Crime and society

[questor]

if Tiger Woods did not play golf, he would not make 50 million dollars. he would

then not be able to give millions to his disadvantaged kids programs, which gives them hope. Nike would not need as many ''slaves'' to produce merchandise,therefore these slaves would make nothing at all. i'm sure they would prefer to make zero. the other products he advertises would also see a

diminution of income which may mean those companies could lay off some workers otherwise needed. the tournaments would not draw as many people, meaning that the clubs that host the tournaments would not have to hire and pay more workers to help in the endeavor. the TV stations would not have to pay salaries for their field crews, broadcasters, editors, etc. and of course Tiger could not pay the US Gov. about 38% of this money in taxes so the welfare people could get their checks for sitting on their asses. so you're correct Boersun, Tiger is EVIL.

[Boerseun]

A couple of good points you've raised there.

 

BUT - and here's the big story:

 

Tiger Woods is the spokesman for the advertisers (by making his body available as a billboard).

The reason he is the spokesman, is because he's particularly good at a specific waste of time that's irrelevant in the Great Scheme of Things (golf).

The reason that this particular waste of time is elevated to these levels, is so that Tiger Woods (or someone better at it) can become a walking billboard.

Like you said, it keeps the economy going through increasing sales etc. No disagreement there.

Increased sales imply increased labour required. Alternatively, increased sales will make it possible for Big Factories to automate, laying off labour, increasing the bottom line for its shareholders.

Increased labour implies more sweatshops. Granted, the workers could go and work somewhere else or not at all. The System, however, demands from them to work in order to buy bread.

Any one of these labourers can better him- or herself, rising in the ranks, get promoted, eventually buy shares. Any individual worker can conceivably own the company after a couple of years. The possibilities certainly exist.

BUT - any single worker rising through the ranks can only do so if replaced with another lowly-paid worker.

In other words, the whole system is dependent on poverty, and the perpetuation thereof.

If everybody suddenly became rich, Tiger Woods'll be out of a job, because Nike won't advertise - there won't be any cheap labour to manufacture overpriced sneakers anymore.

 

Yep. Tiger Woods is Satan himself...:shrug:

[questor]

Boersun, in reading your post, i wonder what you're saying? you don't like Tiger? because he makes money? you don't like golf? a sport which is played

by millions of all colors and incomes for recreation? you don't like the fact that people have to do something (work) in return for subsistence?

''BUT - any single worker rising through the ranks can only do so if replaced with another lowly-paid worker.

In other words, the whole system is dependent on poverty, and the perpetuation thereof.'' your quote.

so you figure that the only source of labor is a poverty-stricken pool of poor

souls who are being kept poor by some means?

what kind of world do you live in?

[niviene]

He's right..... the majority of labor comes from the "poor" end of the money stick. Obviously labor is done by those who can be easily replaced, jobs that pay little, as the work can be done by almost anyone without any wasted time/money for training....

 

I don't care for Tiger Woods one way or the other, but I do hate that anything I want to watch is constantly battling to shove its products in front of my face like a child needing attention... another thing that bothers me is College Sports - those kids aren't allowed to make any money, but the schools make tons of money off of them... and still, we have to have things like the "Tostitos Fiesta Bowl" or the "Chik-Fil-A Whatever Bowl"....

[lindagarrette]

how does capitalism encourage the strong to victimize the weak? where could i see evidence of a strong person victimizing a a weak person ?

The profit motive is an economic equivalent to survival of the fittest.

[questor]

Linda, some of your comments amaze me. your last gem:

''The profit motive is an economic equivalent to survival of the fittest.''

what should be the motive of someone who opens a business? what would be YOUR motive if you had a business?

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Intersting thread. I see that folks are pretty much lined up where they always are.

What is crime, anyway? If you're going to discuss it, shouldn't you make sure we're all talking about the same thing?

If 51 out of 100 people decide that 3 out of the 100 have more than 'their fair share of the wealth', if they decide that they are within their 'rights' to take it and split it up, is it a crime?

Is the definition of crime something which people have to agree to or is it deeper than that?

[lindagarrette]

Linda, some of your comments amaze me. your last gem:

''The profit motive is an economic equivalent to survival of the fittest.''

what should be the motive of someone who opens a business? what would be YOUR motive if you had a business?

I have owned a business for many years. My motive is to make a profit

[ldsoftwaresteve]

lindagarette:

I have owned a business for many years. My motive is to make a profit

Were you playing devil's advocate then?

Do you believe there is a fundamental act at the bottom of all crime? And if so, do you have any ideas as to what it might be?

Or do you think it's too complicated to figure out?

No common thread?

Personally, I don't like complexity for its own sake. I think that in cases like this, in the 'humanities', I think we obfuscate the issues on purpose. Clarity would lead to large changes in societal norms. Better to keep it confusing, muddy, cloudy, and shitty. That gives the manipulators more tools, more power and maintains the status quo.

That gives the 'aristocracy' (Bush, et al) their position and keeps the folks showing up at the factory with their grade 12 indoctrination. (I'm one of them)

I quote George W Bush from the movie Farenheit 911. "I see before me the haves and the have mores. I consider you my base." There was something very criminal in his statement and it shocked me. I can't put my finger on why though. All I know is that everything else he did had little effect. When I heard that, well, I changed. I've been trying to figure it out ever since. Any help would be appreciated.

[questor]

there are many types of crime. it shouldn't be difficult to spot a crime. why not ask yourself if you would like that particular activity directed at you for starters?

crimes are not decided by majority vote, or what the majority thinks is ''fair''.

if a person is familiar with the Ten Commandments, he can find guidance there.

[questor]

Linda, i'm trying to understand your reasoning. you said:

 

''I have owned a business for many years. My motive is to make a profit''

 

you have criticized the wealthy in other posts, so should we assume you want to make a little profit, but not enough to become wealthy?

are you saying it is ok for you to make a profit, but not other people?

would you mind giving your profit to people who do not work?

 

what are you selling in your business?

[lindagarrette]

Linda, i'm trying to understand your reasoning. you said:

 

''I have owned a business for many years. My motive is to make a profit''

 

you have criticized the wealthy in other posts, so should we assume you want to make a little profit, but not enough to become wealthy?

are you saying it is ok for you to make a profit, but not other people?

would you mind giving your profit to people who do not work?

 

what are you selling in your business?

I am not criticising anyone. My comments are not personal. It's the system that's unjust.

 

I own a Transmission Repair Center, which I purchased on my own with an SBA loan. My purpose it to run an honest business, treat customers well, pay my employees a fair wage for their work, and use my proceeds to expand and improve the service I offer.

[questor]

the system is not unjust. it is set up to reward brains, talent, ambition and hard work. the system is composed of all of us, and its biggest advantage is freedom. you are free to prosper and you are free to fail. if you're not getting what you want, look within yourself . no one is holding you back but yourself. if you want more success, why not open another transmission repair shop.

double your profit. ever heard of Meineke? nobody is in your way. there is nothing wrong with the system. how would you define the perfect system?

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Questor:

there are many types of crime. it shouldn't be difficult to spot a crime. why not ask yourself if you would like that particular activity directed at you for starters?

crimes are not decided by majority vote, or what the majority thinks is ''fair''.

if a person is familiar with the Ten Commandments, he can find guidance there.

Hmmm. Nobody wants to bite on this one. So the discussion will go nowhere.

A little bit of reasoning is enough then? we don't want to go too far for fear of what we might see? Are you afraid that you'll come face to face with something you're doing wrong? I mean really wrong, not just bible wrong.

The light of reason can be pointed at all things except....where?

Perhaps we'd conflict with religion and the domain of these '15 comm....oops, crash...uh 10, 10 commandments!' ?

[questor]

if you don't like the words 10 Commandments, why not just call it 10 good rules to live by. i'm sure we could all add a few rules also. other than that, i didn't get the drift of your other comments.

[ldsoftwaresteve]

Questor:

if you don't like the words 10 Commandments, why not just call it 10 good rules to live by. i'm sure we could all add a few rules also. other than that, i didn't get the drift of your other comments.

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood. I don't have them often and I don't mean to imply that it is proper for me to be rude. It isn't. Actually, in a lily white sense, it might even border on criminal.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that crime is an improper act for a human being. Until now, however, the line between proper behavior and crime has been dictated by commandments which work, to a point.

 

Assuming that there is logic behind those commandments, because it isn't visible, we don't know the intent behind them. Those who wish to 'expand' the limits of valid human action have driven wedges into that non-existent logic and we have made laws that make our choices for us and steal our wealth from us and occasionally send our children off to foreign lands to die because someone thinks it is a 'good' cause. Then we find out later that the 'reasons' were bogus and nobody is held responsible. That's called, "turning a blind eye". That is criminal too and might be the root of all crime.

 

Or, are some people (the haves and the have mores) above the law?

 

What is it that leads to a criminal act? Is it a thought process? What? You say that you can spot crime and that it is self evident. But I don't think you can. If you could you'd be calling for the impeachment and arrest of the people who lied to us and caused the deaths of so many people. It's murder, plain and simple.

 

No, they won't be held accountable because we don't know what crime is. And until we get a grip on it, and understand that it applies to many things and has at its root a faulty thought process, it'll just keep on happening. We only see the tip of the iceberg, just the obvious things but it happens all the time, even on this website.

 

I really am in a bad mood and I apologize for my hurtful remarks. You're a good person. But I have a point.

[lindagarrette]

the system is not unjust. it is set up to reward brains, talent, ambition and hard work. the system is composed of all of us, and its biggest advantage is freedom. you are free to prosper and you are free to fail. if you're not getting what you want, look within yourself . no one is holding you back but yourself. if you want more success, why not open another transmission repair shop.

double your profit. ever heard of Meineke? nobody is in your way. there is nothing wrong with the system. how would you define the perfect system?

There is no right or wrong, there just is. Perfect is whatever works at the monent. Nature and the economic system we live in maximize survival of the fittest. Only humans can rise above this law to provide for the less fortunate.