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An Examination Of Trump.


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#1 montgomery

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:41 PM

According to many psychologists, Trump can be diagnosed by observing his media appearances and behaviour, and no in person diagnosis is required. He's been solidily branded as a narcissist, we are told. Is he?

 

But is Trump also a psychopath? A corporate psychopath?

 

Do we have any experts in the field who can tell us more about Trump's personality definitively? and then if he truly is a corporate psychopath, what should we look for in order to see signs of that sort of behaviour? 



#2 GAHD

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 01:58 PM

Psychology is a soft a science as you can get next to gender studies.  I think anyone who says they can build a profile from television is a quack. That's like trying to profile Nicholas Cage based on Bringing Out the Dead and Drive Angry. It's working from a very selective data sample and quite prone to data contamination, in a 'science' as inductive as Psychoanalysis that can only compound issues any good shrink would recognize in their own discipline.

In a bit of irony: Having a talk with one of my practicing friends just a couple weeks ago we noted that much of the modern treatment methods actually mirror NPD and whatnot, as narcissists and psychopaths tend to intuitively understand how to bend the will and perception of others. The conversation concluded "if the tools work, use them". Still, If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....a shrink might just be a Narcissistic Psychopath themselves though self-programming of their own discipline.



#3 Farming guy

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 06:43 PM

Trump does not seem to me like a religious freak.  He seems to have no morals what so ever, and I watch in disbelief as his supporters are unflinching even as he contradicts himself daily.  It is like they have no memory of what he said before and they always agree with whatever he happens to be saying at any given minute.  I have tried to have a rational debate with a few Trump supporters.  It is impossible.  No amount of evidence will sway them.  



#4 GAHD

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Posted 16 January 2019 - 10:05 PM

Trump does not seem to me like a religious freak.  He seems to have no morals what so ever, and I watch in disbelief as his supporters are unflinching even as he contradicts himself daily.  It is like they have no memory of what he said before and they always agree with whatever he happens to be saying at any given minute.  I have tried to have a rational debate with a few Trump supporters.  It is impossible.  No amount of evidence will sway them.  

The question is, What evidence? Jealous lefties often call him Racist: Have yet to see evidence for it. He's definatly against illegals, but that's not a race. He's talked widely about cad culture, culture != race... So there's that.
I'm curious about the daily self contradiction, that seems like hyperbole? I mean, slander like that is kinda funny.


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#5 sanctus

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 07:45 AM

Gahd, his Charlottsville comments are an example of being racist. ("hatred, bigotry, and violence on many sides" and His statement and his subsequent defenses of it, in which he also referred to "very fine people on both sides",.)

Closing borders to Syrian refugees and the other musli majority countries he put on that list for some months (ok not racist but religion biased),

this:
5,000 persons had visited from Haiti, he commented, "They all have AIDS," and when reading that 40,000 persons had visited from Nigeria, he said that after seeing America the Nigerians would never “go back to their huts." Both officials who heard Trump's statements relayed them to other staff members at the time, but the White House has denied that Trump used those words and some of the other officials present claim not to remember them being used.

Then Joe Apaio pardon

Then comments on NFL sit-downs

Then: l Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, and African countries, Trump reportedly said: "Those shitholes send us the people that they don't want",

And there are more.


But yeah, if you are waiting for defensless black woman being beaten up by Trump, and he saying he has the right to, then yeah there is no evidence...but he might be stupid but not that stupid.
Yeah, it is the words he uses and defending neo-nazis in Charlottesville and when questioned about re-defending them is enough to brand him racist. And your comment about "that is not race" well humans have only one race anyway in the proper scientific definition...



#6 Farming guy

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 08:40 AM

The question is, What evidence? Jealous lefties often call him Racist: Have yet to see evidence for it. He's definatly against illegals, but that's not a race. He's talked widely about cad culture, culture != race... So there's that.
I'm curious about the daily self contradiction, that seems like hyperbole? I mean, slander like that is kinda funny.

A lot of "coincidences " with what we publicly know about his financial ties to Russia.  The fact that we still have tariffs on Canadian steel, but are importing steel from Russia with no tariffs. His claim that the wall with Mexico is urgent, even though he passed up a chance to get one built when Republicans controlled both the House and the Senate.  



#7 OceanBreeze

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 09:01 AM

this:
5,000 persons had visited from Haiti, he commented, "They all have AIDS," and when reading that 40,000 persons had visited from Nigeria, he said that after seeing America the Nigerians would never “go back to their huts." Both officials who heard Trump's statements relayed them to other staff members at the time, but the White House has denied that Trump used those words and some of the other officials present claim not to remember them being used.




Then: l Salvador, Haiti, Honduras, and African countries, Trump reportedly said: "Those shitholes send us the people that they don't want",

And there are more.


 

 

More what? More hearsay?

 

There are no transcripts or tapes to back up these allegations. Maybe he said these things, but maybe he did not.

 

You believe them to be true because you don't like him.

 

I don't particularly like him either but before I condemn anyone I need some evidence and hearsay just isn't good enough especially when some of the people present cannot confirm it.

 

 

 

 

But yeah, if you are waiting for defensless black woman being beaten up by Trump, and he saying he has the right to, then yeah there is no evidence...but he might be stupid but not that stupid.

 

 

 

Come on  sanctus, you are better than this. You are making this up whole cloth.

 

 

Yeah, it is the words he uses and defending neo-nazis in Charlottesville and when questioned about re-defending them is enough to brand him racist. And your comment about "that is not race" well humans have only one race anyway in the proper scientific definition...

 

 

 

There was fault on both sides. The so-called antifas are acting no different from the Nazis. They go around attacking people and destroying property. Sometimes I cannot tell the two sides apart, not based on ideology but based on actions.

 

Trump is certainly not a polished politician and he needs to be more thoughtful before he opens his mouth but I don't see any real evidence that he is racist. Being for secure borders is not racist. Being against highly paid NFL players disrespecting the flag or the playing of the national anthem is not racist. As a veteran, I support his stand against such disrespect. The NFL players can demonstrate all they want on their own time, not while they are being paid to play football and not during the playing of our national anthem.

 

That is my opinion.


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#8 OceanBreeze

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 09:04 AM

A lot of "coincidences " with what we publicly know about his financial ties to Russia.  The fact that we still have tariffs on Canadian steel, but are importing steel from Russia with no tariffs. His claim that the wall with Mexico is urgent, even though he passed up a chance to get one built when Republicans controlled both the House and the Senate.  

 

What are his financial ties to Russia? Do you have any specifics or just more hearsay?

 

He was going to build a hotel in Moscow because he was in that business so nothing strange there. Anything else?


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#9 montgomery

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 11:51 AM

Psychology is as soft a science as you can get next to gender studies.  I think anyone who says they can build a profile from television is a quack. That's like trying to profile Nicholas Cage based on Bringing Out the Dead and Drive Angry. It's working from a very selective data sample and quite prone to data contamination, in a 'science' as inductive as Psychoanalysis that can only compound issues any good shrink would recognize in their own discipline.

In a bit of irony: Having a talk with one of my practicing friends just a couple weeks ago we noted that much of the modern treatment methods actually mirror NPD and whatnot, as narcissists and psychopaths tend to intuitively understand how to bend the will and perception of others. The conversation concluded "if the tools work, use them". Still, If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck....a shrink might just be a Narcissistic Psychopath themselves though self-programming of their own discipline.

 
I fixed your first sentence so it makes sense. I hope I got it right. But I can't agree with your second. I think we lay persons know Trump better from his tweets and incessant babbling better than we know people to whom we've talked directly for the time an interiew would take. And I've also heard from a couple of professional friends in the mental health field that they feel confident in labeling Trump a narcissist. Knowing some traits of the psychopath or corporate psychopath myself, I highly suspect that Trump suits the label. 
 
Not being a professional myself, I've asked for professional opinions. I thank you for your opinion but it comes across as politically motivated and not objective. I'll have to read the rest of the replies to see if we're getting any kind of concensus of opinions.


Edited by GAHD, 20 January 2019 - 12:56 AM.
Fixed bad quote: please try not to do that

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#10 sanctus

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:03 PM

Oceanbreeze.

I believe them to be true because there are too many to be just made up. And yeah it is true that I do not like him. But if they were all false and only for defamation then wouldn't he have won lots of anti-defamation cases by now, no?.

You misundersstod me where I said the thing about beating up a black woman: it was referring to Gahd's comment that he did not really do anything everyone would define as racist. And with that example I just wanted to say that, like that of course he does not do something like this.

First of all I really dislike how media has hijacked the term antifa after Chrlottesville, that group I would have defined as black bloc. That being said I completely disagree with what you say, the two sides and actions are not comparable, both by actual actions and ideology. Actions: destroying property (antifa) versus killing on purpose (neo-nazi); ideology: end to capitalist society (whatever that means) and anarchy (again whatever that means) versus genocide of everyone different...

Thw whole NFL thing, I never understood anthems nor pieces of cloth called flags. But for a lot of people it seems very important. So what more peaceful protest than kneeling and not singing can you have? And what is wrong with a highly paid guy fighting for the underdogs in a peaceful way? He has way more impact and no violence involved at all. But ok, I give you that it is not racist per se.  But I wonder whether the reaction would have been equally strong if it was a white NFL-player...

I believe it is way more important to not disrespect any person rather than a flag and an anthem. A person is real, a flag and anthem is a symbol of a country.


Being for secure borders is not racist agreed. Building a wall is pointless though. And in in order to get the wall through force a gov. shutdown with homeland security one of the affected departments it just stupid and a paradox.



 



#11 montgomery

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:05 PM

The question is, What evidence? Jealous lefties often call him Racist: Have yet to see evidence for it. He's definatly against illegals, but that's not a race. He's talked widely about cad culture, culture != race... So there's that.
I'm curious about the daily self contradiction, that seems like hyperbole? I mean, slander like that is kinda funny.

Trump has provided lots of evidence to show that he's a racist. The Obama birtherism is a prime example. But it could be that Trump wants to be seen as a racist in order to please a big part of his base of support who are unabashedly racists. He may not be a duck but he goes to a great deal of trouble to quack like a duck. He's  been able to convince the rest of the world that he's a duck (racist) so maybe that qualifies him. 

 

There's a real and great tendency for many Americans to deny racist feeling out of hand but it's not selling to we outside the US. Indeed, I and I suggest many others see America's biggest political problem as being based on racism. Trump has in my opinion capitalized on those feelings.

 

Trump's politics, being honestly him or manufactured for his cause, I would suggest doesn't allow him to escape the narcissist label or perhaps the psychopath label. In particular, the tendency of a psychopath to ignore the feelings and wellbeing of others. I anxiously await the professional opinions?



#12 OceanBreeze

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:10 PM

Oceanbreeze.

I believe them to be true because there are too many to be just made up. And yeah it is true that I do not like him. But if they were all false and only for defamation then wouldn't he have won lots of anti-defamation cases by now, no?.

You misundersstod me where I said the thing about beating up a black woman: it was referring to Gahd's comment that he did not really do anything everyone would define as racist. And with that example I just wanted to say that, like that of course he does not do something like this.

First of all I really dislike how media has hijacked the term antifa after Chrlottesville, that group I would have defined as black bloc. That being said I completely disagree with what you say, the two sides and actions are not comparable, both by actual actions and ideology. Actions: destroying property (antifa) versus killing on purpose (neo-nazi); ideology: end to capitalist society (whatever that means) and anarchy (again whatever that means) versus genocide of everyone different...

Thw whole NFL thing, I never understood anthems nor pieces of cloth called flags. But for a lot of people it seems very important. So what more peaceful protest than kneeling and not singing can you have? And what is wrong with a highly paid guy fighting for the underdogs in a peaceful way? He has way more impact and no violence involved at all. But ok, I give you that it is not racist per se.  But I wonder whether the reaction would have been equally strong if it was a white NFL-player...

I believe it is way more important to not disrespect any person rather than a flag and an anthem. A person is real, a flag and anthem is a symbol of a country.


Being for secure borders is not racist agreed. Building a wall is pointless though. And in in order to get the wall through force a gov. shutdown with homeland security one of the affected departments it just stupid and a paradox.



 

 

 

I agree with some of your points but not all.

 

Different opinions is healthy.

 

I do not like Trump, so won't get into a big argument over defending him.

 

I am a conservative and a military veteran so I have strong feelings about disrespecting our flag and especially during the playing of the national anthem. I used to like watching american football but now I don't.

 

That is really all I have to say because I don't see that getting into political arguments on the internet is a productive way to spend my time.


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#13 montgomery

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Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:16 PM

Oceanbreeze.

I believe them to be true because there are too many to be just made up. And yeah it is true that I do not like him. But if they were all false and only for defamation then wouldn't he have won lots of anti-defamation cases by now, no?.

You misundersstod me where I said the thing about beating up a black woman: it was referring to Gahd's comment that he did not really do anything everyone would define as racist. And with that example I just wanted to say that, like that of course he does not do something like this.

First of all I really dislike how media has hijacked the term antifa after Chrlottesville, that group I would have defined as black bloc. That being said I completely disagree with what you say, the two sides and actions are not comparable, both by actual actions and ideology. Actions: destroying property (antifa) versus killing on purpose (neo-nazi); ideology: end to capitalist society (whatever that means) and anarchy (again whatever that means) versus genocide of everyone different...

Thw whole NFL thing, I never understood anthems nor pieces of cloth called flags. But for a lot of people it seems very important. So what more peaceful protest than kneeling and not singing can you have? And what is wrong with a highly paid guy fighting for the underdogs in a peaceful way? He has way more impact and no violence involved at all. But ok, I give you that it is not racist per se.  But I wonder whether the reaction would have been equally strong if it was a white NFL-player...

I believe it is way more important to not disrespect any person rather than a flag and an anthem. A person is real, a flag and anthem is a symbol of a country.


Being for secure borders is not racist agreed. Building a wall is pointless though. And in in order to get the wall through force a gov. shutdown with homeland security one of the affected departments it just stupid and a paradox.

 

[/quote]



 

It's not possible to put politics aside obviously. But that doesn't hide the fact that it's absolutely outrageous that anyone would try to claim that Trump hasn't at least tried to paint himself as a racist. But as I said in a previous post, that may be because he's manuractured that impression to deliberately impress the large racist faction in his base.

 

One of the most telling and crass demonstrations of Trump's personality was when he threw the paper towels or t.p. to the crowd in Puerto Rico. I wonder if anybody noticed the evil crassness displayed in that?


Edited by montgomery, 17 January 2019 - 12:18 PM.


#14 sanctus

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 03:57 PM

Your choice Oceanbreeze, I joined this forum for science but stayed for all the politcal discussions :-).


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#15 OceanBreeze

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 04:24 PM

Even the science discussions can get fairly intense but with a the help of mathematics, most of the debates can usually be resolved. Politics is a different animal, especially these days!

 

About the flags, we drape a flag over the casket of our fallen soldiers and I have served in the honor guard at a few funerals. That piece of cloth takes on a very different meaning in those circumstances. Liberals do not have to show it the same respect as military members but they have no right to disrespect it publicly. It just isn't right!

We don't throw them in jail but we don't need to make them center of attention either. They can stay in the locker room or not be allowed to play at all, in my opinion.

OK now I am really out of this thread. I think this type of thread is started just to troll people anyway.



#16 montgomery

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:15 PM

Even the science discussions can get fairly intense but with a the help of mathematics, most of the debates can usually be resolved. Politics is a different animal, especially these days!

 

About the flags, we drape a flag over the casket of our fallen soldiers and I have served in the honor guard at a few funerals. That piece of cloth takes on a very different meaning in those circumstances. Liberals do not have to show it the same respect as military members but they have no right to disrespect it publicly. It just isn't right!

We don't throw them in jail but we don't need to make them center of attention either. They can stay in the locker room or not be allowed to play at all, in my opinion.

OK now I am really out of this thread. I think this type of thread is started just to troll people anyway.

 

It's good that you're leaving; you've tried to turn it into something it was never intended to be.

I never expected that Trump's would have any real support on a science forum. 

luv from Canada.


Edited by GAHD, 20 January 2019 - 12:21 AM.
Fixed false quote. Please try not to do that. :)


#17 GAHD

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 12:46 AM

It's good that you're leaving; you've tried to turn it into something it was never intended to be.

I never expected that Trump's would have any real support on a science forum. 

luv from Canada.

Think a good chunk of that(unintended digression) is "reading between the lines" in a way that's projecting/perceived bias. I for one look at Actions Vs media spin. Actions from as far back as the late 80's show that Trump is quite far from racist. It makes sense too: Racism is invariably at odds with capitalism, and trump is hard core capitalist. Eg: if you refuse a service/sale because of racist beliefs, you just lost money.

Cultural hatred can be another issue, one often less curbed by capitalist thought. Certain cultures ARE just bad to do business with due to their cultural practices of deceit/thievery/poor-ethic in general.

I personally have seen many "bad decisions" made with poorly thought-out ethics/emotional appeals. I'm not the only one. 1, 2. (trying to avoid direct links to a sale in favor of a short hand review. I fully DO recommend you try to read up on it though, whatever methods you use :pirate:). The is a saying about this meant to pass on the wisdom in a very short and truncated way: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." Many of these types of decisions are perfectly displayed by Canada's current government.EG, others available if you look beyond propaganda facades...

Looking at actual actions and results of those seems a more productive way to examine things to me.