Is the "War on Terror" changing us?

[infamous]

Sadly, if I am right, which I strongly believe I am, then the Palestinians are incapable of peace. They will play peace, but in the 11th hour, just like they did at camp David, they will find an excuse to get back to killing.

Sadly, you continue to assume on racial and or ethinic grounds that the Palestinians are incapable, to use your own words, of any kind of peace. This assertion is yet to be proved and is a clear demonstration of your bigoted personality. It's becoming very clear that there is no room within your mind for anything but your own prejudice...........................Infy

[TheFaithfulStone]

Lol, nice hypothesis. I like where you are coming from. So good, that I don't want to be the one to shatter it. Anybody else want the honours?

 

I think you are beginning to wade into water that is considerably over your head Mr. "Palestinians-are-incapable-of-Peace."

 

TFS

[vnbalakrishna]

There were all sorts of terror eversince this universe came into being. But there is nothing like, so brutal and so calculated, like Islamic terror. This terror is like a cluster of terror bombs: breeding multiple terrors in one single blast.

How to eradicate this terror? US govt for being politically correct will softpedal this issue. I feel the only way is for some US fighter/bomber pilot stationed in the Gulf to do the 9/11 stunt on Mecca: the fountainhead of all evil. Once Mecca is wiped out the head of the cobra is severed. I think if mankind has to be saved this is the only way. There is no need to pretend to be shocked at this suggestion. One day this has to be done to eradicate the evil Mohammad's stamp of selfish and brutal religion.

[chill]

To tell you people the truth the world isn't nearly as "civilsed" as you think it is from you nice egalitarian countries. I have seen a mob burning a thief in Indonesia. Yes, he was only a thief... When there is a traffic accident, say between a car and a motorcycle or a bicycle, the person in the car is in extreme danger from being killed or at least beaten up by a mob. Inequality or a percieved injustice breeds hate. It doesn't occur much in developed nations simply due to the higher degree of equality, but I won't even get into that here. What I'm trying to say is this; the world is a big place, not all of it like the nice civilised countries you live in. You can't make assumptions about the good-will of other people like you do in your countries. Civilisation has a tendency to spoil people.

 

What sebby is saying might actually have grounds in some truth, but using the word "incapable" is rather strong. I agree more with InfiniteNow, that rather than build a case for the problem, it would be better to find a solution. What is the point that sebby is trying to make? Is it that we should just bomb the whole Middle East and get rid of these hateful people?

 

What is the root behind all this hate? That is what we should try to find out, and from there build upon it. I have never doubted that many Muslims hate the West very much, coming from a Muslim-majority country myself. However, I doubt this has to do just with religion; the hate for the West, may I remind you, is an inherited practice; first by the Communists in the latter half of the previous century (Sukarno, Indonesia'a first president who was known for his communist leanings, despised Westernization) and only later by Muslim nations. These groups have a high tendency for self-isolation, hence strenghtening social identity amongst themselves and defining the boundaries between themselves and other societies. With this definition of boundaries comes a clearer (stronger) definition of group interest and hence, inversely, increases likelihood of conflict of interests between themseleves and other groups.

 

As I have previously mentioned, it is inequality that breeds hate. And often, this inequality is percieved as being an injustice (regardless of whether this is true or not) and hence hate is bred. Palestinians think that Israel is their rightful home, and regardless of the validity of this mindset, this WILL breed hate. I have offered no SOLUTION, because honestly speaking I can't think of one, but I'm offering an EXPLANATION, in the hope that somebody may build upon it and come to a solution.

[chill]

There were all sorts of terror eversince this universe came into being. But there is nothing like, so brutal and so calculated, like Islamic terror. This terror is like a cluster of terror bombs: breeding multiple terrors in one single blast.

How to eradicate this terror? US govt for being politically correct will softpedal this issue. I feel the only way is for some US fighter/bomber pilot stationed in the Gulf to do the 9/11 stunt on Mecca: the fountainhead of all evil. Once Mecca is wiped out the head of the cobra is severed. I think if mankind has to be saved this is the only way. There is no need to pretend to be shocked at this suggestion. One day this has to be done to eradicate the evil Mohammad's stamp of selfish and brutal religion.

 

Hahaha, I like your sarcasm, dude. I think I posted this before, but I'll say it again. Terrorism is NOT EQUAL to Terrorists. You do that and Afghanistan, Pakistan, half a dozen African countries, Kazakhstan, all those Central Asian countries you've probably never heard of and Indonesia (which together come to around 500 million people) will all start a Holy War. Not smart. Might as well bomb Washington DC to "sever the head of the cobra" of evil capitalism. You're using the same rhetoric as terrorists. I appreciate your sarcasm, I truely do.

[vnbalakrishna]

A Mohammad feels there is only one god and he does not care to answer if that is so why did this god create others like him who have freewill of their own?. Obviously there is something wrong with his concept of an Islamic god.

 

The problem is not with god or religion. it is with one evil character who called himself prophet. He wanted to create an army of unquestioned loyal crusaders for whom crime would become a passion without a conscience. And who would serve his purpose of looting and dacoity and expanding his empire. These desert crazy guys were promised lots of water and virgins and sweetsmelling fruits to get themselves killed and to enjoy these goodies in "heaven." Thus was born a perversion that refuses to go away. Chill you are right 500 million cobras are waiting to destroy all that are decent and humane. Before the crisis becomes out of control the evil Mecca must be wiped out from the face of the earth.

[InfiniteNow]

Before the crisis becomes out of control the evil Mecca must be wiped out from the face of the earth.

Your venomous reply paints you with the same brush as any other hate monger.

[vnbalakrishna]

Your venomous reply paints you with the same brush as any other hate monger.

 

Is talking about self-defense being hate monger?

How long can the free world allow this Islamic primordial evil to flourish? Remember civilised world considers a fallen enemy with mercy. But not the Islamic evil. It shows double the cruelty to a fallen enemy.

Evil in whatever form does it come has to be destroyed. Period.:beer:

[chill]

There is something very wrong with the concept of religion altogether, and I'm not going into that. There is something wrong with the black and white view of Good and Evil adopted by everybody on Earth, and I'm not going into that.

 

Why? Because I'm not interested by how things SHOULD be, I'm interested by how things ARE, because only then can we build ways to resolve the huge conflicts of interests taking place in the world today, and saving as many lives as possible in the process.

[InfiniteNow]

Is talking about self-defense being hate monger?

How long can the free world allow this Islamic primordial evil to flourish? Remember civilised world considers a fallen enemy with mercy. But not the Islamic evil. It shows double the cruelty to a fallen enemy.

Evil in whatever form does it come has to be destroyed. Period.:beer:

 

Yeah, apparently the Jews were bad too. Who'da thunkit?

[infamous]

Your venomous reply paints you with the same brush as any other hate monger.

Agreed Infynow...........Amazing how those that continually accuse others of being unreasonable paint such a bigoted portrait themselves............................Infy

[vnbalakrishna]

Yeah, apparently the Jews were bad too. Who'da thunkit?

 

What are you driving at? If I can borrow your logic I can say your forefather once murdered my forefather. Jews are civilised. They have no osama bin ladens. ISLAM IS A CALCULATED EVIL WITH INBUILT SENSE OF SELF-DESTRUCTION. You cannot compare madness aka Islam with any other religion.

All religions are positives. Only Islam teaches to do the opposite of what others do. Man since immemorial worshipped the life-giving sun. The cave man was happy when he saw the sun after dingy darkness. He was overjoyed. And then comes a mad man who calls himself prophet and says no one should pray when the sun rises. All prayers must be before sunrise because others pray when sun rises. He then exhorts the desert crazy zombies to kill the nonbelievers. Someone somewhere has to end this madness. And as long as Mecca stands this madness will continue.:beer:

[TheFaithfulStone]

Someone somewhere has to end this madness.

 

I agree. You should start by shutting up.

 

TFS

[vnbalakrishna]

I agree. You should start by shutting up.

 

TFS

 

Sure. The truth is always bitter and it is very easy one can act like a cat thinking that the world has become dark when it shuts its eye.

[Dov Henis]

That there is hate in the world needs no further evidence than the posts in this very thread. If only so much energy and effort were spent finding the solution as opposed to building a case for the problem...

 

Dear IN,

 

- I suggest you modify the posts to some of the posts...

 

- And I'm curious about the meaning of 'energy spent...to building a case for the problem...' and if 'solution' here refers to 'terrorism' or to 'it is changing us'...

 

Wondering,

 

Dov

[Cedars]

To tell you people the truth the world isn't nearly as "civilsed" as you think it is from you nice egalitarian countries. It doesn't occur much in developed nations simply due to the higher degree of equality, but I won't even get into that here. What I'm trying to say is this; the world is a big place, not all of it like the nice civilised countries you live in. You can't make assumptions about the good-will of other people like you do in your countries. Civilisation has a tendency to spoil people.

 

 

What is the root behind all this hate? That is what we should try to find out, and from there build upon it. I have never doubted that many Muslims hate the West very much, coming from a Muslim-majority country myself. However, I doubt this has to do just with religion; the hate for the West, may I remind you, is an inherited practice; first by the Communists in the latter half of the previous century (Sukarno, Indonesia'a first president who was known for his communist leanings, despised Westernization) and only later by Muslim nations. These groups have a high tendency for self-isolation, hence strenghtening social identity amongst themselves and defining the boundaries between themselves and other societies. With this definition of boundaries comes a clearer (stronger) definition of group interest and hence, inversely, increases likelihood of conflict of interests between themseleves and other groups.

 

As I have previously mentioned, it is inequality that breeds hate. And often, this inequality is percieved as being an injustice (regardless of whether this is true or not) and hence hate is bred. Palestinians think that Israel is their rightful home, and regardless of the validity of this mindset, this WILL breed hate. I have offered no SOLUTION, because honestly speaking I can't think of one, but I'm offering an EXPLANATION, in the hope that somebody may build upon it and come to a solution.

 

Good Post Chill

 

When 9/11 was occuring I thought of the Arabs in america and I expected a carnage of sorts. I began hearing some reports of taxi drivers being dragged from their cars and beaten in NYC and thought, "It is begining". America is a country with 200 million guns, lots of beer, and those images were horrific. Yes, some people did take the course of killing, beating, burning, but with the potential for this kind of injustice, I personally was pretty proud of the restraint shown by the majority. The ability of most to seperate the actions of the few from the reality of the most.

 

And even before this we had the election of Bush vs Gore and the florida hanging chads fiasco. There are many countries in the world who cannot hold an election without having massive uprisings, even to the point of deaths of some of the people. Yet in the USA, with a significant percentage of the people doubting the results, we didnt have an eruption of violence.

 

But we didnt have the religious leaders calling out to the people for an uprising in response to these perceived injustices.

 

So what is the difference then, between this reaction of the people facing an injustice here and those elsewhere, that causes so varied of a human response? Is it the religious aspect that is the driving force in the majority of these worldwide incidents of terrorism?

[sebbysteiny]

Firstly, I want to say that vnbalakrishna DOES NOT speak for me. His views absolutely disgust me.

 

I would want to remind you vnbalakrishna that although I have spent many posts proving very srongly that there is a problem within Islamic society, IT IS PATENTLY OBVIOUS THAT THERE ARE MANY MANY GOOD PEOPLE TOO WHO ARE MUSLIMS. I have many Muslim friends who are perfectly decent people.

 

Or to use my above termanology, THERE ARE A VERY LARGE %AGE [>>10%] OF GOOD MUSLIMS TOO.

 

Your solution of bombing mecca is a call for genocide which I find completely repugnant and I would rather eat my vomit than stand on the same podium as you.

 

All religions can change and there are many other forms of engagement that can bring change that do not lead to loss of human life.

 

To tell you people the truth the world isn't nearly as "civilsed" as you think it is from you nice egalitarian countries. It doesn't occur much in developed nations simply due to the higher degree of equality, but I won't even get into that here. What I'm trying to say is this; the world is a big place, not all of it like the nice civilised countries you live in. You can't make assumptions about the good-will of other people like you do in your countries. Civilisation has a tendency to spoil people.

 

Chill, excellent post. I completely agree. The problem alot of you seem to be having is you get up from your comfortable bed, go to your comfortable jobs or whatever, think to yourself how wonderful we all are and how peace and harmony should grip the Earth, and then go to sleep.

 

The truth is, only a minority of the world thinks this way. And of those places, the biggest differences lie with the Middle East. But many of you call anybody and everybody who points this out to you 'racist'.

 

The war against terror IS changing us for the better in that views displaced by some of the moderators here which seem to me to be based on willful blindness, are giving way to views such as mine and chills. This will mean we may actually be able to do something about the problem. Up untill now, people have been trying to stop a false cause. I hope this will change as we get more familiar with the extent of the problem.

 

I am very desturbed though, that this will innevitably lead to a rise in opinions such as vnbalakrishna.

 

I have never doubted that many Muslims hate the West very much, coming from a Muslim-majority country myself.

 

Perhaps I should call this exhibit A. This is an extremely important observation guys, AND I THINK YOU SHOULD ALL READ IT AND ITS IMPLICATIONS.

 

It is only by talking to people actually from the region that I have formed my views. I would encourage you all to do so.

 

The one thing I disagree with you chill, is

 

it is inequality that breeds hate. And often, this inequality is percieved as being an injustice (regardless of whether this is true or not) and hence hate is bred.

 

I don't think inequalities are the villen. There are many many poor countries that do not hate. The hate in the Middle East is something far more than that.

 

Instead, I propose that the cause of the hate is the hate propaganda broadcast by Muslim governments. I know of no culture that can be exposed to continuous hatred day in day out without that hatred being widely accepted. So eiher Muslims are superhuman, or the cause of the hate is the propaganda, which I will post in later exhibits.

Sadly, if I am right, which I strongly believe I am, then the Palestinians are incapable of peace. They will play peace, but in the 11th hour, just like they did at camp David, they will find an excuse to get back to killing.

Sadly, you continue to assume on racial and or ethinic grounds that the Palestinians are incapable, to use your own words, of any kind of peace. This assertion is yet to be proved and is a clear demonstration of your bigoted personality. It's becoming very clear that there is no room within your mind for anything but your own prejudice

 

Firstly, I have not ASSUMED on RACIAL OR ETHNIC GROUNDS. I have DEDUCED on CULTURAL GROUNDS. If you can't understand the difference between race and culture, I can't help you. Helpful hint: One can be changed, one cannot.

 

There seems no room in your mind to accept the possibility that not everybody in this universe shares your values. You love life, peace, prosperity and co-existance. Other cultures do not. Palestinian culture loves death, jihad, myrterdom, and world domination of Islam (which they believe will happen after the fall of Israel, some time in 2020s if Hamas' prophecies are to believed. I'm not saying all Palesitnians share these values, but that is the dominant value in that area of the world.

 

So tell me this all those who think the Palestinians are capable of peace.

 

1) who is there to make peace with? There are about 10 different terrorist factions each one of which acts independantly. Israel could make peace wih 7 of them and still find their ciizens being blown up on a daily basis. This is not peace.

 

the problem is the Palestinians are completely incapable of forming a government capable of speaking on behalf of ALL the Palestinians.

 

2) The Palestinians would rather all die myrters than comprimise on their 'national rights', the right of return.

 

The Palestinians think that Israel is their rightful home, and regardless of the validity of this mindset, this WILL breed hate.

 

The only reason they think this is because they are brainwashed to think this. But this is the point. The Palestinians believe that occupied Palestine includes THE ENTIRE state of Israel. Until ALL the occupation is gone and the lands are returned to the jurisdiction of Islam, they would rather all die myrters to the cause of Allah. Obviously, once again, this is not ALL Palestinians, but just the positions of all Palestinian governments that they can possible elect, namely Fatah and Hamas.

 

I believe an interesting survey I saw just after the Geneva accords was that 53% of Palestinians would accept that document, which gave the Palestinians everything they say they want but the right of return. But the other 47% are too strong.