Camp of the Saints

[Tormod]

I am curious why some are so quick to call others racist when they are not informed on a particular issue?

 

What makes you say that they are not informed? Are you claiming to be an authority on the issue? What is the basis for this claim?

 

this is the second time i have been called a racist for making truthful comments.

 

Truthful...or highly biased?

[Tormod]

Do you realize that very few of the Hispanics in the US favor increasing the flow of the legal immigration from Latin America?

 

This is classic. Don't forget that every single citizen (apart from native Indians) are immigrants or descendants of immigrants. It is normal that after a while, they want to stop immigration to "safeguard their culture". They tend to forget what that culture is built upon.

 

What a Disgrace? Thats pretty harsh. This comment is derogatory, offensive and flaming to say the least Tormod.

 

No, I stand by my comment. You have a one-sided and black/white view on the issue. That's not only a disgrace, it is pathetic.

 

Again, Were talking about those that are blatently breaking the laws. I see nothing disgraceful in being law abiding and wanting to preserve and speak the English language.

 

This is not about the language - that's a cheap strawman argument. It's about illegal aliens. Or are you telling me that if everyone went out and learned English you'd welcome them into the US?

 

The last refuge of those unable to make reasoned arguments based on facts and logic is to resort to slander and name-calling.

In general, the critical responses demonstrate how difficult it is to have a serious, informed, and reasoned exchange on what is, "the most fundamental question about the United States future as a nation and a culture.”

 

Yeah. And according to statistics one should start thinking about who the future US citizens will be, and how to best protect and serve their needs.

[ughaibu]

Celeste: Your original statement read, "my cousin couldn't get a job in Japan until he learned their language". As you are raising a fuss about sub-standard english spoken by illegal immigrants, I think it's fair of me to assume that you are fluent in english, as such you will realise that "a job" in your sentence would normally be understood, in the context of immigrant linguistic requirements, to mean 'any job', not to mean 'a particular job' or 'a job in a specialised field'. The statement 'my cousin couldn't get any job in Japan until he learned their language' has been proven false by the experience of countless gaijin, including me.

Your response struck me as irrelevant, are you suggesting that there is an excess of illegal immigrants with insufficient english seeking positions as account operations managers and the like?

[questor]

Tormod, you yourself are the one who has called me a racist. you now are not allowing published articles to be posted because you consider them racist.

 

'' The links you keep posting lead to articles and sites fueled by racist propaganda. The American Resistance is a supremacist site. I am not going to allow this here at Hypography. Like it or not, it is against our rules.''

 

did you read the 4 links i posted in addition to the latest two?

are you in a position to determine what is true and what is not?

why do you keep saying this is racist? we have a problem here in the US and we need to solve it. no one is advocating murder and mayhem, but this problem will become worse if we ignore it. shall we have all posts vetted by you? it seems the idea of free speech here depends on who's in charge.

[sanctus]

the reason this has relevance is our own immigration problem. we are surely being invaded by illegal aliens who, if they were armed could almost take over the southern part of our country. they have become part of our government, use our schools, hospitals, tax revenues and are transforming our language.

Sounds like the Nazi-propaganda used to make people believe that there are jewish complots and conspirations everywhere....to be complete you should have added that they stole "our" women:evil:

And you ask yourself why you are called a racist????

 

this invasion so far has been relatively peaceful, but as more criminals understand ways to subvert our laws, more gangs come in,and the warfare over the drug trade becomes more widespread, we are going to be in a Hell of a situation.

 

 

Yes usual things because the statics say that many immigrants are criminal then all immigrants are. Have you already thought about the fact of why they become criminals? Isn't it maybe because the law doesn't make it easy (or as hard as for any other person) to find a legal job? Ask yourself how many of those criminal immigrants would still be criminal if they were naturalized right away?

 

how do you stop people who will not stop coming, or do you not see it as a problem?

I see it s well as a problem, we've got the same over here in Europe, but the solution is not to close the borders saying that anyway most of them are bad. It would be to integrate them and in a better way than how it's done in Switzerland, the illegal immigrants are allowed to send their children to school (the compulsory 9 years), but then those children aren't allowed to work or to go further with studies....

[sanctus]

Here in Utah, the Hispanic population has more then doubled in the last 4 years,(estimated around 450,00 in 2005) a large number of them are illegals.

Officials estimate about 85,000 residents of Utah are in this country illegally.

Our hispanic prison population has increased by 50% in the last few years. Drugs, violence and gangs are becoming daily news.

 

See above

 

 

Looking at the government and state reports privy in epidemiology, the drug, gang, and disease problems with immigrates, legal and illegal, are astounding.

Need we mention that 90% of the terrorists have been immigrates?

 

Which terrorists? The ones who invaded Irak? Well yes as there aren't many native americans yes they were immigrants. Or the ones who give death penalties? The ones who revenged 9/11 in Afganistan (don't say it was against the taliban regime, because it existed since the eighties....)?

 

What is also very upsetting to me is that many US citizens are commiting a felony themselves because they don't know the laws or they turn the other cheek because they feel sorry for the hard working, law abiding illegal immigrants. Illegal means illegal no matter how you define it.

 

Do the illegal people like being illegal? Do they do it for fun? Or maybe because they don't have any other choice? If them being illegal disturbs you why don't you try to change the laws? And yes I do feel sorry for them I've got even a friend in that situation, but I still can judge and say that's not right to say they are illegal and therefore have to be thrown out.

By the way if there were this civil war in the US that you and Questor seem to be expecting (I exagerate on purpose) and you wouldn't have nothing left to eat and so you can't even feed your children wouldn't you maybe emigrate to anywhere possible even if illegally? You said your parents immigrated legally, lucky them but what if you havn't got that luck?

 

 

My biggest problem lies in immigrants sneaking in illegally. I say sneaking in because it reminds me of cockroaches.

Yes, it might be the minority of the immigrates bringing the problem, but the minority infects the whole like a parasite.

 

Isn't it you who decides that the minority infects all? Isn't it you who are generalizing?

 

Personally, I'm tired of having to repeat my order at Mcdonalds and every other fast food chain 6 times because they refuse to learn OUR language.

I'm tired of calling my bank, my mortgage company, my phone company etc. over and over until I get an English speaking representative because if I ask someone Hispanic for one, some get offended and act like I'm supposed to know their language. Excuse me! your in the US now.

That's really pathetic, hope you never travel to a country where thy don't know any language you know. Is it that far that your respect for other culture goes? Give them a chance to learn english!!! Do you really think they refuse to learn "YOUR" language or maybe isn't it that they aren't integrated and never get a real chance to learn the language.

 

On a final note, I want to clearify that I have NO problem with any race living, prospering, and enjoying the benefits of US soil.

By all means come on over....but don't expect me to respect or accept you if you do so illegally or refuse to learn the English language or live by the very laws I have to. And if your bringing your drug and gang/terrorist b.s., don't expect me to sit back and allow you parasites to have a free lunch.

 

Yes you have no problem as long as they behave exactly as you expect it, hopefuly so that you think they aren't even there. By the way since when human races exist?

[TheBigDog]

Sounds like the Nazi-propaganda used to make people believe that there are jewish complots and conspirations everywhere....to be complete you should have added that they stole "our" women

And you ask yourself why you are called a racist????

Sanctus, it is possible to take any critisism leveled by anyone at a group of people and compare it to the propaganda of the Nazi's. It is both reckless and insulting to do so in this case. Questor is talking about enforcement of laws that are not being enforced, and dealing with the real problems that come as a result of rampant illegal immigration into the US. He is not suggesting or advocating treating these people as second class citizens - they are not citizens or legal aliens, and that is the point. He is not pointing this just at Mexicans. He is not calling for their extermination. And he has not written a single unkind word for anyone who is in the US legally. To reduce the conversation to calling him a racist and worse a Nazi is way out of line. It doesn't help in having a productive debate on this serious issue. ;)

 

Bill

 

ps. The only thing that stopped the REAL Nazi's was planty of fish on bicycles - but we can talk about that in another thread someday...;)

[sanctus]

I like your PS and I would have an answer so when you start a thread about that send me a pm.

 

I don't agree with you, the propaganda to extermination came afterwards. You know it's the choice of the words he used that made me think it sounds like nazi-propaganda. "They are everywhere schools government and so on" and he says he is scared that they might overtake the US.

My interpretation of what he said is that they are deteriorating the US-society, just as the nazi said about jews and arians. See why I compare them even if it is not so extreme?

[TheBigDog]

You can make the connection, but you can only do so by ignoring some of the facts. The Jews were long term members of the German society. Their homes and businesses had been their for generations. This thread is not about pointing to any group in that situation. It is about pointing to a group of people who are coming here in violation of our laws. 100% (except children brought by parents) of them are in violation of immigration laws that they knowingly broke, regardless of their motivation. Once here they become a burden on the economy and the society in many fashions. We have our immigration laws so we can control how that burden is placed upon our society - and we already accept legally the highest immigration rate of any country in the world. When a person speaks about illegal immigration they are speaking about the factual events happening in the US and the real affects on our society and our economy. They are not spreading lies about race or religion in an attempt to create hatered (as in Nazi propaganda).

 

We are asking: What do our laws mean? Why are they not being enforced? How do we take control of an out-of-control situation? How much drain do we allow on our economy? How much do we spend on conversion to a multiligual society at the bequist of uninvited guests?

 

Those questions are not racist and they are certainly not Nazi. They are basic questions required to maintain civil society, and find a resolution within the law and not by state endorced mob violence (Nazi).

 

I am asking nicely... please... be careful when comparing people to a Nazi.

 

Bill

[C1ay]

We are asking: What do our laws mean? Why are they not being enforced? How do we take control of an out-of-control situation? How much drain do we allow on our economy? How much do we spend on conversion to a multiligual society at the bequist of uninvited guests?

Think about the cost and consider what priority is appropriate for this from a law enforcement point of view.

 

Right now we are spending approximately $3 billion a year to fight a drug war that results in a prison population of around 350,000 in federal and state prison systems combined. Think of the manpower invested in this problem.

 

Now consider the size of the alien problem. I've seen estimates from 7 - 20 million illegals. Even at the 7 million level of estimate you're talking about a population 20 fold that of the drug war population in prisons. Just how much manpower should we spend money on to tame this problem when people here are trying to argue that every single one of them should be dealt with because they are technically breaking the law?

 

The way I see it, law enforcement is already spending $3 billion year on a smaller war it can't win and you all would like law enforcement to take on an even larger war than the one it is losing now. Is the small minority of this crowd that causes real problems worth the cost it will take to go after the whole lot of them? Is this the best use of the money it would take compared to other priorities?

[pgrmdave]

If you want to stop any crime, you have to find out the reason why people commit the crime, and eliminate the cause, not the symptom. If we want to cut down on illegal immigration, we have a few choices.

 

1 - Make it easier to be a legal citizen. I believe that if it was easier for people to legally come into the country, then more people would choose the legal route. Having them be legal citizens helps in many ways, including protecting their wages (and thus our wages) from being below minimum wage, increasing the rate of reported crimes, because many illegal immigrants fear deportation if they report a crime, and helping keep immigrants safer under our laws.

 

2 - Make other countries' economies more successful and/or the governments/ruling powers less oppressive. If the conditions in their home country are good, then there is no reason for them to come here.

 

3 - Make conditions here worse. If the conditions here aren't better, they won't want to come. This entails either worsening our economy (already in the process!!!) or strengthening the laws against illegal immigrants to long jail time and deportation along with a large force actively seeking illegals (do you really want your taxes to become that much higher to pay for this force and the additional cost of more prisons/deportations?)

 

4 - Make the immigration so dangerous that people aren't willing to risk the journey for the benefits of living in the US. This can mean stronger laws leading to imprisonment (putting additional strain on already overcrowded prisons), a much larger force on the border (putting additional strain on the national budget), or making the journey physically dangerous (throwing human rights to the wind...).

 

These are the only options that will really stop illegal immigration. I think that the first option is the best, with the other options in descending order.

 

I have a lot of pride in the United States. I truly believe that it is the greatest country in the world. Because I believe this, I have no problem with people wanting to live here, it just makes sense. Since I think people should want to be here, it only makes sense that I should want to make it easy for them to come here, hence the first option.

 

The second and third options really strike at the reason for immigration itself. People come here because it is better. If we want them to not want to be here, either we need to make other places better, or ourselves worse.

 

The fourth option, while effective, would turn the United States into a place I wouldn't want to live...

Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...

[TheBigDog]

Think about the cost and consider what priority is appropriate for this from a law enforcement point of view.

No doubt about it, this is not an easy nut to crack.

 

I would start by eliminating any federal laws about drug consumption. I would keep on the books some laws regarding the interstate transport of controlled or banned substances. As far as distribution and consumption, let that fall back to the state and local level. Some states will have hefty penalties, others a slap on the wrist. We would empty the federal prison's of people in strictly for consumption and mandate rehab and testing. In most cases a fine would be sufficient for possession or consumption.

 

With all those federal resources freed up I would have them focus on border enforcement issues including anti-terrorism, smuggling, drug trafficking and border jumping.

 

As much as I am a proponent of civil liberties, I would create a national ID card that identified you as a citizen or legal alien. Any dollars handed out by the government would require this ID, as would participation in federal elections and primaries. Anyone who appears before a US court as either a defendant or a plaintiff must provide proof of citizenship or face deportation. And like a rogue bear that wanders into a city too many times, you only get a chance or two before you are banned from the US for life. Banned people would be turned over to their government, and by treaty that government would provide insurance that the individual would not cross the border again.

 

For those already in the US I would not offer amnesty, but I would provide an eased requirement for legal status good for a period of time, say 2 years. During that time they would have to register for legal alien status, prove that they are free of criminal activity, were actively trying to assimilate into the culture, and not living off of social programs designed for those with legal status. This would be a program for honest people of good social standing who had already established themselves in the US. Once the grace period ends, anyone who had not registered, or had failed to live up to the standards required would have their legal status expire and be required to leave the country.

 

I would build a prison just for housing illegal aliens convicted of crimes. People put into this system would be deported for imprisonment in their own country, with funding to cover the cost of their incarceration funded by the US (cheaper than keeping them here).

 

In countries with populations eager to come to the US I would fund classes on how to become a US citizen. And provide tutoring in English, US history and laws. People coming through these classes would be fast-tracked for legal alien status.

 

Those are some of the things that may help the situation. What we are doing now is failing in too many ways to leave it alone. We need to look closely at the whole situation, and take measured steps to improve the situation for everyone.

 

Bill

[C1ay]

I would start by eliminating any federal laws about drug consumption. I would keep on the books some laws regarding the interstate transport of controlled or banned substances. As far as distribution and consumption, let that fall back to the state and local level. Some states will have hefty penalties, others a slap on the wrist. We would empty the federal prison's of people in strictly for consumption and mandate rehab and testing. In most cases a fine would be sufficient for possession or consumption.

This is probably a good topic for another thread. I wouldn't just strike drug abuse laws, I would eliminate the DEA completely.

[Celeste]

I'm not even going to respond to the remarks implying that I'm racist, spreading Nazi propagada or pathetic. I will say that seeing it here on a public forum to which I believed was a grade above the rest, and seeing that my words were twisted to suit others own agenda's has been hurtful to say the least. This has been far from a decent debate.

To make a few things clear, I never said that the immigration problems are black and white.

What I clearly stated is that breaking the laws is. People who come here in violation of our nation's laws are criminals. The very act of coming here illegally is a federal crime. I won't condone it anymore then I condone racketeering, drug trafficking or kidnapping. Federal laws are black and white.

As far as language barriers goes, I stated that I am "UPSET" with it. Millions of Americans are upset. Language barriers cause confusion...amongst other problems.

I never suggested or implied that I thought a civil war was going to break out. I never threatened anyone's well being or spread propaganda.

Nor have I called people names or labeled them as some here have. ( see Forum rules)

 

Contrary to what some of you have labeled and implied here, I do have sympathy towards the immigrants plight. However, I don't think it's illogic to want immigrants to obtain legality first and as I said, I will not condone breaking the laws.

 

Tormod, you stated:

I would like to see a correlation between the social costs of illegal immigrants vs average American poor people, and the amount of violent acts performed by illegal immigrants vs "legal" Americans.

 

And the sources need to be credible.

 

I thought we were discussing illegal immigrants? "Legal Americans" poor or otherwise have absolutely nothing to do with the extra burden that illegals have imposed on the United States.

I ask that you and the others that condone illegal immigrants actually read the following in order to fully appreciate why it is that millions of people just like me are worried and have spoke out.

 

From the Center for Immigration Studies, Washington DC: Public domain, easily verified.

 

Medicaid paid to illegal immigrants: $2.5 billion

Medical care to uninsured illegal immigrants: $2.2 billion

Food assistance programs for illegal aliens: $1.9 billion

Federal Prison and Court Costs for illegal aliens: $1.6 billion

Federal aid to local schools for illegal immigrants: $1.4 billion

Taxpayers: Additional $10.4 billion a year to educate illegal alien children

 

Grand Total: $20.8 billion every year and growing

 

To put it in perspective, what it costs annually to support the illegal immigrants would be enough to properly feed ( US guidelines at 160.00 per month ), every US Citizen in the entire states of Utah, Nevada, Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, South Dakota, North Dakota and Nebraska or 10,721,649American citizens could be fed properly every day for a year. ***Projection charts show that by the year 2010, with the rate of illegals entering X government cost, that the entire state of Denver and Arizona could be fed also.****

 

 

1. California's nearly 3 million illegal immigrants cost taxpayers nearly $9 billion each year, according to a new report released last week by the Federation for American Immigration Reform

 

2. Texas' illegal immigrant population is costing the state's taxpayers more than $4.7 billion per year for education, medical care and incarceration, according to an analysis of the latest Census data by the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

According to the group, even if the estimated tax contributions of illegal immigrant workers are subtracted, net outlays still amount to more than $3.7 billion per year, costing the average, native-born Texas household about $725 annually.

 

3. In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide, which total 1,200 to 1,500 are attributed to illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens, or 11,000 of the outstanding 17,000 warrants.

 

4. U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics: Data from San Diego, California, and El Paso, Texas indicate that 12- 15 percent of felony arrestees were illegal aliens. Only 2 percent of arrestees in San Diego -- 7 percent in El Paso -- were legal immigrants. Foreign-born inmates comprised twelve (12%) of the state prison population in New York. Most of their commitments are for either a violent or drug offense. Among federal prisoners, the number of non-citizens sentenced to federal custody increased by 600 percent (600%) compared to an overall increase of 83 percent (83%) for all sentenced prisoners. Cost of housing 1 prisoner; $60 to $80 everyday. Who pays for it? Taxpayers. The US Citizens.

 

5. California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County.

 

6. The CIS data showed that 41.5 percent of Mexican immigrants used "major welfare programs" like Medicaid and food stamps, while those same welfare programs were used by only 14.2 percent of native Californians.

 

7. The average taxes paid by Mexican immigrants in California amount to about $1,535 per year, while native-born Californians pay $5,600 in taxes. While Mexican immigrants pay one-third the taxes of native Californians on average, they also consume roughly three times more welfare.

 

8. Center for Immigration Studies: Some 65 percent of Mexican immigrants in California are high school dropouts, compared to only 7 percent of the native-born population.

Side Note: (In 1982, federal legislation was enacted entitling all students to a free public education from kindergarten through 12th grade. That same year, the Supreme Court upheld this legislation in the case Plyler v. Doe, stating that this policy further guarantees all access to K-12, regardless of immigration or legal status.)

 

9. New Jersey Hospital Association (NJHA) in West Windsor: New Jersey's escalating population of illegal immigrants is placing an ever-growing burden on the state's hospitals, which expect to lose $200 million this year on care to the underground community. :the many millions of illegal aliens across the nation cost several billion dollars per year.:

 

10. At Senator Jon Kyle's request, his organization calculated the cost to Arizona hospitals for treating illegal immigrants at $31 million dollars in just one year.

That $31 million would pay for more than the cost of a new trauma center in the valley.

 

11. There are 43 million without health insurance in this country, the report estimates that at least 25 percent of those are illegal immigrants

 

12. The Center for Disease Control and Prevention: Immigrants brought over 16,000 cases of tuberculosis in the past five years. TB’s swift, deadly return now is lethal for about 60% of those infected. New York health department attributed 81 percent of its new TB cases to immigrants. 66 percent of all TB cases coming to America originate in Mexico, the Philippines, and Vietnam.

 

13. Journal of American Physicians: Trypanosoma cruzi, the protozoan parasite that infects 18 million people annually in Latin America and causes 50,000 deaths has arrived thru illegal immigration. This disease also has infiltrated America's blood supply. There is no cure. To date, 2 have died from the infected blood.

 

14. CDC & JoAP: Leprosy, Hansen,s disease, was so rare in America that in 40 years only 900 people were afflicted. Leprosy now is endemic with over 7000 documented cases in northeastern states. Illegal aliens and other immigrants brought leprosy from India, Brazil, the Caribbean, and Mexico.

 

15. CDC: Polio was eradicated from America, but now reappears in illegal immigrants, as do intestinal parasites.

 

16. CDC: Hepatitis A, B, and C, are resurging. Asians number 4 percent of Americans, but account for more than half of Hepatitis B cases.

 

**** From a Medical Conference Update: Deadly Marburg disease, like the fierce hemorrhagic Ebola, in April, 2005, was devastating Angola. Physicians in that African country are despairing as hundreds of infected people bleed to death. Just one infected person who could walk through the Golden Door of our Hospital to the World could be a suicide bomber with incendiaries in his arteries, veins, or capillaries.****

 

I have dozens if not hundreds more, but I fear it only falls on death ears.

questor, TheBigDog, hang in there.....

 

The next time you pass through an airport and have to produce a photo ID to establish who you are and then must remove your shoes, take off your belt, empty your pockets, prove your laptop is not an explosive device and send your briefcase or purse through a machine to determine whether it holds weapons, think about this: In a single day, more than 4,000 illegal aliens will walk across the busiest unlawful gateway into the U.S., the 375-mile border between Arizona and Mexico. No searches for weapons. No shoe removal. No photo-ID checks.

 

On a final note before resigning I want to thank Infamous for being so kind during the short time I was here.

You truly exemplify what it means to be a honorable, decent, and caring human being.

[CraigD]

There appears to be near Hypography-wide consensus that the illegality of sneaking into the US, and of employing or sheltering people who sneak into it, is a Bad Thing, and a lot of agreement about possible solutions.

 

With so many social and political problems being frustratingly intractable, it’s easy to slip into the mindset of assuming they all are. The illegal alien problem, however, appears not to be one of these, so in that spirit, here’s my solution:

• Legal immigration available, with no numeric quota restrictions
  
• Every biometrically adult US resident, native or immigrant to have a sophisticated identification device like the proposed UK national identity card, with biometric data and anti-forgery cryptographic features
  
• Allow the ID to be as expensive as necessary
  
• Natives and immigrants to bear the 1-time cost of obtaining the ID
  
• The US federal government to bear the cost of the ongoing administration of the ID
  
• Ubiquitous use of the ID, by law enforcement, employers, and individuals.
  
• Lack of ID an immediately actionable offense
  
• Automatic naturalization of immigrants who reside in the US at least 350 days/year for 10 years
  
• The usual fines and incarceration sanctions for native or naturalized citizens convicted (after all due process) of crimes of all sorts
  
• Fines, incarceration and/or deportation for immigrants convicted (after same due process afforded citizens) of crimes of all sorts
  
• State and local government may legislate voting rights (including federal ellection) to immigrants, or not
  
• State and federal minimum wage laws may distinguish between citizens and immigrants
  
• Citizens may elect to work for less than the citizen minimum wage, but no employer may pay any person less than the immigrant minimum wage (except volunteer organizations paying a zero wage)
  

Note that this plan altogether embraces the idea of openness, and rejects that of privacy, a radical departure from US legal precedent. The assumption in making such a proposal is that privacy is a legal kludge required to compensate for invalid laws, and that the elimination of privacy would mandate legislative, law enforcement, and judicial reform.

[sanctus]

You can make the connection, but you can only do so by ignoring some of the facts.

 

(...)

 

I am asking nicely... please... be careful when comparing people to a Nazi.

 

Bill

 

Yes, I agree I ignored heaps of facts, but I had many discussions about politics with extreme right people and neo-nazis and they used the same choice of words speaking about the immigrants here.

But I'm sorry if you took it as an offense or a too big exageration/ignorance of facts.

But one last thing there illegal immigrants in Switzerland who live here since more than 15 years...so they are part of the society.

[sanctus]

I'm not even going to respond to the remarks implying that I'm racist, spreading Nazi propagada or pathetic. I will say that seeing it here on a public forum to which I believed was a grade above the rest, and seeing that my words were twisted to suit others own agenda's has been hurtful to say the least. This has been far from a decent debate.

(...)

On a final note before resigning I want to thank Infamous for being so kind during the short time I was here.

You truly exemplify what it means to be a honorable, decent, and caring human being.

 

I was really upset yesterday when I read your post (because it goes against many of my beliefs), that's why I may have used words that are offending or implied things I didn't mean to: I never meant to imply you are racist/nazi if I really had to give a judgement I would say that you are right wing in politics (but I haven't read many of your posts). And I understand now thanks to Big Dog that it was too extreme as a comparison, I explained as well though why I made the comparison.

So I give you my (public) excuses and promise that I try not letting myself post when I'm upset

 

Eventually I ask you one last thing: do not judge all hypography-forum based on my two posts. You can still post and just ignore my posts for example....