Long Live Perpetual Motion!

[Dark Mind]

Okay this is a revival of a dead thread I posted a while back, I'm hoping for some different perspectives and answers this time around, like if it could theoretically be possible.

 

Something that I know is supposed to just completely irrationalize perpetual motion is entropy (Second law of Thermo-dynamics) but I think I have a way to overcome this little gremlin in the mechanics by using twenty super-conductive magnets laid down at 36° (ten on the ground or other support and ten above those) and they would be tilted like a back-slash ( / ) at somewhere between 15°-45° (probably closer to 45) , they would also be slightly overlapping each other. The magnets would need to be cooled to maintain super conductivity(at least right now they need to be, but not for long!...:shrug:) by something or other (suggestions?), and one of the levels of the magnets (I was thinking the upper one) would also be connected by some sort of steel or metal (I was thinking Platinum or Titanium) rod in the center of both the levels (upper and lower) of magnets and the rod would rotate as the opposite magnetic fields of the magnets perpetually propelled them away from one another. This rotation could then be used to obtain some sort of energy after being transferred to a generator of some sort, the energy, I'm assuming, would probably be electric but it may be kinetic, and transferred to somewhere or something else.

 

Sorry for all the vaguery, and lack of an actual visual. :o

 

Ask if you need clarification and I'll do my best to help understanding.:o

[C1ay]

Newton said, "Every object persists in it's state of rest or uniform motion in a straight line unless it is compelled to change that state by forces impressed on it."

 

Basically a body in motion tends to remain in motion unless acted on by an outside force like friction. Theortically you could set a body spinning in space and it would spin forever.

 

If you have any friction or other load then the system needs additional energy to remain in motion as the load itself would convert energy to another form. However, the First Law of Thermodynamics states, "Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed." This means that your machine cannot create the energy to overcome friction or other loads, it must run with only the energy it is started with. Also, The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy. Because of this your machine will steadily convert the potential energy it is started with until it has converted all of it. At that point you will have to input energy.

 

Good luck in overturning these.

[BEAKER]

Good luck

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[Smokinjoe9]

I believe it can be done, I don't know how yet, but go for it....I would love to see the laws of Thermal dynamics broken.. I would jump right on the band wagon. :shrug:

[BEAKER]

I believe it can be done, I don't know how yet, but go for it....I would love to see the laws of Thermal dynamics broken.. I would jump right on the band wagon. :shrug:

I agree with you Smokin'. Thats why I've spent much of the past six years experimenting with different designs - many of which I came up with long before I had any idea that people have been attempting this for centuries; and also before I discovered that there were more than a few web sites dedicated to perpetual motion - most from the stand point that it is impossible.

 

Some of my prototypes were very similar to ones that had been tried before and failed, and others were quite different. But if it doesent work, it really doesent matter how unique it may be. It's been exciting to have actually built these things and see first hand exactly what they do, and don't do. I have been on the verge of giving up, and believing that maybe it really is imposible; and then I get one to do what I want it to - and it almost...... - but it still doesn't work.

 

It takes a lot of time. In the words of a physics major friend of mine; "...I don't believe it's possible. - still; no one has proved that it's impossible".

 

im still working on it.:o

 

By the way - FYI; I designed your Avatar.

[UncleAl]

like if it could theoretically be possible.

If you know you are an idiot, and we know you are an idiot, and each knows the other knows you are an idiot, why do you further pursue the point?

 

"Az di bobe vot gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde."

Do you have three grandfathers?

 

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

Perpetual motion machines

[Buffy]

As I was reading this thread, I looked over to the left at the column of updated topics. You know what the top one was?

Slowing of Earth's Spin

Its a gigantic ball of iron, in perpetual freefall through a nearly pure vacuum, and it even has energy streaming into it that you'd have to worry about subtracting out when working out your Conservation of Energy equations. Its spinning like mad in a perfect rendition of Newton's laws of inertia and guess what?

 

ITS SLOWING DOWN!

 

Do ya think that means something relevant to finding a perpetual motion machine? That infinitessimally small bit of friction is going to slow it down eventually. Why would any of these machines--no matter how much WD-40 or fancy magnets you had--NOT eventually slow down?

 

And then of course there's that killer issue: all you end up with is a really cute toy for your desk, because if it does *any* useful work at all, its *got* to slow down all the faster.

 

But we all know how boys like their toys! :shrug:

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[quantum quack]

the key that I have come to understand is that the energy or motion you wish to produce has to be part of the energy cycle, in other words the motion or energy must be necessary to maintiain the laws of thermodynamics and not break them.

So the device must conform to energy conservation laws......perpetually or at least pseudo perpetually.

 

An example could be tidal electricity generators where by a generator pulls energy from the moons effect on the tidal flows. the energy produced is psueudo free and reasonably pepetual. The same could be said for wind turbiunes and solar energy, They all rely on a source of forces and energy that are reasonably perpetual.

 

A device to be successful must act in similar ways, even if it seems to be contained in a device that sits on your desk.

[Buffy]

...perpetually or at least pseudo perpetually....An example could be tidal electricity generators where by a generator pulls energy from the moons effect on the tidal flows. the energy produced is psueudo free and reasonably pepetual....A device to be successful must act in similar ways, even if it seems to be contained in a device that sits on your desk.

Baaaaaaa, wull heck if all you care about is that it keeps *going* that would not preclude hooking it up to a solar cell array, or heck, just a really well built 350 cubic inch Chevy small block hooked directly into the local gas pipeline.

 

I was under the mistaken impression that perpetual motion machines were supposed to operate *without* external energy input. Heck that's not amazing, thats just everyday mechanical engineering! What's the big deal then? With this definition, EVERY machine is "pseudo-perpetual"....eventually they fall apart though, as long as they're mechanical, the only challenge is keeping the materials from deteriorating, and then the cost-benefit analysis sez its cheaper just to assume planned obsolescence....

 

Deteriorata,

Buffy

[BEAKER]

If you know you are an idiot, and we know you are an idiot, and each knows the other knows you are an idiot, why do you further pursue the point?

 

"Az di bobe vot gehat beytsim volt zi geven mayn zeyde."

Do you have three grandfathers?

 

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

Perpetual motion machines

"we're so sorry...Uncle Albert...But we haven't done a bloody thing all day!"

 

I might say that personally, I don't think perpetual motion is possible either, that's why I'm trying to build a magnetic motion generator. It's all a matter of semantics. You say potato, I say patato. But y'know; with all your vehement anger and hostility. God still loves you.

 

by the way, your Avatar is actually a picture of me. Who's the idiot now?:shrug:

[quantum quack]

Buffy, the thing i was trying to say was that even if you build a static magnet driven PPM it still must confrom with the laws of conservation.

 

 

get three magnets , a steel weight and a bit of string, and still it all must conform with conservation laws....ha

 

so if a device conforms to the laws does this mean the definition of PPM is not valid?

After all who says that a PPM must defy conservation laws?

[quantum quack]

just as an interest in the hypothetical i thought i'd post this little imaginary PPM concept

 

[BEAKER]

After all who says that a PPM must defy conservation laws?

QQ, the laws of conservation of energy are pretty indisbutable. Your three magnet steel ball trick will certainly come to rest at the point of least resistance. That doesn't mean I think it's impossible to achieve motion, but that design wouldn't power anything usable, and it will eventually stop. I just think that the possibilities for actually utilizing the permanant magnetic feild are largely untapped, and will never be discovered by people who have already given up. It's easier to say "It can'be done!" than it is to do it.

[Buffy]

Buffy, the thing i was trying to say was that even if you build a static magnet driven PPM it still must confrom with the laws of conservation....get three magnets , a steel weight and a bit of string, and still it all must conform with conservation laws....ha...so if a device conforms to the laws does this mean the definition of PPM is not valid?

After all who says that a PPM must defy conservation laws?

Well that's fair enough, but then you started talking about using an external energy source like wave motion, and sure energy will be conserved, but that's really no different than plugging it into a wall! Once you say that your perpetual motion machine can be externally powered, is it really still a PPM? It could still be really inefficient at that point, producing heat through friction and so forth, but it would move forever, but I'm not sure what makes that PPM. My car is psuedo PPM under that definition. What am I missing?

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[BEAKER]

the energy necessary to create the heat is more than the usable energy obtained; and when the energy is used up that creates the heat, the rotation stops. ths is not a PMM example.

[C1ay]

the energy necessary to create the heat is more than the usable energy obtained; and when the energy is used up that creates the heat, the rotation stops. ths is not a PMM example.

Correct. Nothing powered by the sun or gravity or any other external source is a PPM example. Nor are the zillion contraptions that people try to build with magnets since magnets even lose their fields eventually. In short, no machine can convert it's own potential energy to kinetic energy and simultaneously replensih the potential energy it converted in the process.

[BEAKER]

Correct. Nothing powered by the sun or gravity or any other external source is a PPM example. Nor are the zillion contraptions that people try to build with magnets since magnets even lose their fields eventually. In short, no machine can convert it's own potential energy to kinetic energy and simultaneously replensih the potential energy it converted in the process.

You should see some of the things I've made, you might be intrigued. As far as magnets loesing their feild strength, that may be true, but if that's the only reason it's not "perpetual", I've got some five year old neo-didium magnets and some sumarian cobalt ones that haven't lost any noticable strength in all that time. That is not why it doesnt work.:shrug: