountiful, thanks to increased crop yields, largely because newly planted trees have helped retain the soil and water.

 

Better conservation and improved rainfall have led to at least 7.4 million newly tree-covered acres in Niger, researchers have found, achieved largely without relying on the large-scale planting of trees or other expensive methods often advocated by African politicians and aid groups for halting desertification, the process by which soil loses its fertility.

 

Recent studies of vegetation patterns, based on detailed satellite images and on-the-ground inventories of trees, have found that Niger, a place of persistent hunger and deprivation, has recently added millions of new trees and is now far greener than it was 30 years ago.

 

Mises Economics Blog: Human Action in Niger

[Ganoderma]

Have there been any studies for the amount of carbon absorbed by coniferous forests and deciduous forests? I assume that deciduous would be far superior as they shed their leaves making them take carbon out of the air each year and deposit it on the ground. There was a good article about this and the release of carbon with fires, but I can’t find it. There is probably lots though. I would also think that being a deciduous forest would be better in the bottom as well as they allow more plants to grow, unlike many pines and cedars which shed needles that deter other plants from growing. Would it be safe to assume these 2 reasons are why they say the tropical forests are the bulk of land co2 transformation and don’t seem to think too highly of the northern deciduous forests?

[Michaelangelica]

Have there been any studies for the amount of carbon absorbed by coniferous forests

 

Don't know

There is this

we'd only need 34% forestation in the United States to make us CO2 negative, and an additional 1.5% per year to keep up with our increased usage.

Nobel Recipient-Plant Trees, a lot of Trees

 

Some say that trees don't hold on to CO2 long enough or are not CO2 'positive'. Is this correct?

 

I have seen some silly well-meaning things like people planting trees under huge figs in parks; or vast trees under power lines.

 

Many farmers in Australia use a mass of mixed tree seed, short lived trees, nitrogen fixing trees and longer lived mixes of trees native to the area. These are planted in broad strips by disbursing the seed behind a tractor. You can plant a lot of trees quickly that way.

[Michaelangelica]

Real-World CO2-Induced Growth Enhancements of Oak and Pine Trees in Missouri, USA Reference

Voelker, S.L., Muzika, R.-M., Guyette, R.P. and Stambaugh, M.C. 2006. Historical CO2 growth enhancement declines with age in Quercus and Pinus. Ecological Monographs 76: 549-564.

 

What was done

Working with two species of oak (Quercus velutina Lam. and Quercus coccinea Muench.) and one of pine (Pinus echinata Mill.) in the Ozark Mountains of Missouri, USA, the authors cross-dated a large number of increment cores and aligned the ring-width data by pith date for accurate age-constant assessments of growth over the past 150 years, thereby circumventing "changes in growth trend associated with differences in physiological functioning during development, as well as the need for statistical detrending that removes an unknown degree of long-term environmental signal, the so-called segment length curse that applies to standard dendrochronological investigations." In addition, they similarly analyzed previously acquired data for P. echinata stretching back in time to nearly AD 1600.

 

What was learned

Voelker et al. report that since 1850 the stem growth of the three species has risen "coincidently with increases in atmospheric CO2," such that the overall trend in ring-width in recent years is "nearly two times that" experienced prior to 1850. In addition, they note that the "long-term increases in radial growth appear unrelated to historical disturbance levels for the region, to long-term changes in relevant climatic variables, or to productivity of sites sampled."

 

What it means

The four Department of Forestry researchers from the University of Missouri suggest that as the atmosphere's CO2 concentration continues to rise, aided by continued nitrogen deposition, it will likely "stimulate further increases in the rates of stand development and carbon storage," and that "some tree species historically selected against [our italics] in the uplands of this system (Acer rubrum L. or Acer saccharum Marsh.) could compete more effectively."

CO2 Science

(Good website if you are interested in CO2)

[Michaelangelica]

Inside Bay Area - Global-warming skeptics take aim at trees

Global-warming skeptics take aim at trees

Scientific research simplified into plea to cut down northern forests Forest study brings glee to global warming skeptics

By Ian Hoffman, STAFF WRITER

Article Last Updated: 04/10/2007 12:12:20 PM PDT

 

Global-warming skeptics are gleefully seizing on the latest study of trees and climate to try out a new motto for living in a warmer world: Cut trees, not SUVs!

 

In a report published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, researchers at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and the Carnegie Institution at Stanford University conclude that tropical jungles dramatically cool the planet.

 

But in snowier locales, forests appear to have a warming effect, scientists said.

Many companies have started signing up for reforestation and afforestation projects in the US and Europe to offset their carbon footprint. Will this work?

 

Our recent modelling study suggests that these projects in the temperate and boreal zones are not going to help to slow down global warming. Location is the key to the success of these projects, and planting new trees in regions outside the tropics will actually warm the Earth.

 

Forests affect climate in three different ways: they take up CO2 from the atmosphere and cool the planet; they evaporate water to the atmosphere and increase cloudiness, which also cools the planet; and they are dark and absorb a lot of sunlight, warming the Earth.

 

The carbon offsetting programs that promote planting trees are taking only the first effect into account.

 

When the changes to the surface properties are also taken into account, it is clear only tropical rainforests are strongly beneficial to slow down global warming. In the tropics, in addition to absorbing carbon dioxide, trees promote clouds which help to cool the planet.

http://mail.google.com/mail/?view=page&name=js&ver=bb2yck0rm5co

 

No one seems to take into account the "Terra preta effect" of trees.

Temperate trees if turned into charcoal would sequester carbon.

 

Then too they might promote bacterial activity in soil producing co2.??

 

Lots of sums need to be done.

[Michaelangelica]

Some serious research is being done at the University of western Sydney on how much carbon Trees capture.

 

I didn't hear them mention soil zoology. Amazingly they may be ignoriing this variable.

Catalyst: C02 Tree Capture – how much carbon dioxide do trees really capture? - ABC TV Science

It will be interesting to follow their research over the years.

 

C02 Tree Capture – how much carbon dioxide do trees really capture?

Reporter: Mark Horstman

Producer: Paul Schneller

Researcher: Holly Trueman

Camera: Ian Warburton

Sound: Grant Roberts

Editor: Andrew Hope

 

Transcript

Related Info

 

19 April 2007

We like to assume that planting trees will help to keep carbon out of the atmosphere and reverse global warming.

 

Twelve climate time machines in a western Sydney paddock are putting that assumption to the test.

 

Inside them, eucalypt trees are breathing the atmosphere of the future.

 

The aim is to discover what happens to Australian trees as atmospheric carbon dioxide levels continue to increase and droughts become more severe.

 

Can we rely on the world’s forests to act as carbon ‘sinks’ and absorb our excess greenhouse emissions?

 

Mark Horstman reports on an Australian experiment that’s looking for answers.

 

And Buffy I am told by American friends that the eucalyptus were imported to make wagon wheels! Now who sold them that porky?

 

When I visited USA and hit California and SF I was so disappointed as the place looked so much like Australia. Twenty four hours folded in a torture seat for this! (Fortunately I mainly came to see Disneyland and chipmunks.) Beautiful (far healthier than here,- you left the bugs with us) gums were everywhere.

 

On imperialism I have an interesting video I will post for you in the thread.