Crime and society

[Boerseun]

Recently, I read up an account about Monkey Island in the London Zoo between 1925-1931.

 

Basically, what they did was to take a bunch of Hamadryas baboons and chuck them into a small area built to look like an island - about forty or fifty meters across and moated so the baboons can't get out. They did this without properly understanding baboon social dynamics - or caring, I guess.

Nevertheless, the end result was that the normally complacent baboons turned into viscious killers, with one single baboon baby the sole survivor after six years. They turned into killers and fighters because of unnatural social pressures enforced upon them.

 

The question is to what extent is criminality predetermined?

 

Is it a coincidence that the vast majority of human rapists, murderers and thieves are from the same social strata? The ghetto is the feedstock for murderers, rapists, gangstas etc. - 99% of jail inmates share a comparable backgroud and history. Because they don't contribute much to the State's coffers, the State don't want to spend enough to change their environment for the better, with the benefit paying out in the long term.

 

Once again, the question: To what extent was their criminality predetermined? Would they have been criminals if they weren't cooped up in the unnatural social dynamics of the 'ghetto'? So who's to blame for a rape - the accused standing in the dock, or the City Council who can't give a rat's *** to the state of the ghetto?

 

I'm not trying to absolve them of their crimes, I just think that these situations might be comparable to the Hamadryas baboons, where unnatural conditions might spark unnatural reactions.

 

Any thoughts?

[Queso]

my thoughts are far too jaded, but i've got to say you've found something very funny, and verry plausible.

[Drip Curl Magic]

I think you've got a very good point... but then again... we are not designed to have pity upon someone who grew up in a hard neighborhood. Nor are we designed to be able to understand what it's like to not grow up in the ghetto if we, ourselves grew up in the ghetto. The only reason anyone does anything is because they think it's right.

[Racoon]

A very well thought out idea.

I am vey interested in sociology as well.

The same idea can be applied to the rat cage. As more and more rats inhabit the same territory, the more disobedience insues.

The key factor here is COMPETITION for resources!

The baboon experiment is akin to probably took place on Easter Island.

The same can be said for 'ghettos'. With few resources and many inhabitants, you're likely to find said 'BAD' behaviour. It is as natural in humans as it is in baboons, rats, and other animals.

Give people from the ghetto resources, like good food, an education, transportation, medical care, and you will see that they become productive, intelligent members of society.

The problem is that there are simply too many people for too few resources.

Plus add in Drugs and guns, and it's no wonder people want to neglect the ghettos.

[CraigD]

… Basically, what they did was to take a bunch of Hamadryas baboons and chuck them into a small area built to look like an island - about forty or fifty meters across and moated so the baboons can't get out.

…

Any thoughts?

I think that if you took a bunch of humans (of practically any socioeconomic status) and chucked them into a small area built to look like an island - about forty or fifty meters across and moated so the humans can't get out, things would turn about about the same after 6 years as with the baboons.

[Boerseun]

Thanks for the replies.

 

As an example:

 

You get somebody trying to emulate, say, Snoop Dogg or somebody, doin' the whole ghetto gangsta thing and guns and drugs and girls and all the required bling to impress his competitors. He longs to be the Alpha male in his troop. My point is: Did he decide to become a gangsta, or did social pressure brought upon him by unnatural living conditions done so? Is he a human being trying to find a meaningful life, or is he simply a monkey in a cage, acting as such, quite predictably at that?

 

Interesting...

 

Small-town living is then probably the closest we'll come to what human nature is supposed to be, and the life-style that resonates the best with the human psyche. (Think small troop of social animals, everybody knowing each other, etc.) Neuroses and psychological issues are more common per capita in the bigger cities, and I think it's because even for the affluent, big city living is not what the human condition is about. Living amongst a bunch of strangers doesn't seem to be good for you.

[Queso]

Living amongst a bunch of strangers doesn't seem to be good for you.

 

wow. very very interesting. i never even thought of that, it makes so much sense.

thanks for the insight BIG B:singer:

[Boerseun]

Thanks, Orby. I've lived in cities and small towns, and lemme tell you, I will not move back to the city for any money in the world. Chasing money at the expense of my soul just doesn't seem to be the thing to do, anymore. And, heck, if I can justify it socialogically, why not? :cup:

 

Another thought that still needs time to pan out:

If it is indeed true that living amongst strangers be bad for you, how's the Internet and forums such as these going to affect humans in the long run? So-called 'Globalization' will probably kill off whatever tiny grain of humanity is still left in the world.

 

Okay - I know - slightly off-topic, but, hey... give a snake a break, okay?

[Queso]

i want to live like that so bad! but i dont know where to start.....

do you have any suggestions for a kid like me_

[CraigD]

… Small-town living is then probably the closest we'll come to what human nature is supposed to be, and the life-style that resonates the best with the human psyche. (Think small troop of social animals, everybody knowing each other, etc.) Neuroses and psychological issues are more common per capita in the bigger cities, and I think it's because even for the affluent, big city living is not what the human condition is about. Living amongst a bunch of strangers doesn't seem to be good for you.

As a small town (Athens, WV, USA) boy living in a semi-big city (greater Washington, DC), I agree – small town living feels more natural.

 

So essential is the “troop” feeling, that we denizens of 1,000,000+ populations seem to form virtual societies – neighborhoods, workplace friendships, social clubs - of about the same size as our all-inclusive small town ones (a few hundred individuals).

 

Here’s a counter-intuitive statistic - in many states – West Virginia, in particular - the per-capita crime rates, especially “crimes of passion” – assault, murder, etc. – is substantially higher is small towns than large ones. My home town, Athens, population 2,000-5,000 (depending on college term schedule), actually has a murder rate of about 2 every decade, for a per-capita annual rate of 10/100,000 – about twice the rate of “troubled” cities, such as San Jose, CA, and half the average of the worst US cities, such as Los Angeles CA and Washington DC.

 

Happiness, lawfulness, and safety appear to be only loosely correlated.

[Boerseun]

Interesting observation, Craig.

 

Another angle on it:

 

If (and I've experienced the same thing when I was living and working in Johannesburg - +-3 million people) 'virtual societies' are formed, consisting of you, your family, your friends and acquaintances, inside this vast population, and you still do the day-to-day thing like working, commuting, etc., you'll still be surrounded by millions of 'invisible' individuals. You do your shopping at a mall, and the person hitting the cash register on your behalf would be a 'non-person', a functionary doing his/her job so that you can run your credit card through their machine. You don't know the person, and the moment you've taken your purchases and left the store, the reality of that person's existence leaves your mind. He or she simply disappears from your life. You will remember your 'virtual society', because that's where you interact. Would this not bring the value of an average 'invisible' person in your city down, in your eyes?

 

If you read about a murder, you are disassociated from it because chances are overwhelmingly against you actually knowing the victim. In your 3,000 population home town, chances are good you would've know the victim, and be moved by the killing. If you go to the doctor in your hometown, you'd put more trust (subconsciously) in him, because he removed the callouses from your grandpa's feet fifty years ago, and is a close friend of the family. In the city, your doctor would likely turn out to be some fresh-faced recently graduated unknown 'invisible' person, who don't care about you or your family apart from being a source of income. And every time you go back there, you'd probably see a different doctor.

 

I'm trying to make sense of the stats of your hometown. There are a lot of variables at play there, however. What's the average income for your town? Mostly blue/white collar? Does it represent an 'average' town? Is there racial tension? What would be the typical murder there - intentional, accidental through a robbery gone wrong, manslaughter?

[Turtle]

Another thought that still needs time to pan out:

If it is indeed true that living amongst strangers be bad for you, how's the Internet and forums such as these going to affect humans in the long run? So-called 'Globalization' will probably kill off whatever tiny grain of humanity is still left in the world.

 

Okay - I know - slightly off-topic, but, hey... give a snake a break, okay?

 

___From a recluses point of view, the count of strangers is immaterial. They constitute one set of people, & moreover we call the set "they" or "them". Now I have no great desire to make new friends, but any friend starts as a stranger.

___I find this internet business is not a bane to people, but a boon. Time to think through thoughts in a heated exchange, no threatening looks or gestures to deal with; just straight talk. No interuptions. Type what you want to say & let fly. I find the exchange is self governing & has an element of fairness.

___I like it; I give it about a 73% approval rating.:cup:

[Drip Curl Magic]

i want to live like that so bad! but i dont know where to start.....

do you have any suggestions for a kid like me_

 

jason, come live with me in patterson, man!

[Queso]

jason, come live with me in patterson, man!

 

patterson sucks, my friend. :cup:

[Drip Curl Magic]

you're right, it does. It's a good start, though. We should just move to british columbia and grow hella weed in our backyard, dude.

[Queso]

shhh! keep those kinds of things OFF of the forums, mr. magic.

but wait, is it legal in british columbia to do that?

because if so, well i guess there isnt a problem with that post.

anyways, that is something ive always wanted to do. of course, somewhere where it is completely legal to do so. i would never even dare try here in california. the last thing i want to deal with are a bunch of people trying to tell me what to do in strange costumes and i just dont want to listen but they make me with brute force!

[Drip Curl Magic]

shhh! keep those kinds of things OFF of the forums, mr. magic.

but wait, is it legal in british columbia to do that?

because if so, well i guess there isnt a problem with that post.

anyways, that is something ive always wanted to do. of course, somewhere where it is completely legal to do so. i would never even dare try here in california. the last thing i want to deal with are a bunch of people trying to tell me what to do in strange costumes and i just dont want to listen but they make me with brute force!

 

It's entirely legal. :cup: