Perpetual motion

[scorpio_fl]

I believe a purpetual motion machine is possible and dearly needed in the world we live in. I find it hard to believe that nobody's willing to work on this because (it can't be done). I believe with the great minds we have today a free energy source could be found. I believe the purpetual motion motor is the answer to this.does no one have any new approaches to this???Buddy Brown...

[IDMclean]

The only person to ever invent anything like a perpetual motion engine is dead. Most of his best works set on some shelf in a vault somewhere. if your interested look into Nicholai Tesla's work.

 

The problem with perpetual motion is that it can't be maintained if it's energy is being syphoned off. What you can do is use ambient energy sources such as solar and Magnetic to generate power. Magnetic is where my moneys at.

[alxian]

perpetual motion requires that you remove friction or amplify energy somewhere to counteract friction energy loss since all systems exist within systems and will under no circumstances not share energy with its surroundings.. the mere idea of perpetual motion requires movement, movement requires energy, energy will flow in and out of your system, more energy will probably flow out of your system unless yuo can perfect the vector of you motive particle (i would assume because at speed any jumble of particles would rattle itself to peices)

 

what you end up with is one particle moving at infinite speed because to obeserve it means energy must go in and out of your system

 

or

 

your motive mass will be invisible and infinitely dense not allowing any particle to have a vector diferrent from the proposed vector. which by definition means that you motive mass should be moving at infinite speed and have infinite mass..

 

or

 

you could tell us what magical means by which your motive mass is being pushed through space (defying friction) which is entirely possible since superpotential particles are finally getting serious consideration from the scientific community.. but if these particles impart minute amounts of energy into your perpetual system then... how are you managing to stabalize the energy transfer? because perpetual motion again by definition is silly, either it will speed up or slow down, but can't slow down so it has to have equilibrium in energy gain and energy lost while remaining dynamic, or it speeds up, eventually breking the matter energy barrier and thus its status of perpetual motion machine... lets assume the equilirium bit is impossible, and that your machine will speed up until its dematerializes.. what does it turn into? more superpotential particles? that conitnue to move faster? or begin at some point to slow down.. losing energy to the subluminal, matter universe?

 

but

 

perpetual motion could be real if string theory is even remotely correct

 

super potential particles interact with strings causing them to vibrate (what plucks the string?), that infantessimally small amount of power is limitlessly replenishable.

 

find a way to make strings hum in a domain and you can source energy at its source by removing energy from that subatomic system, but how to polarize strings and create such domains? impossible for now (at least until some nutcracker comes along saying that strings are not the end and they can be manipulated) but thats hundreds of years away (hopefully)

 

so... how to make strings hum in unison? would doing so cause amplification and destruction of the laws of physics in that local space? since its that string vibration that creates the template for that larger construct we define as the atom, with its various parts all encoded in the symphony of countless vibrating strings.

 

i find it funny science should say that extra dimensions in string theory are hard to understand, whats hard to understand is the rifts in what is that people think extra dimensions are.. and where this idea that extra dimensions are metrically similar to any of the very different 3 (4) we know of.. yes x-y-z are similar but the values are not calculating anything even remotely similar to each other.. add time as a 4 dimension and you have 4 very distinct metrics by which to measure the universe. how can IT come from another dimension?? when that other dimension could be something like an inverse angle to the standard x-y-z.. even if something existed inversely to everything, how could it possibe change the phase of all of its standard dimensions??? its mind boggling what hollywood does to science.

 

it is said that if string theory is right also that the values (of quantum physics are extremely finely balanced) of the quantum world should not be toyed with.. so sourcing energy directly from strings could lead to such an unexpected thing as the atomic bomb (where, black power>atomics>string resonance amplification, could yeild such amazing phase changes as gamma ray burts or big bang type events... the aftermath of which would be a universe humming to a slightly different tune and quantum physics values just slightly off what we are used to.. perhaps whats beyond the edge of the known universe is yet still more universe.. only the laws of physics shift slightly here and there if strings don't vibrate exactly the same everywhere maybe the density of strings affect the pitch causing local physics values to become more pronouced in some regions of the universe and other regions don't have as high a string density altering physics slightly the light energy barrier may be higher or lower, the atomic strong and weak forces may become on unique force.. other forces may exist that we don't know about...like how a string of a certain length vibrating quickly will have more regions than one vibrating slowly, these regions = unique measurable dimensions in the bigger world..).. but think of it more as amplification or phase change of energy in its purest from from deep inside the core of an atom... which won't hold any regard for adjacent atoms being of a different charge etc when the amplification/phase change is on the string level.. much the same as how nuclear reactions start at the subatomic level but propagate indescrimenantly until an equilibrium is established. but if during an atomic explosion matter changes to energy what is the equal and opposite reaction? its not hard to understand for the atomic explosion every particle that is collided with and separates generates two (or more?) lighter atoms and some energy.. would it be the same if strings were to be retuned and amplified (or have energy removed)? the resulting atoms would become lighter or heavier without interacting with outside energy sources? could you then create new forms of matter simply by tuning the strings of a lump of bucky balls until you got the worlds densest diamond? (being careful to not generate black holes or supernovas in the process..

[alxian]

Magnetic is where my moneys at.

 

 

because if you are good enough you could polarize the region in which your mass would move.. or cheat by maknig an energy syphon going into your machine from ambient sources, but cleverly releasing energy as radiation to maintain internal equilibrium and your mass dynamic.

 

i still says sucking the power from string vibration will yeild higher amounts of power per gram for sillyness like perpetual motion machines..

 

maybe such zero point energy machines could be put to better use.. generating infinite replenishable power for intergallactic teleportation (but i kid.. entangled pair teleportation just doesn't sit well with me) are there other types i should look into?

 

<(huge stargate fan)

[Buffy]

Hey scorpio, if you were able to disprove the second law of thermodynamics, you'd have some happy people around here because it would eliminate the silly claim that entropy disproves Evolution cuz ya can't create order from disorder; but relevant here: if it moves (kinetic energy) yur gonna have less potential energy left in the system. Also of course there's the law of conservation of energy (first law of thermodynamics) which sez ya can't create or destroy energy, so you need to have both no friction and do no useful work. If you can make it go without gas, and have it get me from here to LA, I'll pay you at least a buck or two. Go fer it!

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[IDMclean]

because if you are good enough you could polarize the region in which your mass would move.. or cheat by maknig an energy syphon going into your machine from ambient sources, but cleverly releasing energy as radiation to maintain internal equilibrium and your mass dynamic.

 

i still says sucking the power from string vibration will yeild higher amounts of power per gram for sillyness like perpetual motion machines..

 

maybe such zero point energy machines could be put to better use.. generating infinite replenishable power for intergallactic teleportation (but i kid.. entangled pair teleportation just doesn't sit well with me) are there other types i should look into?

 

<(huge stargate fan)

Yes.

Nicholai Tesla. He is not mentioned much in Physic books but he is one of the greatest invetors of all time.

 

Some of his inventions involved using the resounant Ambient Magnetic field of Earth to generate Power. His very dream what he strove for was a world with free power. He invented and discovered many of the things that make the modern world possible. AC power is his. Microwave transmission (cell phones and radios) is his. The tesla Coil a device that generated minute ammounts of power from seemingly nothing is his discovery. look him up in google. Careful though alot of fans of his make claims that creep into the supernatural.

 

For a good realistic goal one should try to hybridize Solar, Wind, Hydro, Geological, and Magnetic Ambient sources into a single type of generator.

 

Nueclear, Cold Fusion, Anti-Matter, String, and Chemical are good idea's but really are more for the future when we have a better grasp on what we are dealing with and how to deal with it.

[alxian]

ya can't create order from disorder

 

 

as elegant a theory as removing energy from a disorderly system will cause it to gain order to the outside observer.. it just sounds too simple

 

 

i.e. dude in space ship sits next to black whole with vaccum cleaner (read more powerful black hole.. at no point will the singularity morph back into a star...

 

but.. arguably can not adding energy to a system make complex system less complex? i.e. adding more mass to juspiter and having it transform from a gas giant planet into a start as per sci-fi?

 

which is more complex the planet jupiter as is.. or jupiter made into a star?

 

 

---

but of course i was just being silly as its plain that the new jovian star would lose far more energy than the current planet would. thus rendering the example moot

[alxian]

Careful though alot of fans of his make claims that creep into the supernatural.

 

which any scientist worth throwing funding at knows is where the best discoveries remain hidden.. in ridicule an ignorance for those smart enough and brave enough to seek them

 

For a good realistic goal one should try to hybridize Solar, Wind, Hydro, Geological, and Magnetic Ambient sources into a single type of generator

 

don't we call that weather?

[IDMclean]

ya can't create order from disorder.

 

Order == Disorder

Action == Inaction

 

When a serial killer attemps to choose targets at random he/she creates a pattern. Number one being most notably the dessicion to make no orderly dessicions.

 

Wheather you choose to or choose not to you are choosing. and that is order and is action.

 

I think of the universe the same way if it doesn't exsist then that is the only even psuedo way for it not to be one "state" or another.

[IDMclean]

which any scientist worth throwing funding at knows is where the best discoveries remain hidden.. in ridicule an ignorance for those smart enough and brave enough to seek them

 

For a good realistic goal one should try to hybridize Solar, Wind, Hydro, Geological, and Magnetic Ambient sources into a single type of generator

 

don't we call that weather?

Indeed. However we have not tapped it's power.

We have not tapped most of the resources in the world let alone in the solar system, galaxy, or universe.

What I speak of is a human usable (DC or AC) power source.

[Buffy]

as elegant a theory as removing energy from a disorderly system will cause it to gain order to the outside observer.. it just sounds too simple

Dat's cuz it is! Entropy doesn't work in reverse unless you can get time to go backwards!

but.. arguably can not adding energy to a system make complex system less complex? i.e. adding more mass to juspiter and having it transform from a gas giant planet into a start as per sci-fi?

Nah, information theory sez adding potential energy to a system increases its order. A course you're unleashing a whole lotta kinetic energy to get it to Jupiter from elsewhere, but the info ends up in there, as order and you can get it out cuz you can expend enough energy to break out of Jupiter's gravitational field. Hawking worried though that dumping stuff into a blackhole actually destroys information (thus violating the second law), but he recently said "okay, xray emmissions from black holes can reconstitute the information (energy) that went in."

 

I don't pretend to really understand any of this, but it pops out somewhat coherently sometimes....

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Tormod]

This is in the wrong forum. Moving it to the physics forum.

[bumab]

What about using gravity as an energy source, along with the magnetic field of the earth? You've probably heard about the new experiments in "propellantless propulsion," using an electrodynamic tether in space to raise or lower an orbital distance.

 

I wonder if it would be possible to generate power from the tether moving through orbit (and the magnetic field) effeciently and usefully. As the tether moved, it would obviously drag and lose altitude, but at some point, couldn't a current be switched on through the tether which would cause the satalites to be shoved into higher orbit (again, through the magnetic field). You could repeat this cycle over and over, gaining useful energy in an off and on manner.

 

It's obviously not perpetual motion, but it's pretty cool.

[maddog]

Dat's cuz it is! Entropy doesn't work in reverse unless you can get time to go backwards!

Ahhh! Interesting idea. Some physicist speculate that one can interpret antiparticles as though they

are time reversed. So what of the entropy of antiparticles like say the positron or antiproton ? I have

not read on anything of this sort. Though I do see it might be hard to design an experiment to test

negative entropy.

 

Maddog

[pgrmdave]

I remember reading somewhere (don't remember where, but it was online) that the idea of increasing entropy within quantum physics meant only that it was most likely that it would increase, not that it was the only possibility. I remember them using the example of a bathtub cooling - that it is an example of increasing entropy as the heat dissipates, but that, it is possible, though not likely, to work in reverse - i.e. the heat energy in the room could converge on the water in such a way as to heat it. I'm not saying that it is likely, but things with even extremely low probabilities, given enough time WILL occur.

[IDMclean]

The teather idea. It's been tested with the international Space Station.

 

The problem was that the current generated was so great that it burnt the Teather.

 

Rules of current generation. A magnetic field that moves through another magnetic field generates an electrical field and a Electrical field that moves through another electrical field generates a magnetic field. Right?

 

Well the earth has a huge Magnetic Field which remains untapped. you send something into orbit that drags that field. Uses some of the power generated to remain in orbit. you have a potentially unlimited ammount of power to distribute.

[alxian]

What I speak of is a human usable (DC or AC) power source.

 

don't be silly

 

all power (at least most of it) used on earth is based on solar energy (defined as based on our sun after it formed and began beaming down on our planet)(i.e. gas wind hydro) to point out the most obvious ones.

 

ac/dc (electric)(which you probably wanna refine further to whatever passes through power grids) power accounts for a very small percentage of human power consumption, i'd dare bet gas energy (all this fossil fuel and burned wood (burned organic matter (which to be perfectly honest is solar)) is good as used or comparable to electrical power.

 

not to mention that electrical power is sourced from burning organic matter in the first place. and the only powersource that was never alive is nuclear, which the US is quietly and slowly warming up to again, if the state of the union address is to be taken seriously... i guess dubya was passed a copy of wired that states pebble bed nuclear power will be safer and easier to run for communities (much more so than the disasterous earlier american attempts)