Abortion: Murder

[HydrogenBond]

Although the data says that some forms of behavior can give risk to the unborn, what about those who can do those things without any apparent effect on the unborn. These women are losing rights because of onesided data. Our culture is reducing everything down to the lowest common demoninator. Many woman are not the lowest common denominator, and should be exempt from the biased data.

[rockytriton]

On top of that..

 

Ok, there have been studies that show that smoking affects the unborn child. There have also been studies that show that second hand smoke affects people. So, if we are to disallow a woman who is pregnant to smoke, logic determines that we should disallow anyone to smoke around another person. So, if we hold a woman as a criminal for smoking while pregnant, logically, we should determine a parent is a criminal for smoking in the car with thieir kid. Some people want to have their ideology and ignore it too.

[cwes99_03]

nope i'm all for it, ban smoking, there are no benefits to it that you can't get somewhere else.

 

Although the data says that some forms of behavior can give risk to the unborn, what about those who can do those things without any apparent effect on the unborn. These women are losing rights because of onesided data. Our culture is reducing everything down to the lowest common demoninator. Many woman are not the lowest common denominator, and should be exempt from the biased data.

 

Can't quite make heads or tails of this.

[cwes99_03]

I guess what I'm saying is that if you want a more nearly perfect society, these are the things you'd have to do. But once there you'd find out that you were now living life the way (my belief here) God intended it.

Hence the problem with the world, they only want to fight the idea that there is a God who knows what is best for them. They think they can figure it out for themselves, including many if not all on this site (myself included sometimes).

 

Well almost, i have one more point for the website citing dolphins have recreational sex. I think that on this website, one would look for a more scientific site. This website, is particularly geared toward proving urban legends. Not necessarily a scientific site. In this case they only cited one source. (though I applaud them for citing anything)

 

I have a question that is off topic for evolutionists. How does a behavior that has no procreational need develop?

[Rincewind]

But explain to me where the practical advantages of any of my suggestions is wrong. If we only had sex after marriage, then there would be a lot fewer problems. ... Go back to Biblical laws on marriage.

The Bible is only relevant to Christians, and those who, like many here (myself included) choose to subscribe to Christianity and Christian principles. It is not, however, the be-all and end-all of morality and moral thinking on Earth. Others' philosophies are as valid as ours, and we cannot impose our philosophies on those who subscribe to other equally legitimate religions or philosophical systems. That is just plain arrogance.

 

Abortion can only be an evil if the aborted zygote or fœtus can be said to be a full human being; in Christian terms, to have or be a soul (depending on your interpretation of scriptures).

 

The only reference I have ever found in the Bible that is at all useful in determining that point in time is in Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." This would seem to suggest that Life begins at the drawing of the first breath. Does anyone know of any other relevant references that I might have missed?

[Rincewind]

No, but I was referring to your ideal society that live like in the Biblical Times.

The societies described in my Bible could hardly be called ideal (unless you're referring to the first chapter or two of Genesis, and two people hardly make up a society). I think that's why they had all those prophets turning up to tell them where they were going wrong.

[cwes99_03]

You might be missing the point that since Adam was not born but made, he was not alive until God made him alive. The Bible also points out several, many, lots of times that God knows a person (to be called a person on this forum was the definition of life) from conception, during the creation of one's kidneys etc.

Thank you all, I'll leave this discussion having made my points.

I have a question that is off topic for evolutionists. How does a behavior that has no procreational need develop?

[CraigD]

The Bible also points out several, many, lots of times that God knows a person (to be called a person on this forum was the definition of life) from conception, during the creation of one's kidneys etc.

I've heard this claim many times, but never citing specific verses of the Bible. I'm unable to find such verses by searching for "conception", "kidney", etc. Can you provide specific verses?

[goku]

I'll rephrase, do chickens lay anything that resembles a chicken?

no, chickens and eggs look different.

but, when i see a chicken egg i think of chickens. bok bok bokayk

[goku]

the thing is alive because it is possible for it to be dead. if it could never be dead or killed then it isn't alive.

the thing is a baby

the baby is human because it isn't a goat or chicken, or any other animal.

therefore,

the baby is alive, a person causes it to be dead on purpose=murder

[rockytriton]

I see you trying to use logic, but you are skipping the logic steps where you prove that a fetus is a baby. I think that this is where the social issue gets blurry, a baby is born, a fetus isn't born.

[Edge]

I guess what I'm saying is that if you want a more nearly perfect society, these are the things you'd have to do. But once there you'd find out that you were now living life the way (my belief here) God intended it.

Like which things to do? Make them responsible? Make them conscious? OK, I agree with that.

Hence the problem with the world, they only want to fight the idea that there is a God who knows what is best for them. They think they can figure it out for themselves, including many if not all on this site (myself included sometimes).

Well, God gave us intelligence, reason enough to figure out things by ourselves. We aren't perfect, but we aren't that dumb either.

 

Well almost, i have one more point for the website citing dolphins have recreational sex. I think that on this website, one would look for a more scientific site. This website, is particularly geared toward proving urban legends. Not necessarily a scientific site. In this case they only cited one source. (though I applaud them for citing anything)

Yeah, it is for urban legends. Yet, they do their research before confirminf anything as true or false.

 

I have a question that is off topic for evolutionists. How does a behavior that has no procreational need develop?

Way to change the subject. You are now attacking the evolution theory because you have found that sex is not only for procreation. Two species do it, naturally. So, why it is bad for humans to have sex for pleasure? You are now saying that people should not have sex for pleasure because of your beliefs. Well, those are your beliefs. I only ask to those people to be responsible, they can have all the sex they want, just be responsible for your consequences.

 

And again:

 

It is only a dream, until the courts make it a reality. Martin Luther King, Jr. had a dream.

 

What do you mean with the courts making your biblical times society idea true?

[lindagarrette]

I've heard this claim many times, but never citing specific verses of the Bible. I'm unable to find such verses by searching for "conception", "kidney", etc. Can you provide specific verses?

Catholics believe there is a point in the development of a fetus called the "quickening" which means after that the fetus becomes a human being. I'm not sure how they are able to detect that but it's the doctrine. Also, a soul is imparted into an embryo upon conception so if the embryo dies, I suppose the soul lives on. Wonder where was the soul before conception? There must be lots of souls floating around.

[C1ay]

no, chickens and eggs look different.

So do zygotes and humans, huh? Does a morning after pilll really kill a human?

[Jay-qu]

haha I can see this going no-where... well at least its a bit of fun

 

What linda said is sort of what I was trying to latch onto earlier, when does the 'soul' inhabit the body and become a distinct person with a personality - although it wont have a personality per say because that is something that you aquire from living.

[rockytriton]

The problem is that people on both extreme sides of the issue refuse to listen to the slightest bit of reason from either side. They say they do, but it goes in one ear and out the other, they refuse to really try to understand the other side.

[niviene]

What always bothers me about topics like this are the closed minded people who don't want to open their eyes to what they are saying. Abortion is bad - why? because we are "playing god" and messing with nature's way of doing things? Well, in some ways I agree with this - sure, let's not mess with nature. I believe that nature does know what it's doing. But until it's your own life, you don't understand what's involved. Let however it's going to happen, happen - even in cases of extreme wrongs done to a female where she is forced to suffer psychologically and physically for 9 whole months as a baby grows inside her that is the result of the worst experience of her life. One person asked if rape victims are really innocent. Well, let me tell you something - when I was 13, I was raped by three men in a park. In the snow, on the ground. They nearly killed me. They also left me there to die. I was 13. I was trying to go home after a school dance. Perhaps something about the way I was walking home, minding my own business caused them to attack me, only a few miles from home. But, this is not why I am posting. I just can't stand anyone who wants to say rape victims kinda "had it coming to them." And yes, I was a virgin.

 

So hey, if you want to tell people not to "play god" with abortions, let's do it - but let's do it 100%. Let's let nature deal with it all. Cancer, AIDS, HIV, the bubonic plaque, sickle cell anemia, birth defects, you name it. Why aren't you whining about this stuff? Why is it only ok for your own reasons? Technology allows us to help people by combating things that have gone wrong "naturally". Should we allow them to die? Because, wouldn't helping them and interfering be against God? I was finally capable of getting pregnant after years of trying, and my baby was born at only 6 months' gestation. Her name was Alexis Michelle. She lived for 3 days. We tried everything to save her but finally had to let her go. She was only 1 pound 9 ounces... just barely big enough to get her hand around my finger. Did I mention that what happened to me when I was 13 messed up my ability to have children? Was trying to help Lexy live by using the same technology that could have aborted her wrong? I can't stand the arguments that are one sided. Don't you see that there more than two sides to the issue? OR do you have to actually live through both sides of it to get it? I always thought (and still do, most of the time) that nature has its own way of taking care of itself. I have an ideal that if even I get cancer, it's nature's way of telling me to die... babies that die because they are born too early is nature's way... but when it's your own child there, in that tiny plastic incubator in the NICU, you throw all your values out the window in the hopes that maybe something can save her. If I had become pregnant from one of those men in the park that day, I would have done everything I could have to get it aborted - if the clinic wouldn't have let me, I would have stuck something up there myself, no matter what the pain had been like, because it would have been like living through it every minute of every day all over again. Until you have been there, don't you ever tell me that you know, cut and dry, what should be done in that case. I give that same respect to everyone else, despite what I believe in.