What happened to Mars?

[Anchovyforestbane]

15 hours ago, Thoth101 said:

Well, touché then and I apologize if I misunderstood what you were trying to say. Well, I was actually on the other side of the argument at one time when I believed the government cared for me and I believed the media was there to tell us the truth. When I tried to prove they did, I came to find out that wasn't true at all.

I actually signed up for the US Air Force in 2001 when I actually believed what the media told me and government that it was Arabs in a cave that blew up the WTC. So when you say to give further analysis to opposing arguments, I have because I was part of those opposing arguments at one time when I was a mind controlled and asleep fool. Taught by the government American edumacation system. And yes, I spelled education wrong on purpose. So Monty, you can refrain from your spell check.😆

Your apology is accepted.

The WTC wasn't destroyed by Arabs, eh? Elaborate; given that they not only admitted to it themselves, but have had extensive investigations into the cause, I do not find this to be credible. 

[Anchovyforestbane]

Update:
In case it is worth mentioning, I've learned that there was a comet named N-C2020F3 that could be seen in the Northern Hemisphere where I live some time ago.
Might this be related? If so, how?

[A-wal]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:19 PM, montgomery said:

No, it's cleared up because you had to for some reason. Why did you try to get it past me to begin with?

Wtf are you talking about? Tried to get what past you? You were claiming it was ridiculous for Mars to have a magnetotail despite the fact the Earth has one! It doesn't mean Mars does, I'm not sure it has a strong enough magnetic field but that wasn't your objection, you were convinced that it couldn't have any type of tail. 7 on the thicko metre.

 

On 10/23/2020 at 9:19 PM, montgomery said:

Yes, the aliens in 'Close Encounters' could be based on reported sightings.  And that calls for a bit of an investigation on the question to determine if it's the other way around. So why do you insist on dying on that hill?

You repeatedly tried to claim that reports of alien sighting being similar to the aliens depicted in Close Encounters is evidence that the reports are bollocks so of course I'm going to point out that the creators of that film could easily have decided to base those depictions on what people were reporting to have seen since you seemed unable to figure out that for yourself. 8 on the thicko metre.

 

On 10/23/2020 at 9:19 PM, montgomery said:

Do you think I'm thick? I don't mind, I'll be whatever you like.

You continually try to make points that make absolutely zero sense in the context of your arguments even after they've been pointed out to you. So what would you call it?

 

On 10/23/2020 at 9:19 PM, montgomery said:

I'm somewhat worried about your personality too but I'm not going to get into any heavy insults because you're about as good as it gets on this clusterfuk.

Coming from someone who's one of the worst offenders of batshittary on this site but who sees himself as some kind of voice of rationality (lol) it's very hard to take your opinion of anyone else seriously.

 

On 10/23/2020 at 9:19 PM, montgomery said:

I'm still quite worried about your ridiculous bragging about being a martial arts pro or whatever it is you claim.

You're the one who fcuking brought it up! 10 on the thicko metre.

 

On 10/23/2020 at 9:19 PM, montgomery said:

And I can't just write-off your support for our resident crackpot Thoth. However, I understand that you talked yourself into a corner on that one.

He's every bit as bad as you are in my opinion and I've made that very clear. 9 on the thicko metre.

 

On 10/23/2020 at 9:19 PM, montgomery said:

p.s. You're afraid of taking a position on UFO's and the aliens. 

We could be alone in the universe or life could be common enough for many other planets relatively close to us to have sent out explorers so how can anyone possibly take a position other than basing it on nothing but a feeling? 10+ on the thicko meter!

 

On 10/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

Perhaps the "tail" was no property of Mars itself, as might be indicated by its change in length and orientation, but rather of some phenomenon between us and Mars.
On the other hand, perhaps the length and orientation of the 'tail" only changed from our perspective, specifically because of the direction in which the magnetotail has turned.
What are the thoughts on this?

Well I was just giving an example of how if Mars did have a tail it could have happened but I'm not sure if Mars has a magnetic field or if it's magnetotail could ever be visible if it did and even if it could be I think other people would have noticed it so it's more likely that what you saw was an artifact of your own eyes, bright objects on a dark background can often look blurred.

The magnetotail of a planet always points away from the sun because it's caused by the solar wind. That would put a potential magnetotail of Mars on the opposite side from our perspective if Mars is at its closest point to us because that would put Earth inbetween Mars and the sun.

 

On 10/24/2020 at 12:25 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

What's this now? As a moderately experienced martial artist myself, my interest has been piqued. 

What style? I've mainly trained in karate but have done kickboxing and a bit of tae kwon do. This is me:

It's not great quality, I was going to get a better setup and see if I could grow the channel, it would be a lot better with a good mic that could pick up the wooosh and snap sounds. I did videos of my favourite two martial artists as well by editing together some of their own videos, I even did the mix of the music myself for this one:

I lost the other video I'd almost finished when I lost everything on my hard drive. I was recreating it but I never got round to finishing, I'll have to do that soon. It was a compilation of GNT's best stuff:

If you want a good martial arts series to watch Warrior is excellent. Most producers don't seem to realise that for it to be any good it needs to hold up if you took all the martial arts out but these ones seem to get. The main character in it is also very likable which is unusual.

[A-wal]

On 10/24/2020 at 10:34 AM, Thoth101 said:

That is painting the kettle black in not interested in learning. Give me an example on how I am an extremist. I have lots of evidence on the things I post or I wouldn't be posting them. If I am shown proof otherwise then I will start to look at that. So I really don't know how you come to that conclusion.

You mean calling the kettle black? You only view that which supports you pre-existing views as evidence and simply label anything that doesn't as a conspiracy. You're an extremist in the sense that you're an extreme example of a conspiracy theorist who's lost all sense of perspective living in a dream world of fairytales and half truths but convinced that you're somehow 'awake'.

 

On 10/24/2020 at 10:34 AM, Thoth101 said:

And A-wal if we are talking extremist here. You were supporting BLM who is an extremist group that goes around torching small business's and beating up old white people. They even did that close to my hometown. They came in and torched the place and ripped people out of restaurants while eating. So if anyone is extremist here it is you because you support extremist groups. I would not be surprised if you support the terrorist group Antifa also.

Not this crap again! BLM is nothing more than an opposition to racism. Of course you can be against some of the things that are done in its name or it being hijacked by people who want to further their own political agendas but that's no reason to attempt to reject the whole thing unless you're of the opinion that black lives don't matter as much. This is just covert racism, you can't say what you really mean so you have to do everything you can to attack the movement because you don't like the idea of people being treated the same regardless of their skin tone, to you that's Marxism. Black lives do matter just as much. It's the lives of wastes of oxygen like you that don't.

 

On 10/24/2020 at 10:38 AM, Thoth101 said:

Apparently according to Anchovy and A-wal we are the same somehow.😄

You have opposite views but think (and I use that word very loosely) in exactly the same way. He took the blue pill and you took the red pile but you both OD'd and destroyed your brains.

 

On 10/30/2020 at 3:19 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

Your slamdunking, eh? How amusing; are you simply trying to convince yourself that you haven't been completely embarrassed with every post you've antagonized me with? Whoever else you might be trying to convince, they can quite easily find that you haven't managed to lay a single successful point on me. You're only making it worse for yourself, Monty, but perhaps you can't help it.

🙂 Yep that about sums him up in this and every other thread.

 

On 10/30/2020 at 3:19 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

Humanoid extraterrestrials do not exist, let alone with technology resembling that of humans. To think as much, scientifically speaking, is unfounded and foolish to a laughable degree. To assert as much and still consider yourself a scientist is an object of ridicule.

This simply isn't true. There are many scientists who believe that if advanced alien life does exist then it would probably be mostly humanoid, and with good reason. We were created by natural selection and the human form is successful because it works so well. It's true that the selection criteria would be slightly different on other planets but not enough in most cases for humanoids to be a bad design.

Of course it's entirely possible that there's no life anywhere else but if you want to claim that's the case then it would be a completely baseless claim.

Edited November 9, 2020 by OceanBreeze
removed uncalled for profanity

[Anchovyforestbane]

20 hours ago, A-wal said:

Well I was just giving an example of how if Mars did have a tail it could have happened but I'm not sure if Mars has a magnetic field or if it's magnetotail could ever be visible if it did and even if it could be I think other people would have noticed it so it's more likely that what you saw was an artifact of your own eyes, bright objects on a dark background can often look blurred.

The magnetotail of a planet always points away from the sun because it's caused by the solar wind. That would put a potential magnetotail of Mars on the opposite side from our perspective if Mars is at its closest point to us because that would put Earth inbetween Mars and the sun.

Are there any atmospheric phenomena you know of that might have been a factor?

 

20 hours ago, A-wal said:

What style? I've mainly trained in karate but have done kickboxing and a bit of tae kwon do.

MMA. I started with wadoryu, and since then I've been studying wrestling, wing chun, xingyi chun, historical European, and animal-style arts from all over China, and have been experimenting with their combinations for years. 

There are a few styles I am interested in but have not studied quite as much as others at the time of writing; including jiujitzu and muythai.
Others I simply don't have the opportunity to learn as much as I'd like to, as there seems to be hopelessly little information available about them; including Daixiong'quan Chun, Xiongshi Chun, and Niushi Chun. There is one place I know of that teaches those last two, but it's in Colorado which is some ways away from where I live.

 

21 hours ago, A-wal said:

Not this crap again! BLM is nothing more than an opposition to racism. 

Many significant figures within the organization known as BLM have said and done horribly racist things against white people. Not to mention the organization was founded and popularized by rumors and dishonesty. 

 

 

21 hours ago, A-wal said:

Of course you can be against some of the things that are done in its name or it being hijacked by people who want to further their own political agendas but that's no reason to attempt to reject the whole thing unless you're of the opinion that black lives don't matter as much. This is just covert racism, you can't say what you really mean so you have to do everything you can to attack the movement because you don't like the idea of people being treated the same regardless of their skin tone, to you that's Marxism. 

I have no problem stating that black lives matter. They absolutely do, they matter just as much as any other life.
However, I do have a problem with the organization known as BLM. They were founded on lies, they perpetuate lies, and they protect and defend evil individuals who have done and continue to do unspeakable things.
And for the record, the leaders of BLM have indeed described themselves as "trained Marxists".

 

21 hours ago, A-wal said:

This simply isn't true. There are many scientists who believe that if advanced alien life does exist then it would probably be mostly humanoid, and with good reason.

There are also many scientists who believe biological sex is a mental construct. 🤷‍♂️

 

21 hours ago, A-wal said:

We were created by natural selection and the human form is successful because it works so well. It's true that the selection criteria would be slightly different on other planets but not enough in most cases for humanoids to be a bad design.

Of course it's entirely possible that there's no life anywhere else but if you want to claim that's the case then it would be a completely baseless claim.

Humans aren't the only Earthling species who have been successful. Look at tardigrades, worms, sponges, coral; species that don't resemble humans in any way whatsoever, yet have survived for who knows how long independently of we who reside at the top of the food chain.
The truth is, the likelihood of life evolving at all is unthinkably slim, let alone into a being that can not only understand itself but understand understanding itself. Given the different physics and chemistries of different astral bodies in our universe, the chances of life developing anything like Earthlings let alone like humans, is far too unlikely for me to realistically view as a potential outcome. 

[A-wal]

6 hours ago, Anchovyforestbane said:

Are there any atmospheric phenomena you know of that might have been a factor?

Er yes, there's an obscure atmospheric phenomena known as 'clouds', wispy ones are hard to see at night. They can scatter light. Should really have suggested that much earlier. 🙂

 

6 hours ago, Anchovyforestbane said:

MMA. I started with wadoryu, and since then I've been studying wrestling, wing chun, xingyi chun, historical European, and animal-style arts from all over China, and have been experimenting with their combinations for years. 

There are a few styles I am interested in but have not studied quite as much as others at the time of writing; including jiujitzu and muythai.
Others I simply don't have the opportunity to learn as much as I'd like to, as there seems to be hopelessly little information available about them; including Daixiong'quan Chun, Xiongshi Chun, and Niushi Chun. There is one place I know of that teaches those last two, but it's in Colorado which is some ways away from where I live.

Ah wadoryu that's one of the karate styles I've trained in, that and shotokan, as well as isshinryu that I started with right at the beginning. I really like muay thai, distinctive, stylish, effective and older than Jesus. I've never liked the look of jiu jitsu, always much preferred aikido although I know that jiu jitsu is supposed to be much more effective.

 

6 hours ago, Anchovyforestbane said:

Many significant figures within the organization known as BLM have said and done horribly racist things against white people. Not to mention the organization was founded and popularized by rumors and dishonesty.

I have no problem stating that black lives matter. They absolutely do, they matter just as much as any other life.
However, I do have a problem with the organization known as BLM. They were founded on lies, they perpetuate lies, and they protect and defend evil individuals who have done and continue to do unspeakable things.
And for the record, the leaders of BLM have indeed described themselves as "trained Marxists".

I'm not talking about any specific organisation. BLM is a multi-national movement of people who think it goes without saying that people shouldn't be treated differently, have less opportunities or be under a greater threat of being attacked because they happen to have a darker than average skin tone. Don't let a few opportunistic dickheads taking advantage of a recent wave of social outcry make you think that BLM is anything other than that won't accept racism any more.

 

6 hours ago, Anchovyforestbane said:

There are also many scientists who believe biological sex is a mental construct. 🤷‍♂️

Everything other than biological differences is merely a product of social conditioning but those biological differences include brain structure. Men tend to be much more obsessive because our brains are designed to focus on one thing and block out everything else and women tend to be better at seeing the bigger picture. Men think deeply, women think broadly. Although that's only an on average type of generalisation, there's lots of exceptions and you can train yourself to think in certain ways to some extent.

 

6 hours ago, Anchovyforestbane said:

Humans aren't the only Earthling species who have been successful. Look at tardigrades, worms, sponges, coral; species that don't resemble humans in any way whatsoever, yet have survived for who knows how long independently of we who reside at the top of the food chain.

Successful yes but not advanced. For a species on an alien planet to become a civilisation humanoid is probably the best way to get there and therefore the form that evolution would repeatedly mould throughout the universe, if life even exists anywhere else of course. It's very possible that life is basically everywhere but intelligent life is extremely rare.

 

6 hours ago, Anchovyforestbane said:

The truth is, the likelihood of life evolving at all is unthinkably slim, let alone into a being that can not only understand itself but understand understanding itself.

You have no basis whatsoever for that claim, it's based on nothing at all.

 

6 hours ago, Anchovyforestbane said:

Given the different physics and chemistries of different astral bodies in our universe, the chances of life developing anything like Earthlings let alone like humans, is far too unlikely for me to realistically view as a potential outcome. 

Earth has a close to a 1-1 match of the order of abundance of chemical elements throughout the universe. That's a very encouraging thought for the prospect of life elsewhere, we're made of the most common elements in the universe. Mostly hydrogen, a lot of carbon and oxygen, some calcium, iron, etc. It's not hard in principle to make humans with the ingredients the universe has available everywhere.

[Anchovyforestbane]

28 minutes ago, A-wal said:

Er yes, there's an obscure atmospheric phenomena known as 'clouds', wispy ones are hard to see at night. They can scatter light. Should really have suggested that much earlier.

I'd imagine if that were the case that the image would've been partially obscured and, for lack of a better word, blurred. Why do you think it might have instead focused the light at a specific point?

 

 

30 minutes ago, A-wal said:

Ah wadoryu that's one of the karate styles I've trained in, that and shotokan, as well as isshinryu that I started with right at the beginning. I really like muay thai, distinctive, stylish, effective and older than Jesus. I've never liked the look of jiu jitsu, always much preferred aikido although I know that jiu jitsu is supposed to be much more effective.

Wadoryu is the only Japanese art I've studied, I think. 
I much prefer usefulness over stylishness. Muythai is good for this reason because it focuses on effectively strengthening and utilizing each of your knees and elbows, essentially giving you four extra limbs. 
And as ugly and sweaty as jiujitzu may seem, it is certainly more effective that aikido; especially for groundfighting, which is one of the most important things to consider in MMA.

 

 

34 minutes ago, A-wal said:

I'm not talking about any specific organisation. BLM is a multi-national movement of people who think it goes without saying that people shouldn't be treated differently, have less opportunities or be under a greater threat of being attacked because they happen to have a darker than average skin tone. 

In that context I completely agree. Unfortunately, however, it doesn't seem to be the most widely used context.

 

36 minutes ago, A-wal said:

Everything other than biological differences is merely a product of social conditioning but those biological differences include brain structure. Men tend to be much more obsessive because our brains are designed to focus on one thing and block out everything else and women tend to be better at seeing the bigger picture. Men think deeply, women think broadly. Although that's only an on average type of generalisation, there's lots of exceptions and you can train yourself to think in certain ways to some extent.

Not necessarily. A large number of the "gender roles" condemned so aggressively in today's culture are simply a byproduct in the very neurological differences you've mentioned, rather than having been imposed by society.

 

 

38 minutes ago, A-wal said:

Successful yes but not advanced. For a species on an alien planet to become a civilisation humanoid is probably the best way to get there and therefore the form that evolution would repeatedly mould throughout the universe, if life even exists anywhere else of course. It's very possible that life is basically everywhere but intelligent life is extremely rare.

 

You have no basis whatsoever for that claim, it's based on nothing at all.

If it's baseless claims we're discussing; there is no basis for the idea that advanced life exists anywhere else. I agree that life likely exists out there by scientific standards, but I don't believe it would resemble anything we're accustomed to.

 

 

40 minutes ago, A-wal said:

Earth has a close to a 1-1 match of the order of abundance of chemical elements throughout the universe. That's a very encouraging thought for the prospect of life elsewhere, we're made of the most common elements in the universe. Mostly hydrogen, a lot of carbon and oxygen, some calcium, iron, etc. It's not hard in principle to make humans with the ingredients the universe has available everywhere.

It isn't only the proportions of chemical elements we need to worry about. The structure of the star system is also a crucial factor, as well as the interstellar environment in which said star systems reside. 
You could say that "the stars aligned" in light of the prerequisites for our existence. All jokes aside, even if there are other circumstances in which intelligent life could form, the chances of them resembling Earthlings after all the natural selection Earth has put us through are indubitably slim-to-none. Heck, even if the circumstances were virtually the same, there's no guarantee that the specific mutations which transpired millions of years ago leading to our existence would transpire then. No matter how you slice it, even if you don't believe there's enough evidence to say it's unlikely; the existence of humanoid extraterrestrials is most certainly not on the probable end.

[A-wal]

On 11/10/2020 at 2:23 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

I'd imagine if that were the case that the image would've been partially obscured and, for lack of a better word, blurred. Why do you think it might have instead focused the light at a specific point?

No idea.

 

On 11/10/2020 at 2:23 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

Wadoryu is the only Japanese art I've studied, I think.

You should try Ameri-do-te, the greatest martial art in existence created by the greatest martial artist in existence, Master Ken.

And this could come in very handy for practical self defense if aliens are a thing:

 

On 11/10/2020 at 2:23 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

I much prefer usefulness over stylishness.

I'm the exact opposite, I'm in it for the art more than the martial, although there's obviously a strong overlap.

 

On 11/10/2020 at 2:23 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

And as ugly and sweaty as jiujitzu may seem, it is certainly more effective that aikido; especially for groundfighting, which is one of the most important things to consider in MMA.

I hate ground fighting, and grappling in general. I'm 100% a striker and need to stay on my feet.

 

On 11/10/2020 at 2:23 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

In that context I completely agree. Unfortunately, however, it doesn't seem to be the most widely used context.

That's because racist people need something they can attack while still laughably claiming that they're not actually racist so they're forced to focus all the hatred on one tiny group while ignoring the much wider movement which is their real target.

 

On 11/10/2020 at 2:23 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

Not necessarily. A large number of the "gender roles" condemned so aggressively in today's culture are simply a byproduct in the very neurological differences you've mentioned, rather than having been imposed by society.

No they're basically just a bs construction of old fashioned social conditioning. If they were anything deeper the trend wouldn't be changing at all because it wouldn't be able to.

 

On 11/10/2020 at 2:23 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

If it's baseless claims we're discussing; there is no basis for the idea that advanced life exists anywhere else. I agree that life likely exists out there by scientific standards, but I don't believe it would resemble anything we're accustomed to.

There's no basis that there's any life exists anywhere else, advanced or otherwise. Even if the universe is teeming with life there's no basis to claim that advanced life exists anywhere but here. But if advanced life does exist on other planets it's more than likely to be humanoid.

 

On 11/10/2020 at 2:23 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

It isn't only the proportions of chemical elements we need to worry about. The structure of the star system is also a crucial factor, as well as the interstellar environment in which said star systems reside. 
You could say that "the stars aligned" in light of the prerequisites for our existence. All jokes aside, even if there are other circumstances in which intelligent life could form, the chances of them resembling Earthlings after all the natural selection Earth has put us through are indubitably slim-to-none. Heck, even if the circumstances were virtually the same, there's no guarantee that the specific mutations which transpired millions of years ago leading to our existence would transpire then. No matter how you slice it, even if you don't believe there's enough evidence to say it's unlikely; the existence of humanoid extraterrestrials is most certainly not on the probable end.

Natural selection is survival of the fittest and the fittest on any remotely Earth-like planet will be the same traits that thrived here so random mutations would eventually lead to humanoid traits being the ones that are naturally selected because those are the ones that work best for a species to become truly intelligent.

Other animals a far more intelligent than most others, dolphins, elephants, parrots, corvids, octopuses, but those will never create civilisations because you need to be humanoid for that, it's the only design that works on a planet like Earth.

[Anchovyforestbane]

1 hour ago, A-wal said:

I hate ground fighting, and grappling in general. I'm 100% a striker and need to stay on my feet.

Being a groundfighter and being a striker aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. For example, Langshi Chun and Xiyishi Chun are both ground positions that focus on striking and kicking. 

 

1 hour ago, A-wal said:

No they're basically just a bs construction of old fashioned social conditioning. If they were anything deeper the trend wouldn't be changing at all because it wouldn't be able to.

The science disagrees. Generally speaking, men and women are neurologically wired to behave differently. Even before homosapiens had any advanced sociology, we had already developed a sort of hunter-gatherer system where the females took care of the passive/sedentary responsibilities such as harvesting plants and nursing children, and males took care of the active/laborious responsibilities such as hunting, fighting, and crafting; such differences in behavior are indeed reflected in many of what we call "gender roles", but it isn't because we've forcefully preserved them. In any natural setting, these differences will fall into place by themselves; that is simply how humans function.

 

1 hour ago, A-wal said:

There's no basis that there's any life exists anywhere else, advanced or otherwise. Even if the universe is teeming with life there's no basis to claim that advanced life exists anywhere but here.

That is correct, but for the reasons I've described already: if there was, its chances of evolving even remotely similar to how we have is unthinkably slim.

 

1 hour ago, A-wal said:

Natural selection is survival of the fittest and the fittest on any remotely Earth-like planet will be the same traits that thrived here so random mutations would eventually lead to humanoid traits being the ones that are naturally selected because those are the ones that work best for a species to become truly intelligent.

There's one thing you're forgetting; just because a given mutation might be naturally selected, doesn't mean it's bound to happen. Doubtless, there are millions upon millions of species that could've been naturally selected and thrived if they mutated in a certain way, but they simply did not. The chances of the prerequisite mutation strings for humanity transpiring in an environment separate from our own, is slim-to-none. 

 

1 hour ago, A-wal said:

Other animals a far more intelligent than most others, dolphins, elephants, parrots, corvids, octopuses, but those will never create civilisations because you need to be humanoid for that, it's the only design that works on a planet like Earth.

Lions, elephants, and whales all have their own forms of civilization, although admittedly less sophisticated than ours to do a lack of opposable thumbs.
In fact, intelligence isn't even necessary for civilization, as demonstrated by ants, bees, and many species of fish. 
Human civilization requires humanoid organisms. And even then, to assume that we humans and our civilizations are the most efficient and advanced possible outcome of life organic or otherwise, is simply arrogance. If there is a more efficient and advanced lifestyle out there than our own, then it likely isn't something we could visualize on our own, and there isn't even a guarantee that we would recognize it if we saw it. 

[A-wal]

On 11/12/2020 at 2:36 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

Being a groundfighter and being a striker aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Of course, but in many cases they are, such as mine. I'm into to for maximum fulfillment rather than maximum efficiency but even if I wasn't I'm a big believer in focusing on your strengths more than your weaknesses, something I think formal education in general gets very wrong.

 

On 11/12/2020 at 2:36 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

The science disagrees. Generally speaking, men and women are neurologically wired to behave differently. Even before homosapiens had any advanced sociology, we had already developed a sort of hunter-gatherer system where the females took care of the passive/sedentary responsibilities such as harvesting plants and nursing children, and males took care of the active/laborious responsibilities such as hunting, fighting, and crafting; such differences in behavior are indeed reflected in many of what we call "gender roles", but it isn't because we've forcefully preserved them. In any natural setting, these differences will fall into place by themselves; that is simply how humans function.

No actually the science agrees. As you said yourself "There are also many scientists who believe biological sex is a mental construct. "Women used to hunt and fight before advanced sociology developed and have done all throughout history, although to a lesser degree than men. Even if there is a genuine neurological bias (I highly doubt there is) it is only a general bias rather than a rule. People are conscious beings with their own will and drives and although group behaviour can be easy to predict and to steer as soon as you try to pigeon hole individuals based on any generalisation they will always prove you wrong.

 

On 11/12/2020 at 2:36 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

That is correct, but for the reasons I've described already: if there was, its chances of evolving even remotely similar to how we have is unthinkably slim.

And as I've already explained, for it to become a technologically advanced civilisation it would probably have to be similar to us. Forward facing eyes, two ears at the sides of their heads, opposable thumbs, two arms, two legs and a torso. In other words humanoid.

 

On 11/12/2020 at 2:36 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

There's one thing you're forgetting; just because a given mutation might be naturally selected, doesn't mean it's bound to happen. Doubtless, there are millions upon millions of species that could've been naturally selected and thrived if they mutated in a certain way, but they simply did not. The chances of the prerequisite mutation strings for humanity transpiring in an environment separate from our own, is slim-to-none.

This might limit the potential number of advanced civilisations compared to the number of life sustaining planets because other less intelligent designs are just as successful in their own ways but it doesn't change the prerequisites required for an advanced civilisation.

 

On 11/12/2020 at 2:36 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

Lions, elephants, and whales all have their own forms of civilization, although admittedly less sophisticated than ours to do a lack of opposable thumbs.
In fact, intelligence isn't even necessary for civilization, as demonstrated by ants, bees, and many species of fish. 
Human civilization requires humanoid organisms. And even then, to assume that we humans and our civilizations are the most efficient and advanced possible outcome of life organic or otherwise, is simply arrogance. If there is a more efficient and advanced lifestyle out there than our own, then it likely isn't something we could visualize on our own, and there isn't even a guarantee that we would recognize it if we saw it. 

The essential trait a species needs to develop technology is tool use, that's all a technologically advanced civilisation really is. Marine animals are naturally limited and the only other animals that do it here other than primates are a few birds but to really be good at it you need hands. When you go all through all the essentials that are needed then the only way to really fill in the rest is to create a humanoid.

[Anchovyforestbane]

5 hours ago, A-wal said:

Of course, but in many cases they are, such as mine. I'm into to for maximum fulfillment rather than maximum efficiency

For me they're one and the same; being able to fight efficiently in as many ways as my skillset allows is what makes martial arts fulfilling. 

 

5 hours ago, A-wal said:

No actually the science agrees. As you said yourself "There are also many scientists who believe biological sex is a mental construct. "Women used to hunt and fight before advanced sociology developed and have done all throughout history, although to a lesser degree than men.

Not before sociology, no. Once our brains were advanced enough and by extent diverse enough, absolutely; but in our primitive ages, when our rationalities were operated instinctively rather than deliberatively, it was almost invariably our instinct which drove our collective decisions. And these instincts have not entirely dissolved, not in the least; while there is much more intellectual plasticity among the current population, the neurological patterns can still be found. 

 

5 hours ago, A-wal said:

Even if there is a genuine neurological bias (I highly doubt there is) it is only a general bias rather than a rule. People are conscious beings with their own will and drives and although group behaviour can be easy to predict and to steer as soon as you try to pigeon hole individuals based on any generalisation they will always prove you wrong.

This I do not deny; to assert that all people work the same according to gender would be nonsensical. However, there is a biological reason most men share many traits with most other men, and likewise for women; similarly as women have different anatomy to men, they also have different neurology. 

 

5 hours ago, A-wal said:

And as I've already explained, for it to become a technologically advanced civilisation it would probably have to be similar to us. Forward facing eyes, two ears at the sides of their heads, opposable thumbs, two arms, two legs and a torso. In other words humanoid.

For it to become advanced in human technology, it would have to be similar to us. However, not only are there no grounds on which to assert the likeliness of technology anywhere else in the first place, but the unlikeliness of life elsewhere developing to that point remains.

 

5 hours ago, A-wal said:

The essential trait a species needs to develop technology is tool use, that's all a technologically advanced civilisation really is. Marine animals are naturally limited and the only other animals that do it here other than primates are a few birds but to really be good at it you need hands. When you go all through all the essentials that are needed then the only way to really fill in the rest is to create a humanoid.

Elephants, otters, sandcats, and to an extent narwhals are all examples of non-primate organisms who've displayed tool use. But you are correct that primates are optimal for technological advancement... in human technology, which is unlikely to exist elsewhere. 

[A-wal]

On 11/14/2020 at 12:43 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

For me they're one and the same; being able to fight efficiently in as many ways as my skillset allows is what makes martial arts fulfilling.

The only times I've been in real situations was in my twenties when I was out clubbing and I was always drunk anyway, although it did come in handy a couple of times. I do love a good sparring session though but that's nothing like the same thing.

 

On 11/14/2020 at 12:43 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

Not before sociology, no. Once our brains were advanced enough and by extent diverse enough, absolutely; but in our primitive ages, when our rationalities were operated instinctively rather than deliberatively, it was almost invariably our instinct which drove our collective decisions. And these instincts have not entirely dissolved, not in the least; while there is much more intellectual plasticity among the current population, the neurological patterns can still be found.

...

This I do not deny; to assert that all people work the same according to gender would be nonsensical. However, there is a biological reason most men share many traits with most other men, and likewise for women; similarly as women have different anatomy to men, they also have different neurology.

The only thing in terms of behaviour that men can do and women are genetically incapable of is walking past a shoe shop without turning their head. 🙂

 

On 11/14/2020 at 12:43 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

For it to become advanced in human technology, it would have to be similar to us. However, not only are there no grounds on which to assert the likeliness of technology anywhere else in the first place, but the unlikeliness of life elsewhere developing to that point remains.

You still have no basis for claiming that life is unlikely to develop to the point where it can create technology. True we've never been able to recreate life and it took a while for life to develop technology here but there's a LOT of planets out there.

 

On 11/14/2020 at 12:43 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

Elephants, otters, sandcats, and to an extent narwhals are all examples of non-primate organisms who've displayed tool use. But you are correct that primates are optimal for technological advancement... in human technology, which is unlikely to exist elsewhere. 

Yea those animals can use tools, I think what I read/heard might have been that those birds are the only other animals who create tools.

It's not just that primates are the optimal design to create human technology, it's that primates are the optimal design to create any kind of advanced technology because we have all the things you need to do it and any other possible design simply doesn't. That would hold true on alien worlds as well.

[Anchovyforestbane]

8 hours ago, A-wal said:

The only thing in terms of behaviour that men can do and women are genetically incapable of is walking past a shoe shop without turning  their head. 🙂

Depends of the kind of shoes. 🤔

 

8 hours ago, A-wal said:

You still have no basis for claiming that life is unlikely to develop to the point where it can create technology. True we've never been able to recreate life and it took a while for life to develop technology here but there's a LOT of planets out there.

Even if the burden of proof wasn't on you (which it kinda is), there actually is a basis. The prerequisites for human life provide a variety of possibilities so unthinkably narrow, that it is perfectly reasonable to believe it shouldn't happen elsewhere. 

 

 

8 hours ago, A-wal said:

It's not just that primates are the optimal design to create human technology, it's that primates are the optimal design to create any kind of advanced technology because we have all the things you need to do it and any other possible design simply doesn't. That would hold true on alien worlds as well.

You are assuming that you know the optimal limits of advanced technology, and that they must necessarily be human-like. If there is a technology more advanced than ours, it could very well be so different that we wouldn't know what we were looking at.

[A-wal]

On 11/19/2020 at 3:19 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

Even if the burden of proof wasn't on you (which it kinda is), there actually is a basis. The prerequisites for human life provide a variety of possibilities so unthinkably narrow, that it is perfectly reasonable to believe it shouldn't happen elsewhere.

I'm not trying to claim that life is bound to be out there or even that it's likely, such a claim is as baseless as trying to claim that it's unlikely. There are so many possible location for life in the universe that the odds of life developing on each one would have to be so astronomically low for not a single one of them to have produced life other than this one, and even if the odds were low enough to make that claim it could still only apply to the observable universe which may be infinitesimal compared to the whole thing.

All we could do is find out that life requires such an unlikely set of circumstances that it's very unlikely for there to be other life in this galaxy. We could possibly go further and say unlikely in the same local group or in the same cluster or same super cluster if it's even less likely to happen or even to the whole of the observable universe but as yet we don't even know if it's unlikely enough for all galaxies to be teeming with life.

 

On 11/19/2020 at 3:19 AM, Anchovyforestbane said:

You are assuming that you know the optimal limits of advanced technology, and that they must necessarily be human-like. If there is a technology more advanced than ours, it could very well be so different that we wouldn't know what we were looking at.

Yes it could be so advanced that it's unrecognisable as technology but it would have to have been developed by a species with opposable thumbs, forward facing eyes, eyes at the sides of their heads, a torso and almost certainly two arms and two legs for the simple reason that there is no plausible more efficient design when it comes to creating technology, at least none that I can think of or have ever come across in fiction.

[Anchovyforestbane]

4 hours ago, A-wal said:

I'm not trying to claim that life is bound to be out there or even that it's likely, such a claim is as baseless as trying to claim that it's unlikely. There are so many possible location for life in the universe that the odds of life developing on each one would have to be so astronomically low for not a single one of them to have produced life other than this one, and even if the odds were low enough to make that claim it could still only apply to the observable universe which may be infinitesimal compared to the whole thing.

And I'm not saying extraterrestrial life is impossible; in fact I find it quite feasible. What I don't find feasible, is life resembling earthling vertebrates like humans. 

 

 

4 hours ago, A-wal said:

Yes it could be so advanced that it's unrecognisable as technology but it would have to have been developed by a species with opposable thumbs, forward facing eyes, eyes at the sides of their heads, a torso and almost certainly two arms and two legs for the simple reason that there is no plausible more efficient design when it comes to creating technology, at least none that I can think of or have ever come across in fiction.

What if they had three arms? Or three legs? What if they didn't have limbs at all, but fine tendrils? What if their sensory organs were all that of a homosapien's in one? None of these things would impair technological developments, and in some cases it could even improve it. There is absolutely no reason to think one must be humanoid to make advances in technology.