Camp of the Saints

[questor]

Tormod...

my quote: ''you are correct, most of these articles are negative. does this surprise you? we are dealing with a negative situation. why not produce some positive articles if you can find them?''

your response: ''Sure. Content about the positive sides of immigration can be easily found online.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148380,00.html

http://themetropolistimes.blogspirit.com/immigration/

Give it a try yourself. ''

your second response: ''

''Can I find positive articles about *illegal* immigration? No. By definition that would be quite difficult.''

this is because there are none.

 

you are correct, this is a waste of time. if you don't believe the facts that i state and the newspaper articles published, we have no basis for communication.

[Tormod]

Questor, I still want you to qualify this comment:

 

your constant predilection to accuse someone of racism when a problem is described also is puzzling.

 

Which other cases are you thinking of?

[questor]

Tormod, i cannot remember the thread. it was several weeks ago, and i was

discussing an issue. you took offense at my statements and said they were racist comments. i replied to you that it is not racist to point out a truth about a given group, no matter what their color. truth is truth regardless of color. in fact, the racial problem in the US is perpetuated in large part by the fact that no white is allowed to criticise any failings of our black citizens, in fact, our liberal establishment acts as enablers to perpetuate the problems in the black communities. i'm sure this comment will probably infuriate you, but it is the truth. are we not looking for ways to better our society? you and i obviously have different definitions of racism.

[pgrmdave]

the racial problem in the US is perpetuated in large part by the fact that no white is allowed to criticise any failings of our black citizens, in fact, our liberal establishment acts as enablers to perpetuate the problems in the black communities.

 

Questor, while you may have a valid point in this idea, I think that it is too generalized, and that is what is offending some people. I do know some people who are black/hispanic who assume that any critisism of them by a white person is automatically a racist statement. I also know people who assume that if you make any statement about their community you are being racist. However, in my experiance, the vast majority of people are reasonable, and understand that different people are different and different cultures are different, and critisism of one culture by another is not necessarily racism if it is constructive and respectful. Critisisms which are not constructive or are disrespectful are racist(if you are speaking in terms of race), and do not help solve any problems.

 

As for illegal immigration - Would be less of a burden if they were legal? If it is simply their illegality which causes the problems, then why not make it easier to be legal? Then they would have to pay taxes, be paid the minimum wage, and help contribute to the system just like everybody else. We can't stop people from wanting to come here as long as there is the opportunity for people to better their lot in life, so to solve the problem of their illegality, why not just make it more legal?

[Tormod]

truth is truth regardless of color

 

This is at heart of the issue. You should understand by now that there is no truths in science - least of all social science. What you call truths are assumptions and biased opinion.

 

When biased opinion is used to say that members of ethnic group X is in general having a negative effect on society, it is for all practical purposes racism.

[questor]

Dave, have you read and thought much about this problem? are you aware that all our country is wide open to anyone from anywhere who wants to come in. this includes terrorists, drug runners and criminals of all sorts along with peaceful people looking for a better life. the trickle of people across our southern border has now become a deluge. here are some racist quotes from Time Magazine.

 

 

''Time Magazine broke through the media silence about illegal aliens with a cover story on September 20 called "America's Border: Who Left the Door Open?" The well-documented article is a sensational expose about the big issue of the 2004 political campaign which the media and the presidential candidates gave the silent treatment. Time describes how the illegals invade our country:

"In a single day, more than 4,000 illegal aliens will walk across the busiest unlawful gateway into the U.S., the 375-mile border between Arizona and Mexico. No searches for weapons. No shoe removal. No photo-ID checks. . . . At night as many as 100 will take over a vacant house. Some crowd into motel rooms, even storage-compartment rental units. During the day, they congregate on school playgrounds, roam through backyards and pass in and out of apartment buildings. Some assemble at the Burger King, waiting for their assigned drivers to appear. Sometimes stolen cars are waiting for them, keys on the floor. . . . They will ride in thousands of stolen vehicles, often with the seats ripped out to accommodate more human cargo, on the next leg of their journey to big cities and small towns from California to North Carolina''

now that the world has seen how easy it is to invade the US, with no penalty, what is your prediction over the next 10 years? it is difficult to discuss this problem with some one who does not consider facts or understand cause and effect.

[questor]

by the way, no matter which ethnic group was engaged in this the problem would be the same. cries of racism usually mean '' i don't want to argue the merits, i'll just call you a racist and that will end the conversation.''

[Racoon]

I agree with Questor on that it is Waaaaaaay to easy for Mexicans, Guatamalans, and others to get in here.

 

It means that the terrorists are laughing their asses off. They can smuggle all the Anthrax and Suicide bombers across all they want. :) :lol:

 

It will take another huge Terror Act to finally Pull some heads out of Asses!

[C1ay]

I agree with Questor on that it is Waaaaaaay to easy for Mexicans, Guatamalans, and others to get in here.

I do agree that border security is a problem because of terrorists.

[Tormod]

To put an angle on this discussion - not every threat to the US is coming from outside the border.

 

Brothers nabbed after 15 years on run

 

ALBUQUERQUE, New Mexico (AP) -- Two brothers who had eluded a string of felony drug and weapons charges for 15 years have been captured and were found with stockpiles of drugs, weapons and gunpowder, a U.S. marshal said Saturday.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/19/brothers.nabbed.ap/index.html

[questor]

Tormod, yes, we already have plenty of criminals in the US. what does this have to do with illegal aliens? is the logic here that we should let more potential criminals in because we already have some? or is it that if we let illegal aliens in, it may solve our existing crime problem? the reasoning here totally escapes me.

[InfiniteNow]

People are people, and they are going to do what it takes to survive. If they have a family and are trying to feed/clothe/assure a roof over their head... they will seek out the best opportunity to do so. I fail to see why it's so hard to understand someone seeking a better life... Economics and politics aside, I commend their desire to do better and be more, even if they must cross a border to accomplish it.

[questor]

Then why bother with having immigration laws? why bother with quotas?

aren't all immigrants coming here to improve their lives? why not let all people who want to come here, come with no restrictions?

[TheBigDog]

Then why bother with having immigration laws? why bother with quotas?

aren't all immigrants coming here to improve their lives? why not let all people who want to come here, come with no restrictions?

For that matter, why should the USA be the only country to have immigration laws? Because we oppress people? Because capitalism is a failure? Because there is no opportunity for the poor and under educated here? Let the so-called free nations of the world hold their borders as open as they would have us hold ours. Is that going to happen any time soon?

 

Bill

[InfiniteNow]

Then why bother with having immigration laws? why bother with quotas?

aren't all immigrants coming here to improve their lives? why not let all people who want to come here, come with no restrictions?

Yeah... why not?

 

 

For that matter, why should the USA be the only country to have immigration laws? Because we oppress people? Because capitalism is a failure? Because there is no opportunity for the poor and under educated here? Let the so-called free nations of the world hold their borders as open as they would have us hold ours. Is that going to happen any time soon?

We're not the only nation with immigration laws. Any time soon? Well, if we're lucky.

 

 

One planet without borders. Break it down to the most basic elements. All nations, all folks, all life...

 

 

 

Sorry to bring up this Sagan quote again, but it crystallizes the issue for me:

Is Dubya a moron thread:

When the Voyager mission reached to the distance of Pluto, Carl Sagan and others rallied to have the Voyager cameras turned back on Earth to snap a shot before exiting our solar system. After much resistance and various reluctance, it happened. The quote is what Carl Sagan had to say after seeing the photo.

 

Here's a link containing the full quote:

http://obs.nineplanets.org/psc/pbd.html

[questor]

Infinite, it's obvious you have given this a lot of thought, so let me broach a few questions:

1. how many people do you think our country can sustain with it's finite amount of natural resources?

2. what effect does doubling our population have on our current infrastructure; health care system, fuel consumption, waste disposal, prison system, educational system and social security system?

3. as the global economy moves away from the agrarian toward the technological, why do we need more and more laborers?

i would have to assume that you have not considered these possibilities, or else you think they have no consequence.

[InfiniteNow]

Infinite, it's obvious you have given this a lot of thought, so let me broach a few questions:

1. how many people do you think our country can sustain with it's finite amount of natural resources?

2. what effect does doubling our population have on our current infrastructure; health care system, fuel consumption, waste disposal, prison system, educational system and social security system?

3. as the global economy moves away from the agrarian toward the technological, why do we need more and more laborers?

i would have to assume that you have not considered these possibilities, or else you think they have no consequence.

1. The point I am making is more on order of eliminating country boundaries entirely. This would make the question moot. We share limited resources as a planet anyway. That seems, to me anyway, the ideal route if one were to be taken.

 

2. Depends on how we do it. If we do it properly, the effect could be positive. Agreed?

 

3. Still need food and personal items. Until those have been mechanized ala automobile manufacturing, laborers are necessary. More and more laborers are needed primarily b/c more and more people are born each and every day, and this growth is logarithmic. We are a community, and must help support each other to survive.

 

Consequences are relative. While I admit to not knowing the proper course of action and how to fully implement it as I type this, I do very strongly believe that a good setup could overcome any current problems as well as those you proposed.

 

 

Cheers questor. :)