Does Capitalism have any business in a New World Order?

[MagnetMan]

Capitalism was an excellent tool as a domestic system of exchange during the era of nation building. It encouraged entrepreneurship, invention and the rapid growth of the technologies needed to develop the colonies.

 

Capitalism turned lethal when it went international, ending up in a lost generation of Cold War spending that bankrupted the two International super-powers, threatened the extinction of all life on earth, and left the next generations neck deep in debt.

 

Capitalism is an artiifcial obstruction in the new era of globalization. It is completely incapable of putting the whole world to work in the increasingly urgent business of efficient planet management.

[Cedars]

Capitalism was an excellent tool as a domestic system of exchange during the era of nation building. It encouraged entrepreneurship, invention and the rapid growth of the technologies needed to develop the colonies.

 

Capitalism turned lethal when it went international, ending up in a lost generation of Cold War spending that bankrupted the two International super-powers, threatened the extinction of all life on earth, and left the next generations neck deep in debt.

 

Capitalism is an artiifcial obstruction in the new era of globalization. It is completely incapable of putting the whole world to work in the increasingly urgent business of efficient planet management.

 

There is still a lot of nation building going on. It is not capitalism that is impeading nation growth as much as it is culture and politics.

 

What two international superpowers went bankrupt because of capitolism?

 

Explain how capitalism is an obstruction.

[TheBigDog]

Capitalism was the salvation of the past and is the hope of the future. Please describe how a "New World Order" would function without capitalism. I will get into historical facts a bit later.

 

Bill

[Tarantism]

Capitalism was the salvation of the past and is the hope of the future. Please describe how a "New World Order" would function without capitalism. I will get into historical facts a bit later.

 

Bill

tell me what solutions capitolism can offer me.

corruption is the biggest problem in my eyes as far as capitolism goes,

humans tend to always have personal motives, not always for the good of others.

 

yeah and what "new world order"?

[Racoon]

Capitalism isn't perfect.

 

Adam Smith's Free Hand economy does offer several advantages...

Including the Market finding its own way to regulate the flow of goods/services needed and desired.

Along with development of new technology and Manufacturing efficiency

 

If NOT Capitalism, then WHAT???

 

Because although Socialism seems great on paper, We know it sucks! :eek_big:

[TheBigDog]

tell me what solutions capitolism can offer me.

corruption is the biggest problem in my eyes as far as capitolism goes,

humans tend to always have personal motives, not always for the good of others.

 

yeah and what "new world order"?

It offers you the opportunity to do whatever you choose, as long as you are willing to earn it. No other system offers that. If you are an American and you do not appreciae the freedoms that capitalism has offered you then I don't know what can help you. Maybe you should read some history or travel around and see what the reality of alternative systems really is.

 

Corruption is not an offshoot of capitalism. It is a flaw of human character. It exists in every society. Just with other societies you get to have oppression along with your corruption. If you want that then go fid it and enjoy.

 

Bill

[MagnetMan]

There is still a lot of nation building going on. It is not capitalism that is impeading nation growth as much as it is culture and politics.

The new nations of today do not need capital to reinvent the wheel all over again - and then go on to encourage ran-away consumerism and in the process pollute their environments. They should be allowed to share freely in the accumulated knowledge and technology that has already bought and paid for by all our ancestors. Making a profit on Ages of accumulated human ingenuity and then letting that profit gravitate into fewer and fewer hands is both inefficient in the long run and selfishly unethical.

 

What two international superpowers went bankrupt because of capitolism?[/quote'

The USA and the USSR Both wasted an entire generation of effort on a senseless arms race in a short-sighted competition to control the globe and which cost far more than either could afford.

 

Explain how capitalism is an obstruction.

There is not enough money on the planet to get the entire world fully employed and thereby enable us to meet the exponential reality of educatiing, houring, feeding and energizing massive population growth as well as engage in the large-scale engineering challenges of planet management that will define the global ideology of the 21st Century. Capitalism is based on short-term returns and endless consumerism - much of it gadgetry and most of it paper administration.. The business of planet management is based on long-term sustainability and an ethic of custodianship.

[MagnetMan]

Capitalism was the salvation of the past and is the hope of the future. Please describe how a "New World Order" would function without capitalism. I will get into historical facts a bit later.

 

Bill

This and the next few statements were posted while I was busy answering Cedar.

 

The answer you ask for is partly given to him. Will engage in further debate once you have digested that and I have listened to historical facts from you that I might not be aware of.

 

Capitalism isn't perfect.

 

 

If NOT Capitalism, then WHAT???

 

Because although Socialism seems great on paper, We know it sucks! :eek_big:

 

The short answer is that by evoking an ethic of global stewardship in the next generation of children and wean them off endless gadgetry consummerism and the vast bureaucratic waste to takes to regulate and control a monetary system based on private ownership.

 

This short answer of course raises a thousand more questions. The long answer is in my book on Psyche-Genetics, which deals with innate imprint of human ethical behavior that has resulted from over 100,000 generations of evolutionary development.

 

In brief, the theory argues that we are entering a 5th Shift of the collective consciousness. We are leaving a teenage state of pseudo-intellectual religious protestation and independent self-determination and entering a more responsible adult Nuclear Age of indeterminate possibilities in an essnetially interdependent universe. Thus a mass social and spiritual adjustment needs to be made by all of us, in order to meet these new evolutionary exigencies.

 

Though I deeply respect its colonial history, capitalism was only a transitionary contractual deology. It cannot address the exponential needs of this present New Age. The chaos in the undeveloped world and the growing resentment is clear evidence of this. Only an ethic of unversal Custodianship can move us forward. It will require all of mankind working together to steward the globe as a single family estate for us to survive in the coming century and continue on an evoltionary journey that has taken us from the infancy of our Stone Age onwards - to an eventual Age of Cosmic sagehood, when I believe our developmental cycle will end.

[Racoon]

The new nations of today do not need capital to reinvent the wheel all over again - and then go on to encourage ran-away consumerism and in the process pollute their environments.

 

Capitalism is based on short-term returns and endless consumerism - much of it gadgetry and most of it paper administration.. The business of planet management is based on long-term sustainability and an ethic of custodianship.

 

What about China? they might have the worst pollution problem of all!! :eek_big:

 

In a free market, people can make more money than they need for basic subsistence; and therefor explore the possibilities of "Fun, Travel, Art, Sport, and Leisure"

 

When people quit buying "junk", then Companies will quit making "junk"

Capitalism is Very Responsive!

How many companies are making more 8-Tracks now??

It's been awhile since my Economics class, but

Capitalism doesn't necessarily mean Consumerism. (although that is what it is becoming in America)

 

Please offer an alternate system of exchange. Its not the Capitalistic System that is flawed, but rather as THEBigDog alluded, A human flaw of Greed and Corruption.

[TheBigDog]

The USA and the USSR Both wasted an entire generation of effort on a senseless arms race in a short-sighted competition to control the globe and which cost far more than either could afford.

Reality check!

 

Fact #1 - The USA has aided in building nations around the world with varying levels of success by promoting freedom and democracy within populations, and protecting smaller nations from being victimized by the invading forces of other nations. We have lead the world in this effort. And despite the frequent talk about how we install puppet governments, it is simply not the fact.

 

Fact #2 - The USSR was bent on world communism under the control of the Kremlin. Their version of nationbuilding was to invade, oppress and kill or imprison the dissidents. In the event that a government was "independant" they were in fact a copy of the Soviet government under supervison of the Soviet government.

 

Fact #3 - The USA did not go bankrupt while winning the cold war with the USSR. Yes, we took on debt. But we are not bankrupt. That would indicate that we had stopped paying our debt, and had concluded that we could not any longer pay our debt. That is far from reality. If we are so bankrupt then why are forign countries eager to by US bonds? Because it is the safest investment in the history.

 

Now, what is the political and economic structure of this so called "New World Order"?

 

Bill

[Racoon]

In response to BigDogs response on "Waste of a Generation"

 

Most technologies result from War.

Most of our current technology came from this "War"...

 

Including the Internet, as a way of the Military being able to communicate more effectively/efficiently.

 

Thanks Al Gore! :eek_big: :evil: :evil:

[MagnetMan]

What about China? they might have the worst pollution problem of all!! :eek_big:

And the more they move into capitalism the worse it will get. The problem with their earlier version of communism was that it enforced atheism. Religion, for all its flaws of interpretation, at least encourages spiritual ethics. So China faces a double blow from the forces of mammon.

 

Please offer an alternate system of exchange. Its not the Capitalistic System that is flawed, but rather as THEBigDog alluded, A human flaw of Greed and Corruption.

 

You are posting too fast for me to keep up. See the answer to this in my previous post.

 

Reality check!

 

Fact #1 - The USA has aided in building nations around the world with varying levels of success by promoting freedom and democracy within populations, and protecting smaller nations from being victimized by the invading forces of other nations. We have lead the world in this effort. And despite the frequent talk about how we install puppet governments, it is simply not the fact.

I love America as much as you. But me-thinks our motives were something other than ultruism.

 

Fact #2 - The USSR was bent on world communism under the control of the Kremlin. Their version of nationbuilding was to invade, oppress and kill or imprison the dissidents. In the event that a government was "independant" they were in fact a copy of the Soviet government under supervison of the Soviet government.

Not true. Marxist ideology invaded other countries and each adopted their version of it. Russia phsyically invaded countries bordering the USSR that they preceived as threats to their way of life. We did same - in Panama, Cuba etc - and now in Iraq.

 

Fact #3 - The USA did not go bankrupt while winning the cold war with the USSR. Yes, we took on debt. But we are not bankrupt. That would indicate that we had stopped paying our debt, and had concluded that we could not any longer pay our debt. That is far from reality. If we are so bankrupt then why are forign countries eager to by US bonds? Because it is the safest investment in the history.

We are struggling to just pay just the interest on the national debt and getting deeper into the mire yearly. In the meantime our infrastructure is chronically under-funded. We now have so many laws trying to uphold our system and a government so huge trying to enforce and police them it boggles the mind. How do you suggest we get out of the current mess - without a massive revolution of consciousness? If we are not quite bankrupt right now, when China and india get up to full speed, were are the profits going to come from to relieve our present debts?

 

Now, what is the political and economic structure of this so called "New World Order"?

 

Bill

 

Over the past 2.5 million years we have graduated sequentially from hunter/gatherer Family Groups, to Agriculturall Clan Groups; to Industrial National Groups. To technocratic International Groups - so the logical next step in our evoltuiomn is into a Global Group of planet managers. Our occupational contract in the New Wordl Order has to be founded on the universal family value and egalitarian ethic of meticulous sharing.

[Cedars]

The new nations of today do not need capital to reinvent the wheel all over again - and then go on to encourage ran-away consumerism and in the process pollute their environments.

 

They should be allowed to share freely in the accumulated knowledge and technology that has already bought and paid for by all our ancestors. Making a profit on Ages of accumulated human ingenuity and then letting that profit gravitate into fewer and fewer hands is both inefficient in the long run and selfishly unethical.

 

Time and again loans have been granted so these individual nations can share in the accumulated knowledge and technology. Some have done well. Some have not.

 

Just how much should the richer nations give? How many times should the world bank forgive loans because some nation has erupted in civil war again and destroyed the foundations that were layed? This behavior diminshes the work and ingenuity of our ancestors and should we continue to waste time and effort on such seemingly impossible and self inflicted standard of living?

 

Sometimes nature has to take its course and we should maybe wait until the parties involved have really decided they want it better for themselves.

 

The USA and the USSR Both wasted an entire generation of effort on a senseless arms race in a short-sighted competition to control the globe and which cost far more than either could afford.

 

ok, it seems your mixing up politics with capitalism.

 

There is not enough money on the planet to get the entire world fully employed and thereby enable us to meet the exponential reality of educatiing, houring, feeding and energizing massive population growth as well as engage in the large-scale engineering challenges of planet management that will define the global ideology of the 21st Century.

 

I would argue if you do not have capitalism and the opportunity for people to profit from educating, housing, feeding populations you will see exactly the opposite of growth. You will see illiteracy, homelessness and famine on a wider scale than occurs now. While there are people willing to devote their lives to serving others, such as nuns do, this is not the reality of the majority of the population. Mandating servitute to a country (such as socialism) fails because it goes against human nature. The hunt and gathering of resources for self first.

 

Capitalism is based on short-term returns and endless consumerism - much of it gadgetry and most of it paper administration.. The business of planet management is based on long-term sustainability and an ethic of custodianship.

 

Capitalism is not based on short-term returns. That is an investment choice. And the logical choice of persons investing is the capital that will provide the most growth in the shortest time period. Millions are being invested in India by richer nations. Indias standard of living continues to improve. Millions are being invested in China. Chinas standard of living improves. So there it is, the three most populated countries in the world. Past political and economic decisions within two of those three are what slowed their advancement. The third, the USA is the one whos standard of living is the highest overall simply because of capitalism. What exactly do you predict for the future of India and China and how well its people live, now that the walls against capitalism are being torn down?

[TheBigDog]

I love America as much as you. But me-thinks our motives were something other than ultruism.

You love America enough to sacrifice her glory to those who would rape her resources for the enrichment of others. You love America enough to subject all Americans to servitude to a global communist state. You love America as much as I do? Then lets just say we love America differently. I never inferred motives. They certainly include access to resources and profit taking where possible. Noble endevours on both counts.

Not true. Marxist ideology invaded other countries and each adopted their version of it. Russia phsyically invaded countries bordering the USSR that they preceived as threats to their way of life. We did same - in Panama, Cuba etc - and now in Iraq.

You have a great hatred of freedom. I don't know how that manifests in people. I think I am glad that i don't know. Remind me again, how have we invaded Cuba? Remind me again, how have we oppressed Panama? Remind me again, how was East Germany the grateful child nation of the Soviets? And Estonia, Yugoslavia (further boken up), Poland, Bulgaria, almost Afghanistan, Hungary, and on and on and on. People who lived under the oppressive heal of world communism. You are suggesting the same for me, my family, and my fellow citizens. My answer is no.

 

Edit - I can't believe I misread that quote the first time. The Soviets invaded other countries because they felt they were a threat to the Soviet way of life? I am stunned. I hope you don't teach school.

We are struggling to just pay just the interest on the national debt and getting deeper into the mire yearly. In the meantime our infrastructure is chronically under-funded. We now have so many laws trying to uphold our system and a government so huge trying to enforce and police them it boggles the mind. How do you suggest we get out of the current mess - without a massive revolution of consciousness? If we are not quite bankrupt right now, when China and india get up to full speed, were are the profits going to come from to relieve our present debts?

It is my opinion that you grasp of economics parallels your grasp of political history.

Over the past 2.5 million years we have graduated sequentially from hunter/gatherer Family Groups, to Agriculturall Clan Groups; to Industrial National Groups. To technocratic International Groups - so the logical next step in our evoltuiomn is into a Global Group of planet managers. Our occupational contract in the New Wordl Order has to be founded on the universal family value and egalitarian ethic of meticulous sharing.

I am curious about the universal family value. I think it will read something like "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need". Although I bet you paraphrase into something less recognizable.

 

Communism lost. In some places it continues to suffer in stagnation. The Chinese have opened markets to boost their economy, but all investment in China is at risk of state takeover at any moment. There are no elections to prevent the leadership from oppressing their people. The public slaughter of students engaged in peaceful protest of government policy was only 17 years ago. The leadership has not changed - they just smile more often.

 

Bill

[MagnetMan]

You guys are jumping forward to defend the status quo, which is very laudable, but you are contributing nothing to forward the problems of the future which I have alluded to. You are just advocating more of the same. Dragging people out of their comfort zone into a new vision of reality and ask them to consider the idea of a new world order, is just as difficult today as it has always been. We had to be dragged out of Bronze Age clan vendettas by ruthless warlord’s intent on nation building. We had to fight royalists to get a democracy going. Now we have another Age change and the resistance is just the same - only this time you are it. I criticized our most sacred cow - in fact the American totem of international supremacy - the God Almighty $$$$, but I did it constructively, offering due respect before suggesting an alternative view point. Your responses are not only unoriginal, they verge on the crude. How about something that I have not heard before ad infinitum? Gimme some credit. I was brought up in the same system and know it as well as you, despite what you think.

[TheBigDog]

You guys are jumping forward to defend the status quo, which is very laudable, but you are contributing nothing to forward the problems of the future which I have alluded to. You are just advocating more of the same. Dragging people out of their comfort zone into a new vision of reality and ask them to consider the idea of a new world order, is just as difficult today as it has always been. We had to be dragged out of Bronze Age clan vendettas by ruthless warlord’s intent on nation building. We had to fight royalists to get a democracy going. Now we have another Age change and the resistance is just the same - only this time you are it. I criticized our most sacred cow - in fact the American totem of international supremacy - the God Almighty $$$$, but I did it constructively, offering due respect before suggesting an alternative view point. Your responses are not only unoriginal, they verge on the crude. How about something that I have not heard before ad infinitum? Gimme some credit. I was brought up in the same system and know it as well as you, despite what you think.

Since my answers are correct I see no reason to change them to please you.

 

I am promoting my status-quo, which is considerably more pleasant and free and full of hope and self determination than most others in the world share. And I am promoting the ideal of allowing all people to enjoy those same freedoms of self determination and freedom. I am promoting the method that has irrefutably proven to allows such freedoms - capitalism under a constitutional repulic.

 

Societal evolution has time over time promoted the general condition of the people. Societies of oppression have been short lived (thank God!). What you are proposing is giving up freedoms and choosing oppression for some twisted idealistic vision of a future world government. You are asking for change, not for the better, but for the worse. I am offering change for the better for those who have not yet been lucky enough to enjoy my circumstances. Or they can choose to reject it. It is up to them. You are not offering a choice. You are preaching communism.

 

If you are disappointed with my analysis of your positions, well, I am working with what you are giving me. I took the time to read through your website, and the site for the society that you run. I think you are holding back here at Hypography. You have much more to offer than you are typing on this thread. But it is up to you to bring it.

 

Bill

[MagnetMan]

Societal evolution has time over time promoted the general condition of the people. Societies of oppression have been short lived (thank God!). What you are proposing is giving up freedoms and choosing oppression for some twisted idealistic vision of a future world government. You are asking for change, not for the better, but for the worse.

 

I hardly think this is a fair analysis of what I have said so far. Why would I ask for change for the worse? How worse? How can an ethic of global stewardship and responsible custodianship be construed as oppressive? You are simply twisting this thread to serve your own purpose.

 

I am offering change for the better for those who have not yet been lucky enough to enjoy my circumstances. Or they can choose to reject it. It is up to them. You are not offering a choice.

 

If everybody on the planet chose to be a millionaire, how is that going to happen? America by itself consumes over 25% of global resources and we have less than 6% in the top income bracket despite that. Where then is the choice? A middle class life yes. - with most at the bottom and a few elite at the top. I dont like bowing to anybody. Nor do I sleep easy when I see or hear of children going hungry to bed each night. Thus I prefer and pray for an egalitarian society. That is what my forefathers fought and died for. They never wanted me to live and die on the production line just so that another borgoise royalty can rise and lord it on the top of a monopolized pile. In the long term capitalism is every much in line with that Monopoly board game. Eventually only one person wins and owns everything - via a combination of luck and shrewd investements. Our laws are supposed to keep monopolies in check - but in the end, special interests win. Money buys and corrupts everything - just as all our wise old sages stated. As I said, Capitalism had its rightful place in human evolution, but like all things, it is time for change. Trying to make me sound unpatriotic because I seek a better system of human management does you little credit.

 

You are preaching communism.

 

If you mean Marxist communism, I am not. All forms of human government are communist/socialist. Capitalism is no exception. Every capitalist enjoying his newly earned billions, rests on the accumulated effort of past generations of sweat, blood and tears. He pays ten cents for a phone call that cost trillions to install. He rides on a highway system that he never built with his money and hawks his wares in an educated market place that took centuries to evolve.. On top of all this, he empolys clever tax lawyers to find every loop-hole. The commie bogeyman label never scared me. I am a humanist. I grow rich in the giving, not in the taking.

 

If you are disappointed with my analysis of your positions, well, I am working with what you are giving me. I took the time to read through your website, and the site for the society that you run. I think you are holding back here at Hypography. You have much more to offer than you are typing on this thread. But it is up to you to bring it.

 

Bill

 

I am busy doing that, as considerately as I can. I have no ulterior objective, other than general enlightement in my heart. The happiness of others is my ultimate selfishness - for then I can play golf in peace and improve my stroke with an easier swing.