rileyj Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 by the way i saw that info on the news if you want a web site to prove it find one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjby the way i saw that info on the news if you want a web site to prove it find one Since you brought the subject up, what your saying is that Christianity attracks criminals. In fact you are correct. It's surprising how many people remark to me, "You're an Atheist? You must have no conscience about committing crime then." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we see a very different picture. In "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without religious training is about 1/10th of 1%. W.T. Root, Professor of Psychology at the University of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said, "Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers were absent from penitentiaries, or nearly so. During 10 years of those executed for murder 65% were Catholics, 26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious. Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics, 435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and 1 Unitarian. Surveyed Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate to be religious. In Joliet Prison, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists... and no prisoners identified as non-religious. Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in the state population; but in the prisons, there were 22 times as many Baptists as Jews, and 18 times as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing, there were 1,553 inmates, 855 of them (over half) Catholics, 518 Protestants, 117 Jews, and 8 non-religious. Steiner first surveyed 27 states and found 19,400 Christians, 5,000 with no preference and only 3 Agnostics (one each in Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Illinois). A later, more exhaustive survey found 60,605 Christians, 5,000 Jews, 131 Pagans and only 3 Agnostics. In one 19-state survey, Steiner found 15 non-believers, Spiritualists, Theosophists, Deists, Pantheists and 1 Agnostic among nearly 83,000 inmates. He labeled all 15 as "anti-christians." The Elmira, N.Y. reformatory system overshadowed all others, with nearly 31,000 inmates, including 15,694 Catholics (half) and 10,968 Protestants, 4,000 Jews and 0 unbelievers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjhey freethinker is it possible to shorten your replys No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_Lou Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 hmmm...there are many murderers who are believing in god DOESNT mean that the religious is BAD. they just used GOD as an excuse.... also, many people having some mental problems or something like that try to believe in god to help them....so, many murderers are believed in god... religious helped many people out, but it failed sometimes.... murderers tried to believe in god to help them....thats y there are many god believing murderers. well, some people got droven crazy by religious, but today's society also made many people crazy, not just religious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Tim, your a real kick! I enjoy reading your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 again nice numbers freethinker but how many "Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers" converted to a religious belief when they got in prison,or just say it because oddly that helps them get paroled. saying you found god is a great way to show that a person "repents from their sins".i'm sure that would leave a lot of "free-thinkers" out of that survey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrameleh Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 In general I tend to agree with Freethinker. If there is something to say in favor for religion as a constitution it is that it adds a certain amount of social coherence to society. On the other hand the cons are too many to ignore or to be balanced with that. The problem lies to the “absolutism” that all dogmas carry, this particular attribute is that gives to the believer the moral affirmation and the excuse to commit any atrocity he wants. When you are absolutely sure that by your actions you will be granted a place in heaven next to mountains of rice and houris to keep good company, then you can easily fly a plane into a building. This cannot happen to an atheist just because he cannot rely to any “revealed” truth. Science is the mean we have to try and know the world around us and science has no absolutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjagain nice numbers freethinker but how many "Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers" converted to a religious belief when they got in prison,or just say it because oddly that helps them get paroled. saying you found god is a great way to show that a person "repents from their sins". i'm sure that would leave a lot of "free-thinkers" out of that survey. So you are saying that non-believers lie about it ALL the time? MOST of these numbers are based on data supplied at initial intake. NOT later conversions. Some ARE based on later surveys. But those were ANONYMOUS replies and would NOT provide a benefit to those that would lie about it. Let's give some benefit of doubt and say that non-believers are TEN TIMES higher than surveyed AT INTAKE, or later ANONYMOUS. That would STILL mean almost NONE! Yes I agree that there is a religious prejudice by parole board reviews. All this shows is the hateful prejudice established by a religious mentality. Which BTW VIOLATES the Constitutional protection of the Constitution. IOW it again shows the harmful, hateful, prejudicial mindset promoted by religious belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Originally posted by: AndramelehIn general I tend to agree with Freethinker. Hey! Where'd you come from? I don't know how to hand this! Now I have to wonder what I said that was wrong! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geko Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 I agree. It shouldnt be denied that centuries of murder, torture and abuse have come as a direct result of religious influence. But this itself does not negate the teachings taught. For all you believers i want to say and ask the following. The bible (ALL religion) is a philosophy. Should philosophies be accepted, believed and followed (or vice-versa)on the basis of their emotional response in the reader, without critical and cursory examination? What would your comments be with regard to the reasoning of someone, or group, that did such a thing? How do you think the teachings should be approached? Also, if philosophies fail to stand up to the questions posed due to their incomplete arguments should they still be seen as 'The Truth'? Are the people who do still choose to see them as the truth in denial? Ignorant? Open-minded? Or simply the only ones that have the courage left to see the light? And by the way, i find it hard to believe that anyone in this day and age actually accepts the flood (as told in the story) as an historical event. Amazing! Isnt it just a creation and renewal myth about how humans have triumphed through bad times??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 "again shows the harmful, hateful, prejudicial mindset promoted by religious belief." wow what happened to you? religion isn't that bad. even if god isn't real, i oubt that it causes as many problems as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 besides you would have to look at the mind set of the people, who probably used religion as a reason to kill a person or group of people. just because someone uses religion as a reason to kill doesnt make religion bad, only that person. besides if there wasnt religion i'm sure they would find another reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyj"again shows the harmful, hateful, prejudicial mindset promoted by religious belief." wow what happened to you? I learned to think. That is what happened to me. And I DO mean "Learned". Just like any other physical process, from golfing to making love, thinking can be done better by studying the process and developing a method of taking advantage of identified improvements. religion isn't that bad. even if god isn't real, i oubt that it causes as many problems as you think.Show me a major religion that has NOT been cause of hatred and murder. Religion Etymology: Middle English, from Old French religieus, from Latin religiosus, from religio - supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice,1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity. As such, by it's very nature, a religion establishes itself as the SUPERIOR philosophy over and above ALL OTHER philosophies. Thus at it's base, it establishes a selfrighteous superiority in the mind of the believer, a prejudicial pecking order. It provides motivation for the believer to make proactive efforts to enforce it's self assigned superiority over the philosophy of others. Add to this that every one of the written revelation based religions has it's own text which specifically requires it's adherents to suppress and kill others. Then look at the factual historical reality which provides extensive support for this assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freethinker Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 Originally posted by: rileyjbesides you would have to look at the mind set of the people, who probably used religion as a reason to kill a person or group of people. just because someone uses religion as a reason to kill doesnt make religion bad, only that person.When a person decides to follow a particular religion, and that religion's text states things like: Luke 19: 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. and that follower then "slays" someone as instructed, there is nothing that can refute the DIRECT CAUSAL relationship. besides if there wasnt religion i'm sure they would find another reason Nothing can cause a person to act against their inherent altruistic nature with anywhere near the level of motivation that a religion can. Show us what motivation could be used by an Atheist to kill thousands, including themselves in the process, that gets even close to the believed promise of godly reward in an afterlife including 76 virgins for enterity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 "selfrighteous superiority" i don't think all religions establish this,in fact many teach that their "god" is superior, not people. you can't blame religious beliefs for the actions of people, people that do wrong in the name of religion, again would find other reason to do wrong if religion was not around. andi'm sure there is a religion that has not caused hatred or murder. idoubt those little guys at the airport giving away flowers killing anyone. or what about the monks that set themselves on fire to protest war. i'm sure gandi never hurt anyone. that guy put a screen over thewater he drank so as not to swallow any bugs that might have gotten in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 "Show us what motivation could be used by an Atheist to kill thousands, including themselves in the process"what about a postal worker that kills all his co-workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyj Posted April 9, 2004 Report Share Posted April 9, 2004 and what about the american revolution thousands were killed for that or the civil war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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