GOD

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tormod

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

If there is a God (and there IS, my friends),

 

Welcome, IrishEyes.

 

This is a science and technology website. In science, we tend to bring up a hypotheses, and then try to prove it or falsify it.

 

Saying "if" followed by a resolute "and there IS" violates every rule in my philosophy book.

 

I will let this thread continue even though it is way off topic now, since it is turning into a flame war where one side (basically Freethinker and myself) continually ask people for proof, while the rest of you run scared when Freethinker opens his foul bag of anticreationism arguments.

 

"foul"? Awe Tormod, "foul"? FULL perhaps, ... :-)

 

I find it interesting, too, that noone responds to my posts (which have none of Freethinker's strong language), but instead keep hunting for Freethinker and try to show how wrong he must be. That tells me this is not about whether God exists at all (which was the point of this thread), but that this kind of discussions do not belong at Hypography.

 

I disagree to an extent. This is about whether god exists or not and ahs taken the turn of those claimed he/she/it does, but for once in their lives, running into someone that can force them to face the fact that they can not show even the first valid support for their claims. They don;t reply/ attack you Tormod because you had not forced them into a corner. You would take the typical open minded approach of trying to lead them into nonest discourse while instead letting them lead you around by their changing the subject rather than stay on topic and be exposed for not giving proofs. I specifically mentioned this to you previously. I ahve learned that beleivers are used to gettihng away with not answering by the obfuscation trick of hanging the subject constantly. I have learned to force them to stay on topic and make them face that they do not HAVE any substance. Oh the cognitive dissonence I cause! :-)

 

Face it, people, in Freethinker you have met a die-hard skeptic who knows how to argue creationists. As you must have realized by now, he will not be easily subdued. He asks for facts, but you offer him none.

 

If anyone else has nothing to contribute to this discussion but variations on "but he DOES exist" I suggest they find another forum where creationism is not discussed but simply accepted in good faith.

 

Tormod

 

I was about to respond to Irisheyes. But read your post first.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: OpenMindFive

U have meet more than a die hard skeptic in this forum...u also have meet a die hard believer! I would die for this cause of god anyday...

 

Which is exactly the feelings expressed by the Al Quida pilots before they smashed into the World Trade Towers! This is one of the MANY reasons religion is so harmful to society.

 

Good people will always do good things

Bad people will always do bad things

But it take religion to make good people do bad things

 

I regret to inform u all that I have no tangable proof for u, I can tell u stories and everything...

 

Everyone has to decide what their life is worth. Everyone has to decide what they are going to base their life's POV on. They decide how much credibility they need before they spend an entire lifetime following a particular philosophy.

 

You have admitted that you have no tangeble ("capable of being perceived ....substantially real ... capable of being precisely identified or realized by the mind... WWWebster) proof to support the philosophy you are willing to use to provide value to your life.

 

i.e you are establishing that your life is worth NOTHING!

 

I hold a significantly higher value to my life.

 

but where is the proof that he doesn't exsist?

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

As hard as I try to not accept what seems to be the reality of it. It seems beleivers are just plain INCAPABLE of basic reasoning. No matter how hard one tries to educate them, they are incapable of grasping even the simplest of philosophical tenets.

 

But then I guess if they could, they would not be believers!

 

There is nothing that can be said or done to change my mind...yah i admit that makes me sound narrow minded, but i understand where all of you are coiming from...

 

SOUND? SOUND?

 

You show that there is no reason t even TRY to have an intellectually honest discussion with you. You don't want to explore, uncover, learn....

 

Which only adds support to how you place no value on your life, or mind. What a shame! You ARE a True Believer!

 

I only hope you don't learn to fly planes!

 

Freethinker, u are never firm footed and I like that, I wish you were on my side though...

 

You show exactly WHY I could never be on your side. Just as you show why a Christian could never allow themselves to not be "firm footed".

 

There have been tests done that see if anything "Powerful" or anything happens when u pray...the results were their is nothing...but many feel that this is because we can't measure GOD power!

 

Yes once again, when SCIENCE evaluates religious claims, they fall apart. But believers will continue to believe no matter how erroneous their dogma is shown to be.

 

"It is hard to make non believers believe in anything that is not in there world...there white picket fence...only if u come in with a slug hammer and start destroying that fence...then they don't know where they belong...where there borders are..."

 

Actually it is VERY EASY to get non-believers to "believe". All it takes is PROOF. The difference between placing NO VALUE on your life, and requiriing SOMETHING of value in it.

 

And it has not been a hammer that, but a sword, that has been Christian's weapon of choice. The bible even has it's mythical Jesus saying so.

 

Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. "

 

But the biggest proof I have is right here...me... I am <hr

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: OpenMindFive

Freethinker, u are never firm footed and I like that, I wish you were on my side though...*****

 

********I ment to say FreeThinker u are really firm footed and that i wished u were on my side...i didn't mean never

 

But you were right the first time. I have decided that "When in Rome....", that is, when I am talking with Believers, who are always convinced they are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT (just as you have stated you are) NO MATTER WHAT, that I need to take the same appraoch. The BIG difference is that I can SUPPORT my claims.

 

Beyond that, I am ready to reject any and all tenets I accept in my world view, whenever there is REASON to.

 

YOU are the one that flatly stated that no amount of proof, reasoning, logic, or even threat of death, could get you to even consider alternatives.

[Freethinker]

Originally posted by: Tormod

In light of this original post I think a lot of people who are posting in this thread are forgetting that this is a science forum, and that when people make claims, the clains need to be backed up by proof. The philosophy and humanities group is not in any way exempt from that.

 

So let's make some ground rules here:

 

1) Stop posting lists of links without further comments. If you really want to list to sites, explain what each site says and why it is important to this discussion (don't expect everyone else to read through an entire site looking for proof)

2) Stop asking "why do you need proof"

3) Stop saying "I just believe, so I don't need proof" (this is not a religious convention)

 

Anyone breaking these rules will be violating the spirit of these forums and may be temporarily banned.

 

Tormod

 

Thanks Tormod. I assumed that since this site strongly promoted Science that this would be the MO of it's discussion. Obviously not to this point. I seem to be the only one that asked for support for the various claims being made. No one else (you aside) seemed to even c0omprehend the concept of proof and supporting assertions with FACTS.

 

The question then becomes, as they either admit they hafve no proof, our by absense of providing any, show they have none, does this mean they will no longer post?

 

Or perhaps you can turn it into an actual intellectually honest discourse? Perhaps at least an attempt to provide some validity will follow?

[IrishEyes]

Oh I do so hope that you will still respond to me. I am really looking forward to reading your next post. Please don't let Tormod distract you from your mission... ;>P

I agreed with your position, gentlemen, for many years. As I mentioned, I was a strict atheist, and a firm opponent of creation. Yes, I was taught as a young child all of the stories from the Bible. They seemed fantastic, didn't they? Tell me who didn't love hearing of Noah and his two-by-two ark, or Jonah and his great fish? As I got older, however, they seemed too fantastic. I mean really, a big flood, and then the earth was re-populated by one family and a bunch of couples of animals? A man runs from the voice of God and ends up in the belly of a great fish? Or what about stories of Jesus? What a joke to my questioning mind. WHO would really choose to come to this earth and die for the sins of every single person ever born? What a total crock!So I searched and I studied for proof that these stories, and so many others, were lies.

Well, I was a bright young person, and my studies led me to science. What wonders I found there! Like-minded intelligent people that were not afraid to say "There is no god" were everywhere I turned. I must admit, that if I had truly wanted to name it, science would have really been called HEAVEN for me for a while. Theories were everywhere, and so very safe. What a great idea. I could just use my brain to come up with a theory, then research it, and hope for the best. If I was right, or even close, professors would lavish praise, students would gather round, everyone was thrilled. Of course, that little voice in me wouldn't be quiet, but hey, "There is no god" just kept shouting at the voice, so I was ok.

However, the more you study the theories in science, the more you see that they are more fantastic than the Bible. Evolution? Big Bang? Can you really say those two theories with a straight face yet deny the possibility of creation? Even the poeple that will stand up and defend evolution still can not point to any proof of it, yet still they say "Prove God created us". Can that be done by simply disproving evolution? Does it prove that God exists if you can't prove we evolved? Well, the logical conclusion would be that we either evolved or were created, and if evolution is disproved, then creation must be true. Creation can not be disproved, just as God can not be disproved. But neither can they be categorically proven to a single person. Wanna know why?

It's not a head thing. It's a heart thing. Freethinker and Tormod, you are obviously very intelligent people. I can see that you are both analytical, and willing to challenge age-old beliefs to those who will blindly follow. Well, I'm not a blind follower, but I am still a believer. I have examined the scientific evidence for the theories of our beginnings, and can come to only one conclusion - since I can find no proof of evolution to be genuine, and science offered no other true alternatives, the 'other' alternate must be true. When I accepted creation as a truth, God was very easy to accept. However, Jesus was not. But taken as a whole, if evolution is not true, then creation must be, and that leads to God, and confirms the Bible, so I was willing to believe in Jesus also. Again, I affirm that it comes back to your own personal morals. People that want to live their own life by their own rules are much more willing to turn to science and away from God. I'm not saying that all atheists and evolutionists are morally corrupt, so stop that thought already. It's not a personal attack. I just know that God didnt fit into how I wanted to live my life, so I searched for a way to disprove Him, and found science. If I hadn't searched more, if I had blindly accepted science as truth, I'd still be an atheist. Now, those are huge leaps, and they have been grossly simplified here. A few paragraphs represent decades of searching and study. But there you have it. As for specific religious beliefs, I do not think that is what this forum is for, but I will be more than hap

[Tormod]

Originally posted by: IrishEyes

Tormud, saying there is no God violates every rule in my Bible, so I guess we're even, huh? Thanks for the welcome. I didn't realize what kind of site it was when I entered. I actually Googled my way in trying to find help with a mouse-trap car for my 6 homeschooled children. But there was no help to be found for their science project on this Science and Technology website. Instead, I found a group of psuedo-intellectuals debating the existence of the great "I AM", trying to pass off the theory of evolution as fact, and belittling people that acknowledge the existence of God and creation.

 

1. Spell my name right before you talk about pseudointellectuals

2. Did you check out http://www.hypography.com/topics/mousetrapcar.cfm

3. Did you care to search for "mousetrap cars" in our search engine? (Oh, and check out our Top 10 linkspage, too)

 

Yourkind of post is the worst we get - you try to show off as a sensible person but you are just throwing dirt around. You haven't got the faintest clue as to who you are talking to and who you are calling "pseudointellectuals".

 

Be warned - one more shot below thebeltand you're out.

 

Tormod

[IrishEyes]

.....From Freethinker: And it has not been a hammer that, but a sword, that has been Christian's weapon of choice. The bible even has it's mythical Jesus saying so.

 

Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. " .....

 

You really shouldn't have brought up Scripture unless you were truly prepared to go there. You have fallen victim to the same thing many before you have, not only atheists, but Christians and Muslims alike. You have taken one isolated verse and quoted it out of context to try to 'prove' how horrible Christianity is.

If taken as a whole, the Gospel of Matthew, especially chapter 10, is a wonderful illustration of the love of both Jesus the Christ, and His father, God. In this chapter, the disciples are named, and Jesus has given them power to heal all manner of ills. They are told to go forth unto the Jews, the chosen of God, and teach, preach and heal. In the verse you quoted, ("Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword") Jesus is explaining that His message (Jesus is the Messiah promised to the Jews, and they are therefore no longer under the Law of Moses) will not bring peace, but conflict. He goes on to explain in following verses that His teachings will cause divisions in households, as some will want to cling to the Law.

Please, if you choose to quote Scripture as an illustration of how evil God is, take it in context, not as a single isolated statement. And yes, I re-quoted what you said was Matthew 10:34, as the KJV is actually the most accurate literal translation of the Bible in existence, and a few words DO make a difference.

[OpenMind5]

NO VALUE? My life has NO VALUE! I feel nothing of this...freethinker, u really can talk black into white..can u not? I give u a golf clap for that one...but let me tell u this...maybe i was a little open to the death talk with u...let me make it more CLEAR...I cannot and never will fly a plane...what I ment is I am not afraid of death...the christian belife...THATS MINE...death is like the center...the cross is a symbol of death...Christ died on a cross..for all of us...(this is my belifes) Look and read my signiture...about death...I am not afraid to die...but i would never be a rashional christsian and go around killing people in the name of...I mean come on!

 

U quoted:

 

Matthew 10

 

32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn

" 'a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--

36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[1]

37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

 

I beleive u quoted this verse out of context...u cannot do that with me...It appears plainly, that all who will live godly in Christ Jesus must suffer persecution; and we must expect to enter into the kingdom of God through many tribulations...the sword jesus "brings" is not of hatred...but of...GET THIS...PERSICUTION! Follwers must be read for pursicution...thats the warning!

This whole quote is being told to his 12 disciples as he warns them on how to preach...all the turnings of family is persicution...

 

now that i have cleared that one up...

(I know my bible...)

 

My life holds much value...and i ask u if you would have a reason to die freethinker?

Remeber...I am young..my life has much value...how old are u freethinker...what do u do for a living? Just some stuff i would like to know...thats all

 

OP5

[OpenMind5]

HEY IRSIH EYES! WE THINK ALIKE...LOL!

[IrishEyes]

Tormod, I do truly apologize for spelling your name incorrectly, and I corrected that mistake in other posts. It was not an intentional slam, and I was wrong.

As for the mouse-trap car, I searched Google and was led to a single thread here in which a specific question was asked about mousetrap car performance, and YOU answered and referred the person to Dr Fizzix. As I had already visited the referenced site, I decided to look around your site a little more. No, I did not check your search engine after the initial posts that I found, as I should have. Again, I was wrong. I should have thouroughly researched your entire site before stating my hypothesis that it was full of psuedo-intellects. My mistake. I truly do not understand how my remarks can get the "one more shot below the belt and you're out", yet others are much more abusive in both tone and contect and are praised by you.

And I challenge you on your statement about me throwing dirt around. I don't feel I have. I have been very respectful to you and Freethinker. I haven't 'yelled' or ranted. I've simply questioned you as you question others. My beliefs are mine, they will probably not be changed by anything I read on your site concerning God or evolution, just as I would suspect that your beliefs will not be changed either. But as a parent who spends a great deal of time home with small children, it is fun to engage in intellectual conversations with adults outside of my home once in a while. Spending years in college, working, being a part of a military, teaching, and trying to make the world a 'better place' does not always prepare you for arguments your children give when questioning your belief in God. If I can hang with you guys, I feel confident that I can volley with my kids when the time comes. Please don't take that as me calling you children, that's not it at all. You all seem to be very intelligent! I am hoping to be able to have these discussions with my children, and this is partly preparation.

Please don't boot me before I can read Freethinkers response... Pretty please....

[Tormod]

IrishEyes,

 

we rarely boot people, but we warn them. The dirt you threw was a) rambling about this website without knowing what you were talking about and B) calling people "pseudointellectuals".

 

I have responded to your latest post in the evolution thread so let's take it from there. I think this "god" discussion is falling way off track and I would like to spend my energy somewhere else right now.

 

My belief is not likely to be changed by anyone here, but I run this site mainly because I want to learn something new every day. And learning how people think and argue their points is a crucial part of that.

 

I was brought up an atheist and have "practised" atheism all my life. I have a wife and two beautiful daughters and we live a happy (although quite busy) life without religion. I denied military service on grounds of pacifism. I have deeply religious friends with whom I have excellent relationships. I have read some 300 books on popular and less popular science in the past 10 years and feel quite astonished at the wealth of knowledge we human beings posess.

 

But I still feel that I know very little at all, and that the more I learn, the more I wonder at things. But for me, that has never been a search for anything "divine", but rather a search to find out how things became what they are. I guess that is why cosmology is my field of interest - it incorporates so many ideas into one area.

 

Now you know a bit more about me. And you're not the first to spell my name wrong (if I throw out people for that I'd be here by myself).

 

Tormod

[Tim_Lou]

IrishEyes, welcome to our arugment!!!

 

wow, cant believe many ppl have posted here

[Tim_Lou]

first of all, i have to disagree that religious is harmful to our society.

 

first, religious provided an answer to death, which none of the science have.

i stats that death is not the end! during war time, many people are believe in religious so many of them are not scared of deaht, they fought breavly to protect our countries.

 

also, religious provided many other answers such as the meaning of life, love, hatred.....

that kept many people from being a criminal.....

 

some religious might lead to a horrible side, but its not the majority.

 

ok, let me tell you some of my store (dont laugh):

it was about a year ago. i got a baby blue jay felling from a tree. i pet him since that day on. i loved him, and i know he loved me. he would sleep on my leg and my hands....one day, he died, i was feeling so bad for several days....i kept blaming myself for not being very good to him, i blame myself for not spending a lot of time w/ him. For everything i do, i feel sad......until i went to a book store and bought a book, it was about after life. i feel that i was relieved, i knew that hes in heaven and probably having a good time.... while before i was in the ocean of science and a failed to understand life and death. after i read the book, i changed a lot. i start to understand the world. b4, many things dont make sense to me, especially life, but now w/ science and the god, things became clear...... b4 this, i was never believed in god (although i was forced to study things about god in school for like 5 years when i was little), now, i changed. With this extended knowledge, i can understand the world, i know what im doing and what it is for....

 

god made science and this wonderful world. he gave us the power to wonder. if you were the god, i bet you wont want anyone to know your existance. the bible might not be true (i dont believe many stuffs in bible). here are some explaination in the view point of god and science.

 

for life, god explains it. in sciense, people dont really know where life came from (no one can make an organism and they can only produce pre cell so far (not an organism) ). evolution might be true but what causes "pre call" to evolve into organisms? ......i guess it has nothing to do w/ evolution.....

 

for the world. it was said that the world came from big bang w/ infinity tempature and mass, but now is proven wrong. with all the fantasy, what makes sense for you? god gave a pretty good explaination to it. and in that site, you read about the specialties of light, and in NDEs, all people saw different kind of light... god is said to be light. light doesnt really exist in the real world (it has no volume thus doesnt exist in the physical dimensions), and say that light is god makes sense. photons can transform into matter, and matter can transform into hpotons. its saying that existance can be created and disappear. in sciense, people failed to answer where did the world come from. you might say it was big bang, but where did it come from? membranes....where did membranes come from?.....ultimately, one fails to explain these.

 

god is actually the one hypothesis which made most sense. name one thing that god doesnt make sense and we can discuss it and compare it to other science theories.

 

 

sorry for big posts, i hate to do that....lol......thx for reading.

[IrishEyes]

Tim, it's nice to be here, thanks.

I want to point out that as this thread is entitled "GOD", that's how I've been basing my posts. It is not a religious thread, but a "God" thread. Too many times, the existence of God is tied in to different religious ideologies. That's not what I mean to do. There are many different religions that profess a belief in God, or a god, or many gods, but not the Bible. I also understand that. And I agree wholeheartedly that religion is the cause of more deaths than anything else in this world. Again, I stress RELIGION is the cause, NOT God.

I'm not trying to disprove anyone's specific religious beliefs. However, I also will not blindly accept the claims of science in trying to explain the origins of life. Just because people do not want to believe in God, and so reject creation, does not mean that scientific theories are true. That's why they are still theories. And in that vein, creation would also be considered a theory. I can aacept that some people hold that view (of creation as theory), if others will accept that not everyone should be required to blindly accept evolution (in the most common definition) as the basis for human life.

[Tim_Lou]

actually, im not trying to prove god exist here, im just saying that believe in god is not a "stupid" thing. people are always thinking that god is non-science and non-sense.

 

god is a hypothesis as i said, it has evidence and it is waiting for more to prove it. as well as other science hypothesis. it is impossible to prove god at this point, nor can it be disapproved (ppl said it many times...). also, the old way that says god is just faith has ended. the new "god" is combining w/ science to lead us to a totally new knowledge. we are all waiting, for the theory to be completed and tell people the total truth.

[§olid§nake]

I am a Roman Catholic and I believe wholeheartedly that God exists. After reading many of these posts, especially the ones by freethinker, i notice that those who believe there is no God demand proof from us who believe that there is a God. I can honestly say that, although I believe in God, I can present no solid proof that would be universally accepted by the scientific community. All I can offer is this. Catholicism is my FAITH. its what i take on a basis of faith to be true. Im not trying to preach or anything, all i am saying is that belief in God is a matter of faith. OpenMindFive depicted life as a test to see where one would go after life, heaven or hell.

 

Originally posted by: OpenMindFive

As a Christan I am Compelled to say the meaning is to serve God, but I think life is more complex than that...if any of you read the posts on "After life" I said my ideas heaven and hell or like ladders where we can ascend or desend....I Think life is more like a test really, lifes meaning is to test the soul to see if it will give into temptaion, or except god, or both...God knows what is in your heart, and how u will live, but he is giving u another chance to cah ge with life...thats my preception of Life...a big test to see if u go up or down in the levels of exsistance...(Heaven, Hell)

 

OP5

 

This makes a lot of sense to me, I agree with openmind. I believe that God makes it difficult for us to prove his existence because He wants us to be able to have faith in Him. Therefore, I am not saying that I can prove God exists, but the opposite. I cannot prove it. I take it as a matter of faith.

 

-Matt Pankratz

Tucson, AZ

[sanctus]

Some people in this post, used the bible to proof th existence of god (I don't remember who, so I can't make a quote).

I think I have here a kind of a proof (or better a partial proof), as different assertions about divine intervention, can be explained by scientific means. You know the ten (or seven?,I don't remember) plagues of egypt, well I saw once a documentary in Australia (I don't live there so Iè have got no idea how to find the name of it and some reference on the internet...). I do not remember all the explanation of the different plagues, but here is what I still have in mind:

 

it didn't rain for quite long time, as a consequence the water became perfect for the unicelleular seaweeds (algaes) to reproduce themselves and to cover all the water, as a consequence the waterplants under the surface died as there were no sunrays passing through the unicellular algaes. At this stage the bacteria reponsible for decomposition statrted their work on the dead plants, they slowly used all the oxygen in the water and so eventually all the fish died.

 

The chain reaction coninues until getting to the last plague, all the oldests sons of every family dies. The "state" put aside the wheat and eventually started to distribute it, but (sorry for my lack in my memory) during the chain reaction all the wheat got poisoned. At this time it was tradition to send the eldest son to get wheat distributed by the "state" and as they were all starving obviously they ate some on the way back home and died.

 

I admit that there many lacks in this proof, but I know it has been proven and a deduce hereof (I see it's a bit like believing, but you pay me and my research for a lifetime will be to explain scientifically all divine interventions )that all the divine interventions can be explained on scientific facts.

 

This is why I think the bible is just a book, people made up for accounting history and as they didn't know why things happened they needed a god.

 

And therefore the bible is no proof of the existence of god (nothing against the book itself, I still believe it has the purpose to help people living if they seek help there) .