Crime and society

[Drip Curl Magic]

ANYWAYS, we've gone way off topic.... sorry, resume...

[Queso]

well then sounds like a mighty fine place to set up my recording studio.

i thought about setting it up on the moon...but i think i would miss earth up there so badly that i would go mad. there would be no inspiration to make music...just an endless desire to hop from rock to rock by the riverside.

[Queso]

ANYWAYS, we've gone way off topic.... sorry, resume...

 

oh yes, indeed. :cup:

[Drip Curl Magic]

well then sounds like a mighty fine place to set up my recording studio.

i thought about setting it up on the moon...but i think i would miss earth up there so badly that i would go mad. there would be no inspiration to make music...just an endless desire to hop from rock to rock by the riverside.

 

 

Although, the moon might be a cool place to record just one album or something....

[Queso]

Although, the moon might be a cool place to record just one album or something....

 

brilliant. :cup:

[Drip Curl Magic]

no, the sun is brilliant... the moon is dim.

[Boerseun]

Orby, you wanna start your recording studio and grow weed, and live in an awesome environment, come to Africa, my friend...

 

But besides that, can we come back to that there topic thingy?

[CraigD]

You do your shopping at a mall, and the person hitting the cash register on your behalf would be a 'non-person', a functionary doing his/her job …

A very accurate description of not-a-good-thing, I think, and one I’m personally at a loss to which to propose a solution.

 

An acquaintance of mine’s approach was to completely refuse to accept such anonymity – unless the clerk in a store or the server in a resturant would speak to him, disclosing their name and some sort of personal information, he’d refuse service. Some of the time, this came across as amazingly nice, but most of the time, it came across as some combination of scary and irritating.

 

The only feasible approach I can see is the promotion of neighborhood-based business. For years, I preferred to shop the “corner store” near my apartment (in Takoma Park, MD), even though its stock was sparse, often dusty, and usually overpriced, because I knew the owner/operators by name, had been in their homes, etc. Such businesses and customers are exceptional, however, and somewhat artificial. My income was high compared to my neighbors, so paying more for less was more practical for me than for most of them. Also, this neighborhood was far from nice – property crime was rampant, rapes and mugging not infrequent, and, in my few years there, there was one actual fatal drive-by shooting (a teenage 2-boys-for-1-girl scenario).

I'm trying to make sense of the stats of your hometown. There are a lot of variables at play there, however. What's the average income for your town? Mostly blue/white collar?

My estimated census of Athens, WV, is: 3000 college student population, for whom current income is not very relevant; about 500 college staff and faculty; about 750 retirees; and about 750 commuters with jobs ranging from service (Year2005 US$ 16K/year) to professional ($50-$100K)

Does it represent an 'average' town?

No, it is very much a “college town”.

Is there racial tension?

Very little. The southern part of WV in which it is located has little recognizable racial diversity - it is nearly 100% white. While many of its denizens are what a reasonable person would describe as “racist”, in my experience this racism is largely hypothetical.

What would be the typical murder there - intentional, accidental through a robbery gone wrong, manslaughter?

This is surprisingly difficult data to find – incidents of murder are well documented by the local newspaper, but the details are not. I have personal knowledge of only 4, 3 from the 1970s and80s, and one from 2000. 3 were shooting over to disputes concerning romantic attachments (2 hetero, 1 homosexual). 1 was, IMO, stupid and accidental, the result of a unarmed fight between a construction contractor and an employee of a supplier over the price of concrete.

[Boerseun]

Sounds like a nice little town, to tell the truth.

 

I kinda like your idea about doing business in the neighbourhood, and I like the idea of getting beyond anonimity in generally anonymous transactions - although this might be sufficient reason for someone to call the cops (!).

 

The other issue with 'virtual societies' within cities, is that, say, my 'virtual society' exist out of 100 individuals, none of them will share the same 'society' with me. A friend from work will fall into my list of a hundred people, but he'll have his own list of which I'm a member. Our loyalties towards 'The Group' will be towards different groups of people. The important bit is where his group and my group overlaps, mutual friends, etc.

 

I think the only certain 'group/troop' we do have, is our families. The rest of the people are transients coming and going throughout our lives. Even marriage isn't a failsafe method of locking someone into your 'group' anymore.

 

But besides - I'm rambling again - Modern Earth with a population of 6billion+ can't afford a big rural population. But if you can get around to living in a small town, I highly recommend it.

[Cedars]

Interesting idea but to compare the baboon situation with an inner city ghetto is more comparable to a jail/prison condition. For there is no escape for the baboon in captivity.

 

But to try to compare, I think it would work to look at isolated populations of baboons in their natural environment. Such as the fragmented wilderness/park areas. Overcrowding in parks has lead to problems for wildlife within. What does the natural flow entail? So are the weaker animals driven out of this refuge and what remains are the more powerful and dominate Alpha types?

 

How many of the powerful in the ghettos attempt to flee their situation? The rich gansta types do not find a space elsewhere, they seem to stake out their territory and attempt to drive those who compete (whether cops, honest civilians or other gangs) with their goals out of the territory.

 

And if you take out the gang activity in these inner city situations are the crime rates any higher than across the "normal" social conditions elsewhere? I have to agree with the post Craig D stated. I have often (without statistics to back this up) thought the violence in more rural areas is similar in numbers across distances of lower populations. Its just there is more open space between the occurances.

[questor]

Craig, you better recompute your murder statistics. Washington, DC has around 600,000 inhabitants. here are some stats:

 

Crime Rates for Selected Large Cities, 2002

(offenses known to the police per 100,000 inhabitants)

City ranked by

population size, 20021 Crime

index,

total Violent crime Property crime

Murder Forcible

rape Robbery Aggravated

assault Burglary Larceny-

theft Motor

vehicle

theft

New York, N.Y. 3,100.1 7.3 20.9 336.8 424.7 372.3 1,603.7 334.4

Los Angeles, Calif. 4,986.0 17.1 36.9 448.9 846.6 662.4 2,083.6 890.5

Chicago, Ill. (2) 22.1 (2) 630.7 845.5 869.6 3,280.1 859.2

Houston, Tex. 7,313.9 12.5 43.7 549.5 617.4 1,318.5 3,599.2 1,173.1

Philadelphia, Pa. 5,471.1 18.9 67.9 581.9 647.2 737.7 2,544.8 872.7

Phoenix, Ariz. 7,823.5 12.6 29.2 290.0 395.8 1,199.7 4,072.4 1,823.9

San Diego, Calif. 3,951.9 3.7 26.0 128.3 409.1 602.3 1,937.7 844.8

Dallas, Tex. 9,024.7 15.8 52.8 647.7 654.5 1,639.3 4,535.4 1,479.3

San Antonio, Tex. 7,873.3 8.4 38.8 176.8 593.1 1,118.1 5,457.6 480.4

Las Vegas, Nev.3 4,924.8 11.9 42.8 327.3 396.5 965.4 2,098.2 1,082.7

Detroit, Mich. 8,839.5 41.8 73.6 653.6 1,303.8 1,496.8 2,790.0 2,480.0

San Jose, Calif. 2,601.7 2.8 40.8 89.1 312.8 326.1 1,470.3 359.7

Honolulu, Hawaii 6,360.4 2.0 33.8 119.1 134.0 992.0 4,136.9 942.7

Indianapolis, Ind.3 6,032.5 13.9 54.8 365.3 501.0 1,201.7 3,087.1 808.7

San Francisco, Calif. 5,299.0 8.4 26.1 398.4 319.5 738.5 3,038.5 769.6

Jacksonville, Fla. 6,632.5 11.7 36.0 262.1 605.8 1,192.5 3,820.7 703.8

Columbus, Ohio 9,257.7 11.3 94.0 489.4 313.2 2,244.7 5,038.6 1,066.5

Austin, Tex. 7,267.1 3.6 37.3 171.2 254.9 1,008.5 4,334.5 457.1

Baltimore, Md. 8,318.6 37.7 26.5 702.5 1,288.2 1,305.3 3,981.4 977.0

Memphis, Tenn. 9,947.2 22.5 78.0 640.7 831.2 2,469.7 4,513.5 1,391.7

Charlotte-Mecklenburg, N.C. 7,512.7 10.4 44.7 447.2 670.0 1,625.7 3,997.7 717.0

Milwaukee, Wis. 7,647.8 18.3 53.8 527.9 354.7 1,143.0 4,363.3 1,186.8

Boston, Mass. 5,986.5 10.1 61.9 424.7 669.6 642.1 2,988.4 1,189.7

El Paso, Tex. 4,585.6 2.4 37.5 97.7 523.5 377.2 3,208.0 339.4

Seattle, Wash. 8,004.3 4.5 26.2 271.7 403.0 1,256.7 4,610.0 1,432.2

Washington, DC 7,767.9 45.9 45.9 653.5 850.2 905.1 3,661.4 1,605

[questor]

my chart is not easily readable. the murder rate in DC is 45.9% per 100,000.

this comes out to 275.4 for DC in the year named. it's mostly black on black.

i don't know why there is any question as to the causes of this situation.

poor housing, crowded living conditions, no father influence, drug culture, violent rap music, lack of education, and admiration of the ''gangsta'' society.

of course ,for those incapable of cause and effect reasoning, it is the fault of the whites. if the whites were not involved all of these problems would disappear, the blacks would pursue graduate degrees, give up drugs, stop having illegitimate babies, and enjoy classical music.

[lindagarrette]

my chart is not easily readable. the murder rate in DC is 45.9% per 100,000.

this comes out to 275.4 for DC in the year named. it's mostly black on black.

i don't know why there is any question as to the causes of this situation.

poor housing, crowded living conditions, no father influence, drug culture, violent rap music, lack of education, and admiration of the ''gangsta'' society.

You listed symptoms. The cause is poverty. The cure is providing everyone with the same opportunities. That means the wealthy have to sacrifice and since they are in power, that's unlikely to happen. So we''re stuck with how it is.

[questor]

Linda, who is responsible for providing everyone with equal opportunities ? how will this be done, and what do the recipients have to do when they get the opportunity ? or are you just suggesting that we take the money from the rich and give it to the poor, with no responsibility for the poor to improve themselves ? i assume you will ask the police or some government agency to go to the wealthy and confiscate their assets. do you intend to be one of the rich, or one of the poor ?

[lindagarrette]

Linda, who is responsible for providing everyone with equal opportunities ? how will this be done, and what do the recipients have to do when they get the opportunity ? or are you just suggesting that we take the money from the rich and give it to the poor, with no responsibility for the poor to improve themselves ? i assume you will ask the police or some government agency to go to the wealthy and confiscate their assets. do you intend to be one of the rich, or one of the poor ?

In a capitalist society, there is no solution to the poverty problem because that system allows, and even encourages the strong to victimize the weak. Otherwise there would not be such a huge gap between the wealthy and the poor. Why does the CEO of a company make 500 times the amount of money as the average worker? Does he work that much harder, or have that much more skill? I don't think so. I think we allow greed to become a major driving force.

 

Greed is also a driving force in crime. People take things that don't belong to them either because they are desperately needy or because they are greedy. Those are separate factors and must be dealt with separately. Greed is a more serious offense. It applies to very wealthy people as well as poor.

[questor]

Linda, you said:

''In a capitalist society, there is no solution to the poverty problem because that system allows, and even encourages the strong to victimize the weak. Otherwise there would not be such a huge gap between the wealthy and the poor. Why does the CEO of a company make 500 times the amount of money as the average worker? Does he work that much harder, or have that much more skill? I don't think so. I think we allow greed to become a major driving force.''

how does capitalism encourage the strong to victimize the weak? where could i see evidence of a strong person victimizing a a weak person ?

the gap between the rich and the poor exist because the rich make a lot more money! the market determines the value of a worker, not your idea of fairness. why does Tiger Woods make 50 million a year playing golf ? is he victimizing a weak person ? does he get paid for greed, or because he does

something better than others? why does the weak victim perpetuate his weakness? if one is born poor (or weak), is there a law or rule that he must remain weak?

[Boerseun]

how does capitalism encourage the strong to victimize the weak? where could i see evidence of a strong person victimizing a a weak person ?

the gap between the rich and the poor exist because the rich make a lot more money! the market determines the value of a worker, not your idea of fairness. why does Tiger Woods make 50 million a year playing golf ? is he victimizing a weak person ? does he get paid for greed, or because he does

something better than others? why does the weak victim perpetuate his weakness? if one is born poor (or weak), is there a law or rule that he must remain weak?

Tiger Woods doesn't make 50 million a year playing golf. Tiger Woods sold his body as a walking billboard for clothing and footwear companies running sweatshops, perpetuating poverty and 'slavery'. Tiger Woods is an advertisement 'whore', and is a very good representative of all that is wrong with the 'System'. The golf (like all other so-called 'professional' sports), is a sideline. They will get around to playing the game once they've pitched the merchandise.

There are millions of workers being forced to sweat it out for a dollar a day so that Mr. Woods can have a stroll in the countryside chasing a little white ball.

And our consumer society laps this utter BS up, going back for second helpings every chance we get. Why? Because it's in the interest of Big Companies (Nike, etc.) that something so utterly pointless in the Great Scheme of Things like a game of golf is elevated to these ridiculous levels. I'd rather watch paint dry than speculate on Tiger Woods's follow-through with a three iron. The longer the game drags on, the more exposure time for logo's, products, brand names. The same could be said for any professional sport.

Go and watch television with a stopwatch. Start the watch every time a product or service is being pitched, and stop it when normal programming continues. See how much you were exposed to utter commercial stupidity and insanity after 1 hour of watching. 50% of the time would be a good guess.

I've made a point of not watching TV anymore because of this.

And you know the irony behind all of this? I've got my own advertising company. I'll change the System from within, with subtle messages that you can only see if you run the message in reverse...:shrug: