GOD

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

Christianity might do some harm, but only when it combines w/ something else (such as some mental problems, personal experience and culture, and these ARE NOT the problems of religions).

 

Christianity is NOT the ONLY reason. it doesnt really cause a big harm in the whole world except for some countries.

 

I think the point was that Christianity is not to blame. Religion is to blame - or rather, the problems of religions, as you call it. Have you ever heard of people who are brainwashed by their sects and give away all their belongings, only to be frozen out because of something they have done (like - scienthology)?

 

Blind faith is the issue here. Christians do not kill simply because they are Christians, but because they are children of a religion in which murder is (and has always been) an accepted method of settling disputes. Members of Islam are known to do the same...

 

That does not mean that every Christian or Moslem will kill. Freethinker's statistics show that when someone kills, they are very likely to be people of faith (to various degrees, as someone pointed out).

 

America not only has the highest church attendance in the world - it also has the highest state execution rate in the world.

 

In God We Trust.

 

but not only is christianity "harmful", it is also benefitial. it prevents lots of people from suiciding. it helps lots of people to solve their problems. also helped poors to have a better life and give them a social position. some murderers caused by christianity are just the "side effects".

 

like money, people get crazy about it. but should we get rip of it?? we cant, it is a necessary need for a country, although it has some "side effect".

 

Christianity is not beneficial. Good people and well functioning societies are beneficial. People who find relief in any faith, and who find that they lead better lives because of it, are welcome to do so. But the minute someone comes in and argues that anyone who has a different faith than MINE, you have a problem. Then the faithful lambs find themselves united against a strong, dark enemy, and you have a religious war going on.

 

That is what is going on in Iraq - right now.

 

If "a few murders" is a side effect, then why is the anti-abortion movement so important to Christians? Why do anti-abortionists ("pro-lifers") kill?

 

Because religion is not about god, but about standing united against a different cause than your own. It is an umbrella under which you can put your faith. There are lots of umbrellas to pick from, and I promise you - no matter which one you choose, it will have it's own enemies and it's own dark sides.

 

Tormod

[Tormod]

Someone asked previously: "have you ever heard of a monk who kills"?

 

Ever heard of the inquisition? What where they, if not men of the church?

 

And one a slightly different note: Why do we hear so much about religious leaders molesting children?

 

The misuse of power in the name of religion is not a myth. Sadly, it is most likely so widespread most people ignore it (or deny it).

 

Tormod

[Tim_Lou]

"That is what is going on in Iraq - right now"

 

i have to disagree that.

this is not because of religious problems! its about we are scare of terrorism and bush had to do something about it! and terrorism is the hatred that the US built up in those Arabian countries.

 

believing is NOT a problem. people go to war due to religious facts are NOT due to religions! these are their personality! not because of religions! china, have religions, but its never been a problem! because people can tolerate other religions, Christianity has never been a problem!!!

 

religions are NOT the only facts! the bigger problem is the nature of americans. Americans are warlike people, and americans have money and wealth to support that (dont use religions as an excuse!). never had i heard of any Christians in my born city (macau) are bad as murderers! and no christian in china had really stirred up anything!

[Tim_Lou]

anyway, thx tormod. : )

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

"That is what is going on in Iraq - right now"

 

i have to disagree that.

 

this is not because of religious problems! its about we are scare of terrorism and bush had to do something about it! and terrorism is the hatred that the US built up in those Arabian countries.

 

If you think Iraq has anything to do with Terrorism, you have not been paying attention. Iraq has been a diversion from our efforts to control terrorism. Saddam had been a CIA "asset" since 1959!

 

http://www.bushflash.com/thanks.html

 

But back to WHY/ Terrorism and ged beliefs.

 

If you remove religion frokm the equation, there really is no other reason for the current efforts of terrorists in any corner of the world. One of the prlbems with the "War on Terrorism", is that it is not one country fighting another. The opponents are not identified by their country of original. They are identified by their idiology. It is Islamic Terrorists against the Christian world. Or Christian terrorism against other forms of Christianity. Or even one Islamic sect against another.

 

Bottom line is you can not find a single case of non-believers terrorist activities ANYWHERE.

 

Now, explain why, if it is NOT based on religion, there is not a single case of a non-religious being the cause behind terrorist Yes there are many examples of terrorists attack a secular group/ population... But NEVER the other way around.

 

So struggle with it all you have to Tim. But the FACT is that Terrorism has as it's root motivation, some religious beleif driving the motivation. And when I say "struggle", that includes here in the discussions. Let's see you struggle to provide ANY terrorist activitiy that does not have a religious beleiver motivation involved. ANY.

 

believing is NOT a problem. people go to war due to religious facts are NOT due to religions!

 

To try and invent a differentiation between a religion and the CLAIMED facts behind it is absurd.

 

these are their personality! not because of religions! china, have religions, but its never been a problem! because people can tolerate other religions, Christianity has never been a problem!!!

 

Christianity and it's missionary based attacks against China have been a major problem.

 

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/exclusive/fox_07_00.htm

 

" The Missionary Legacy

 

The preceding examples of how the missionaries misjudged, and underestimated the Chinese only touch the surface. Sad for them and bad for the Chinese that this "salvation stampede" lasted so long! (1850-1950)-100 years of intense proselytizing by aliens unable and unwilling to consider the differences in East-West cultures."

 

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/aah/brown_8_3.htm

 

"China has no trouble with three religions, and, in fact, the Roman Catholic Church even admitted that the serenity in the religions of the Chinese sometimes converted missionaries of the Catholic Church. For this reason, the terms of Catholic missionaries in China are short, and they are forced to incorporate Oriental views into their own teachings. "

 

religions are NOT the only facts! the bigger problem is the nature of americans. Americans are warlike people,

 

Americans are MAINLY CHRISTIANS and YES Christians have ALWAYS been war like/physically agressive people. War, torture, murder, oppression have been tools of Christianty since it gained political power. some 1600 years ago.

 

You struggle so hard to try and resolve/ deny the REALITY of Christianity. You are so blinded by being inside. This is one of the big problems with religion. One ahs to stop thinking in order to accept it.

[Tim_Lou]

religions are not the problems. the problems are people took words into action and casused war! if i tell you to kill someone (or your friends), would you go kill him? no, there has to be some personal reason behind it.

 

and people use religions as an excuse, as a coverage. they blamed on religions and said that religions taught them to do so!

 

yeah, people fought for religions, but didnt they fight for lands? didnt they fight for power? again, religions ARE NOT the only facts! a guy w/ a normal brain (non-mental) can judge things, they DO NOT get crazy b/c of religions. you cannot get somebody to do something for you if they dont want to, except violence. and reglions are simply a belief, it cannot force you to do things you dont want. (i still remember someone...hmmm.....my teacher taught me i guess. people can never get you to do somthing when your not willing to. my teacher was right, i shouldnt have any excuse nor blame anyone when i did something bad.)

 

we are"tools of Christianty"??? not really, you should say "Christianty as a tool".

all the historic events involved w/ religions are not due to just religions. Terrorism against the US is not only due to religions. yes, none of them are non-believers, but believing in something doesnt mean that you ONLY believe in something. why dont they go against China? why not African? why not Japan? they used religions to gather people, to gather world wide people to help them go against the US and some other countries.

 

religions are mixed w/ many other stuffs, pure religion is not harmful. yes, religions mislead people sometimes, but for those people that actually kill someone IS NOT ONLY due to religious facts.

 

as one of the chinese, i know exactly why we dont get involve with these bad stuffs.

1. we dont care much, we only do what we wanna do, we dont really care about others (religions), as soon as we think that wer right, thats it.

2. we dont wanna get involved in war and stuffs. we simply just take care of ourselves.

(religions, not a problem in my born country)

[Tim_Lou]

freethinker, time for YOU to struggle.

 

reply below may seem to be a personal attack, im sry for posting these stuffs....but, tormod....hope you understand my point.

[Tim_Lou]

ok, freethinker, im really sry about my posts b4.

 

your right, your absolutely right! Christianty is bad as hell, and Christians caused all the troubles.

i was totally wrong! im totally believed in you!

 

hmmm, since christians are this bad, ok, let me go out and KILL ALL THE CHRISTIANS, WUHAHAHAHH!!!

YOU MUST LIKE IT, DONT YOU?

 

IM HERE TO KILL ALL THE CHRISTIANS AND PREVENT THE WORLD TO GET IN TROUBLES!

ALL THE PROBLEMS CAUSED BY ME SHOULD BLAME TO FREETHINKER!

SINCE THE CHANCES ARE THAT IF HE HADN'T POST THESE POSTS, I WOULDNT HAVE TO KILL ALL THE CHRISTIANS!

 

like my idea? freethinker? huh?

[IrishEyes]

Tim, I think that's going a little far. I don't agree with Freethinker about his personal philosophy re:God or no God, and I surely don't agree that Christianity is the root of all evil (yes, that was a gross simplification, and Freethinker never actually said that!), but he does have the right to his own opinion. And he is correct in that nobody here has provided any type of proof for the existence of God. Noone has, including me. I can't prove God, Tim. Neither can you. Freethinker can't disprove God, as he has stated many times- you can't disprove the non-existence of something (and I LOVED my tooth fairy example, btw!). However, just like my example with sanctus earlier, your "Kill all the Christians and blame it on Freethinker" example just doesn't work. See, Freethinker didn't direct you to kill anybody. He actually said that if you have no personal belief in God you are less likely to accept murder as an acceptable solution to a problem (or something very close to that). So unless you are now replacing God with Freethinker... :>) Please believe that I am not intentionally misquoting you, Freethinker, I'm just paraphrasing for the sake of brevity. Tim, if you do believe in God, you should learn from every single thing that Freethinker says. You should look at his explanations (or lack of them), you should check his websites for yourself, you should actually read the books he mentions. Only then can you accept or refute what Freethinker says with any certainty. If you believe him because of the examples he gives here, without checking them for yourself, then you are trading one 'blind belief' system for another.

I do agree with what I think is your general goal of your 'kill all Christians' argument though. God doesn't direct people to murder others. Various religions throughout history HAVE directed killings, and many still do. You can't refute those facts, they are correct. To say that all Christians are killers, or even the majority of Christians are killers is incorrect. Just as killing in the name of Freethinker (or sanctus) can't be rightly blamed on either of them, neither should God be blamed for the people that kill 'in the name of God/Allah/whomever'. Does that mean it won't still happen? Oh for that to be true in my lifetime!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

yeah, people fought for religions,... religions ARE NOT the only facts!

 

Hey Tim! We've made some progress! You've gone from absolutely positive that religion has nothing to do with murder, to the above!

 

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

yeah, people fought for religions,... religions ARE NOT the only facts!

 

And I agree with you Tim.

 

Isn't nice to find common ground?

 

Now that you are willing to admit that you can be wrong, perhaps we can carry on an open honest discussion? It is impossible to have an open honest discussion unless both sides are willing to admit that they could be wrong. I always have and have proved it many times. Twice here today in fact.

 

Now you show that you too can make mistakes and are willing to admit it when it happens.

 

Great job!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

Terrorism against the US is not only... they used religions to gather people, to gather world wide people to help them go against the US and some other countries.

 

WOW! I guess I had not read far enough! You actually admit that the terrorist use religion as a way to gather people.

 

Yes, promoting a religious mindset has been a very succesful way of recruiting terrorists. That is why the Islamic schools in the Middle East are such a strong recuiting grounds for the fanatics. Religious schools have always been considered a requirement to take over a population. A religious mind opens one to subservience and easy manipulation by authority. In fact we ahve many cases of that approach, such as this one:

 

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people." [Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933]

 

In the US there is a strong effort by religious grooups to dissolve the Public School system. One of their attacks is called the Voucher program. Defunding Public Schools one child at a time and giving those funds to religious schools. Yet they refuse to allow testing of the voucher children to see if they actually get a better education. But if they are ultimately succesful, if they shut those horrible Secular Religion based Public Schools...

 

"In 1933, *Sammelschulen* (i.e. elementary schools without religious instruction in their curriculum) were dissolved and enrolment of their children in religious instruction courses was made mandatory upon all parents." -- Grunberger, Richard "The 12-Year Reich" (NY Holt, Rinehart and Winston: 1971)

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

ok, freethinker, im really sry about my posts b4.

 

 

 

your right, your absolutely right! Christianty is bad as hell, and Christians caused all the troubles.

 

i was totally wrong! im totally believed in you!

 

 

 

hmmm, since christians are this bad, ok, let me go out and KILL ALL THE CHRISTIANS, WUHAHAHAHH!!!

 

YOU MUST LIKE IT, DONT YOU?

 

 

 

IM HERE TO KILL ALL THE CHRISTIANS AND PREVENT THE WORLD TO GET IN TROUBLES!

 

ALL THE PROBLEMS CAUSED BY ME SHOULD BLAME TO FREETHINKER!

 

SINCE THE CHANCES ARE THAT IF HE HADN'T POST THESE POSTS, I WOULDNT HAVE TO KILL ALL THE CHRISTIANS!

 

 

 

like my idea? freethinker? huh?

 

Sounds like you traded one religion for another. Same stuff, different day...

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Tim, I think that's going a little far.

 

Tim was merely exposing his mindset. The physically agressive approach is exactly what I have been discussing. Tim is a good example of it. I feel (reasonably?) sure that Tim has not murdered anyone. But his highly agressive suggestion of the idea is a direct indication of the point I was making.

 

To him, it is NOT going to far to imagine it. To suggest it. Where perhaps you or I just didn't have those thoughts go thru our minds.

 

I do agree with what I think is your general goal of your 'kill all Christians' argument though.

 

Ops, I spoke too early!

 

OK, let's make that, at least I didn't have those thoughts. :-)

 

God doesn't direct people to murder others.

 

Correct. as we have no reason to even begin to accept that a god exists, due to the acknowledged complete lack of reason to accept one,(subject to change should ANYONE provice ANY valid proof) we can only operate under the premiss that there is no god. Therefore a non-existent entity can not "direct" anything to do anything.

 

However, tenets from those philosophies that have a god myth and claim a revealed source of perfect knowledge from that god, can be evaluated. All we ahve to do is review the claimed revealed texts to see what tenets they do promote.

 

"The LORD is a man of war ...." Exodus 15:3

 

"And I will dash them one against each other, the fathers and the sons, says the Lord. I will not pity or spare or have compassion, that I should not destroy them." Jeremiah 13:14

 

A curse on him who is lax in doing the LORD's work! A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed! Jeremiah 48:10

 

Deuteronomy 13 6-10 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

 

"But for these very enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence" Luke 19:27

 

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, and wife and children, and and brothers and sisters, yes even his own life, he cannot be my disciple" Luke 14:26

 

"Do not think that I have come to send peace upon the earth; I have come to bring the sword, not peace"...

 

Well it is perfectly obvious that the Christian revelation text DOES promote hatred and murder. And Tim is a faithful follower.

 

So I agree that "god" does not (can not) "direct people to murder others", but as a philosphy, it DOES "direct people to murder others"

 

It's own text proves it.

[Tim_Lou]

actually, tormod made a very good point:

"Blind faith is the issue here." totally agreed w/ this. blind faith does not caused only by religions, like many people, they do not believe in something totally. freethinker, in your view of point blind faith=religions, while its not the same for me.

 

another good point he made:

"Christianity is not beneficial. Good people and well functioning societies are beneficial."

nor is it harmful, bad people and curropted societies are harmful.

 

freethinker, i think you and me both go a little too far here....religion (specially for christianity) is not something to blame and it does do some misleading i understand. but the main issue is NOT the religions, hmm, i should say "christianity".

 

also, the post above, just to show that its such a bad thing to totally blame on something.

[SlinkFree]

I'd like to add a concept that is not related to terrorism, to the state of world affairs, nor any of the rhetoric that has been discussed in the last half of this forum.

 

I'd like to offer a justification the G-d truly exists, not by letting you know what one religion or the other says, but by a simple practical experiment that every human being can do.

 

Just for a second, close your eyes, and try to imaging NOTHING...

 

can you do it?

 

The simple answer is no. It is inconcievable for a human being to understand the concept of nothing, since there is always something. You close your eyes, and you see the black space caused by the lack the shut-off of light by your eye-lids... Well, that is something!

 

In the same respect, it is impossible for human beings to understand the concept of 'Infinity', since we are finate beings, we have a beginning and an end, just like the rest of out physical universe. To understand what is beyond our linear existence is the search for truth... a search that has in one form or another, has taken over our existences. In my opinion, every aspect of humanity, can be attributed to this search for truth, for divine presence in each of our lives... music, art, culture, drugs, business, religion, are to name but a few of these aspects. Once you accept these core to a human being, you can see G-d everywhere...

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tim_Lou

actually, tormod made a very good point:

 

"Blind faith is the issue here." totally agreed w/ this. blind faith does not caused only by religions, like many people, they do not believe in something totally. freethinker, in your view of point blind faith=religions, while its not the same for me.

 

Actually Tim, you have it backwards, RELIGION= blind faith.

 

This has been proven on this site every time.

 

There has not been a single person here to provide the first bit of valid proof for their god claims. In fact virtually every religious adherent has admitted that they can not prove their god myth.

 

That is EXACTLY what BLIND FAITH is.

 

Religion REQUIRES blind faith.

 

That is one of the many problems with religious beliefs. It sets up a mindset that requires acceptance of things that lack ANY valid support. Thus opening the door to any other nonsensical random nueron firings. Voices in the head. Wacky cults. Faith healing. ESP. The thought process is all the same.

 

another good point he made:

 

"Christianity is not beneficial. Good people and well functioning societies are beneficial."

 

I'm glad we agree on this Tim. There is no doubt but that "Christianity is not beneficial"

 

freethinker, i think you and me both go a little too far here....religion (specially for christianity) is not something to blame and it does do some misleading i understand. but the main issue is NOT the religions, hmm, i should say "christianity".

 

You keep missing (intentionally?) the point Tim. You keep pretending that the issue is religion itself. As in "religion made me commit murder". That is not what I PROVED with statistics. What I PROVED is that a religious MINDSET ALLOWS someone to commit murder. It does not act as a safety check value. In fact, if you look critically at certain specific religious systems, sucha s Christianity, their refernce sources, such as the bible, actually PROMOTE murder.

 

Thus, while someone might not be commiting murder for a spefically religious reason, their religion is not acting to stop them from commiting murder and may actually be enticing them as an ADDITIONAL motivation.

 

This has been PROVEN.

 

So you can disagree all you like Tim. But unless you can supply PROOF to the contrary, it remains TRUE!

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: SlinkFree

I'd like to add a concept that is not related to terrorism, to the state of world affairs, nor any of the rhetoric that has been discussed in the last half of this forum.

 

I'd like to offer a justification the G-d truly exists,

 

G-d? what is a G-d?

 

your "o" key obviously works elsewhere. What type of irrational fear requires you to use the "-" instead of the "o"? The only time I have run into this antiquated superstition in the past is conservative Jews. An irrational fear of even accidently using the word god. This is why the Torah does not have vowels in it. They might accidently have the word god in there somewhere otherwise. Talk about obsessive, irrational thought process!

 

the alphabet is made up of symbolic representation of sounds. The key word here is "symbolic". By "symbolic", we mean that a particular symbol is assigned a specific value. e.g. "o" has a specifically assigned and agreed set of sounds. Now, let's say that someone's keyboard in fact does develop a bad "o" key, but they need to type something before they can fix it. They could choose ANY OTHER key to replace the "o" key. Say they chose the "-" key. Then anytime they needed to type a symbol which represented the vowel "o", they would hit the "-" key.

 

Now this would NOT mean that g-d is ANY DIFFERENT from typing god. Either way the WORD is communicated the same. No one is fooled. You have not been successful in NOT typing the word god by replacing the "o" with a "-". You have merely used a now accepted symbolic representation of "-" to mean "o".

 

All you have done is to show that you are forced by fear and ritual into performing irrational processes.