Is the "War on Terror" changing us?

[Tormod]

your inferring an economic view for cause. if you honestly consider this a possibility, i in decency would not respond.

 

I did, and you responded.

 

weapon of mass destruction in the hands of "terrorist" or dictatorial thugs is not going to be permitted, by some in this country.

 

But what does this have to do with Iraq? There still is *no* evidence that Iraq had such weapons.

 

One thug against the other.

[jackson33]

I did, and you responded.

 

 

 

But what does this have to do with Iraq? There still is *no* evidence that Iraq had such weapons.

 

One thug against the other.

 

you can go back to the eviction of the "weapon inspectors" by Saddam, which wasn't very smart and to the over through of his government. many people from many nations with and w/o tangible proof stated much more but no less then the Bush administration did prior to GW II. even then Saddam, could have said come on in and check, but refused. the governments argument lay with non-compliance with UN policies, to start with. WMD compliance just one.

[InfiniteNow]

you can go back to the eviction of the "weapon inspectors" by Saddam, which wasn't very smart and to the over through of his government. many people from many nations with and w/o tangible proof stated much more but no less then the Bush administration did prior to GW II. even then Saddam, could have said come on in and check, but refused. the governments argument lay with non-compliance with UN policies, to start with. WMD compliance just one.

 

So if the police want to search your home for drugs and guns, but you refuse to let them, everyone should presume you have them due to your refusal, and hence attack you more ferociously? Strange stance that is...

[jackson33]

I agree, political correctness has been taken too far in some cases. However that statement seems non-sensical here as I didn't raise anything about political correctness.

 

Wire taps without warrants, the insistance of the president that he has the right to open and review any USPS mail without a warrant? These are not invasions of privacy?

 

no political correctness is either right or wrong. to place a degree on this is how it got started and then we all agreed to it. the use of the n word is wrong and i oppose it, but just think what all else is now PC...

 

yes, if the security of the nation is at stake, he and his administration can take every right is needs to, with my gratitude. the phone calls were from certain persons outside the US calling a person in the US. if this saved one life, would you deny this life so you could talk with OBL in private??? the mail thing is not currently active. they do have some required obligation and i would hope they enforce what is not legal to mail. narcotics, certain porn and a multitude of propaganda...

[Tormod]

you can go back to the eviction of the "weapon inspectors" by Saddam, which wasn't very smart and to the over through of his government. many people from many nations with and w/o tangible proof stated much more but no less then the Bush administration did prior to GW II. even then Saddam, could have said come on in and check, but refused. the governments argument lay with non-compliance with UN policies, to start with. WMD compliance just one.

 

Moot points. There was no evidence, yet this was used as the main reason to go to war against Iraq. The trigger was 9/11, but the machinery was in place long before then.

 

I urge you to take a less fundamentalist stand in this issue. You come forth as slightly die-hard when it comes to pro-American stands without regard for opposing views. I thought America was about democracy. Is it then not okay to criticise the actions of the American government?

 

This is of course a strawman argument so don't bother replying. I just wanted to point it out.

[jackson33]

So if the police want to search your home for drugs and guns, but you refuse to let them, everyone should presume you have them due to your refusal, and hence attack you more ferociously? Strange stance that is...

 

thats not the way it works. if law enforcement thinks i have drugs, get a signed warrant, they don't need permission and can do what ever required to enforce that warrant. this by the way includes physical harm to me, even death.

 

as to the legal aspect, that refusal will get you a conviction in court. ask any practicing attorney...police will try this, when evidence is to weak for a warrant.

[jackson33]

Yet your stance appears to be that it was the business of the USA to become involved in Iraq??

We were not directly involved. There was no ally that went in which we then followed into battle.

 

N.K. on the other hand, threatens S.K. with its behavior. It is an ally of China, so I don't see China taking care of the situation. More likely it will fall upon Japan since they are directly affected as well.

 

However, we are moving off topic.

 

How has terrorism changed us?

Me personally, not much. However, I believe governments are using fear as a method of control. And due to this, individual rights are being eroded in the effort to be more secure.

Ben Franklin would be spinning in his grave.

 

you have reasoned and toned down.

 

since i question the principle of waring a non entity, i can question the powers needed as well. the powers of government in times of a real war, however are well spelled out.

 

my concern is over reaction or changing to much as a nation. i see the changes and those coming that are over reactions. if one person for whatever reason gets into a shopping mall with whatever and succeeds, the reactions would be more destructive than 9/11. thats my fear...

[Tormod]

Sounds like a perfectly good police state, then.

[PsyCho]

this was preceded and has been seceded by events outside the territory we protect, but its the US duty by self decree to help those that cannot help themselves. the "war on terror" changed the passive attitude of most the earths population.

 

.........Er... Simply no, go sit at the back of the class, try reading something you haven't been fed, and see below...

 

no we support no terrorist group, in any manner. they are generally funded by groups that would prefer a socialistic world, based on one religion in total control of the people, especially those females. currently these people live in Saudi Arabia, Iran and segmented groups of almost every nation. the concept itself of these people are self motivated in the insecurity of a lifestyle a thousand years old and for reasons even older. the modern concept are free peoples (all races and religions, especially women) is totally contrary.

 

where i live people don't fear government, they in fact will take issue with the people involved. they all can go to the store, go to school and none fear day to day existence under the thumb of a man, a theology or the leader of that. by law they are free to leave authority that becomes overbearing to the concept of the rest.

 

Jackson your post smacks of ignorance to the verge of racism :hihi: . Why do you think the US knew about Iraqs WMDs? Because you guys supplied them to Iraq in the 1980s :doh: . How did Iraq obtain the capibility to make biological weapons? Because the US, Britian, Italy and France all had a hand in helping Iraqs new leader come to power, and making him stable within that region, and importantly supplying the materials and intelligence necessary (whoops huh). This is no secret and the documents are freely available. Infact your intelligence agencies (particularly CIA) provide great (and now declassified) documents that chart all this and soooo much more. All the records are there, and if we're gonna talk about the great "democratic" nation of America not supporting terrorism just do a little research into how Al-Quieda and Osama Bin Laden became established.....(hint he recruited during the Soviet-Afghan war "ironically under the auspices of the CIA, to fight Soviet invaders")

 

Infact if we look at American funded terrorism, genocide and a multitude of other war crime you can see the blood trail all the way to Capitol Hill with a history that streaches back over a centuary. Examples include Haiti, Cuba, Nicaragua , Guatemala, Vietnam, Puru, Venezuala and many others... Most supposedly "undemocratic" countries being helped on there way to "democracy" (which of course is NOT the same as our democracy whatever you may think) and a few thousand innocent lives here and there never hurt anyone, might as well throw in an ethnic clensing or two to keep the puppet people subdued..

 

As long as the voting public doen't know we'll dress it up with semantics and make it look like we are the knights in shining armour. And damned it keeps labour cheap which is what's important in this every man for himself "unsocialist" attitude. Who cares if some people can't afford to eat, drink or survive, just as long as I can be successful, afford a nice pair of Nikes,Gap Clothing possibly an SUV then it doesn't really matter... Does it?

 

To be frank, it does, it really does... Now to the point: How is the War on Terrorism changing us:

 

1) We are becoming more docile, wrapped in paranoia and fear we feel that the FACTs will come from our established authorities without being bothered to critically appraise (or even look beyond) what THEY are doing or what THEY are telling us, in fact it is dangerous to critisise them because we are at war with terror.

 

2) Related to 1, we seem so much happier now days to throw away any civil rights we happen to have (rather had); Hell, I'm sure you'll be much safer with the government having you tabbed, indexed and monitored 24 hours a day. UK is going a similar way to the US but I'll be damned if I'm ever giving over my fingerprints unless I do something illegal in which case I FOREFIT my right to privacy!!! As for DNA... The government can take their national crime database and shove it up there cavernous, oversized, satan raped, pile hanging A** (see, it could have been so rude..)..... I don't think I'll be coming to the US any time soon seeing as the minute I enter the county all 10 of my pinkies will be printed and submitted to the FBI for use in their war on terror.

(and of course finger prints are 100% accurate with ~7 billion individuals living on this planet..)

 

(actually, if your interested... fingerprints are between 90-95% accurate - More people, more false positives, guilty until proven innocent)

 

3) We are happy to be ruled by an elite who is happy to see 7 million of their population in ABSOLUTE poverty, who will sell your rights to the cheapest bidder, and dispose of all those inconvenient civil liberties and socialist protective networks that looks out for you. Who, if your face doesn't fit, make you a SUB--STANDARD citizen. It is now possible for you all to enjoy the complete lack of rights that comes with the worlds leading democratic country, who is trying to implement the imperial grand stratagy and shape the globe.

 

All of 1->3 is made possible by the constant psychological bombardment that the "war on terror" has provided the perfect context for, allowing the transition to be smoother with less public debate or comment....:doh:

 

.............Don't buy the hype, look at what's going on not the smoke screen your being told.............

 

otherwise continue being happy as a sheep, go back to bed and sleep easy in the knowledge that a rat in a big enough cage and will be convinced it is truly free

[PsyCho]

P.S. All the points made above can be validated and backed up with references (if so required... Might be a long post though)

[jackson33]

P.S. All the points made above can be validated and backed up with references (if so required... Might be a long post though)

 

no doubt, in a free society this is a fact. some one will agree, regardless of legitimacy to anything...

 

to the thread, we agree we have changed, for reason and purpose we seem to disagree.

 

on poverty, wages and rights; you are so wrong it seems a senseless, use of time to argue.

 

racism; maybe true and i prefer it could be other wise. the fact the terrorist, including advocates of this seem to be of a particular religion, i have little choice. since they profess death to all infidels, you seem to not be concerned could lead me to another racist thought. personally i find it very difficult for any person living in a free society to give credence to what are called "Muslim Extremist". i would suggest, no woman in this country would tolerate for ten minutes, exactly what is expected of those in most Muslim communities their entire lives.

[jackson33]

Sounds like a perfectly good police state, then.

 

any society in order to succeed must be based on the rule of law. no one person can be above this law and any person can challenge the law.

 

there are "police states" around the world and i find none with what i suggest...

 

its not possible to say i think the US system is perfect. by comparison it may be. what any one person can achieve with in these laws is not comparable to any other nation.

[PsyCho]

on poverty, wages and rights; you are so wrong it seems a senseless, use of time to argue..

 

Well lets examine the FACTS :doh: :

 

• The richest 1 percent of households owned 38 percent of all wealth.
  .
  
• The top 20 percent owns over 80 percent of all wealth
  .
  
• There is a measure called the Gini coefficient. It measures the concentration of wealth at different percentile levels, and does an overall computation. It is an index that goes from zero to one, one being the most unequal. Wealth inequality in the United States has a Gini coefficient of .82, which is pretty close to the maximum level of inequality you can have.
  .
  
• 
  
• There are 37 Million living in poverty*
  .
  
• 47.7 Million living uninsured
  .
  
• In US health care around 40 million people currently lack access.
  .
  
• 33 million Americans continue to live in households that did not have an adequate supply of food.
  .
  
• In 2004, requests for emergency food assistance increased by an average of 14 percent during the year, according to a 27-city study by the United States Conference of Mayors.
  .
  
• Also in this study, it was noted that on average, 20 percent of requests for emergency food assistance have gone unmet in 2004.
  

 

Why should this bother you... Well ask yourself how many does it take before a dangerous critical mass of desperate people with no other option takes to action. The social protective systems that used to exist have been successfully dismantled, it leaves people with few options.

 

:) :hihi: :doh: ;) :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:

 

And as for your "rights", I afraid old chap you have far less than your parents generation, and they are disappearing with your implied consent. The fact you are unaware of this is a testiment to the superior manipulation of propaganda in the USA... Don't believe me? Well..

 

• The USA PATRIOT Act and the easing of restrictions on government searches and seizures, including searches targeted at library and other consumer records. You should try reading what your government CAN actually do to you, and how much your life is on tab.
  .
  
• The proposed US VICTORY act (empowered the federal government to conduct secret arrests, collect DNA samples from anyone "suspected" of terrorism and allow the government to take away an American's citizenship. It also authorises the government to obtain the consumer records from telecommunication companies, Internet service providers and financial institutions such as banks. It allows the government to get these business records without a court order)
  .
  
• Restrictions now being placed on your freedom of information act.
  .
  
• USA now openly advocates torture, spying on its own citizens, and by a mere semantic switch can deny you of your rights quite effectively.
  

 

This is a small selection from an overripe orchard of possible examples...

 

Let me ask you one final question... Are you happy being watched, monitored, tabbed, and at risk of trial without jury?

 

SOURCES:

US Census 2005

U.S. Dept. of Agriculture, March 2002, "Household Food Security in the United States, 2000

British Medical Journal (various articles)

US Patriot act

White House drops long-standing opposition to torture legislation | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

 

*the official poverty threshold, as defined by the federal government, for a family of four was $18,250. Yet, most researchers agree that a basic family budget for a two-parent, two-child family ranges from $27,005 a year to $52,114, depending on the community

 

**As for your view of religion.. Well let's tackle that another time, however there are different aspects and groups to Islam as there are any other religion. Fundamentalism is an aspect of most religions also including Christianity (I refer you in the direction of Domonism), however this is rarely alluded to in the western medias coverage of this debate..

[IDMclean]

This was and remains a political reality for those that would rather put out brush fires before they become forest fires.

 

I just wanted to take the oppertunity to give a small lesson on forest fires. In the late 19th century several small mountain cities in california were burnt to the ground with many causalties.

 

This began a 70 year total suppression doctrine for the entire united states, particularly in the rockies. Now here's where it gets funny. All those brush fires we didn't let burn accumilated. The brush supply grew out of control, and then. Lightning. Huge forest fires all because we didn't even allow the idea of using fire to stop forest fires. It took nearly a hundred years for fire fighters, here in the US, to come to terms with allowing brush fires to exist so as to prevent larger (harder to control) forest fires.

 

How is this relevant? Well, like with forest fires, total suppression has one logical end. History supports this many times over. Revolution. if one suppress all these nations and people, crush them under one's thumb. Then before one knows it, one would be missing the arm that had the thumb.

 

9/11 would rank as a forest fire due to these suppressions.

 

Moral of the story: Tyranny for any reason is immoral and ineffectual.

[Dov Henis]

.

... Saddam's execution... is quite barbaric. Yet a large portion of the US population is reveling in it. Is the war on terror making us less civilized and more like the killers we are fighting.

Why was Jail good enough for Noriega and not Saddam. Do we really want to promote revenge and brutality. What place do these goals have in a stable, peaceful, democracy?

 

 

- I do not understand why/how the Iraq war/Sadam are/were implied to have been significant factors in anti American/Western terrorism.

 

- "War on (anti cultural group/nation/specific civilization) terror" is plainly and simply normal justified recommended human self protection-preservation attitude/process. It does not make us anything in any way like the terrorists we are fighting.

 

- To cherish our stable, peaceful, democracy ( and family and community ) we better be on guard and do whatever is necessary to identify/recognize threats of terror against us, prevent them and punish the perpetrators.

 

- Citizens' attitudes re all aspects of capital punishment have also been (and are) varried without any relationship to "war on terror". There are all kinds of people and of attitudes...

 

I think,

 

Dov

[TheFaithfulStone]

How is this relevant? Well, like with forest fires, total suppression has one logical end. History supports this many times over. Revolution. if one suppress all these nations and people, crush them under one's thumb. Then before one knows it, one would be missing the arm that had the thumb.

 

"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station!" - Grand Moff Tarkin.

 

"The tighter you squeeze the more systems will slip through your fingers." Princess Leia.

 

TFS

[jackson33]

I just wanted to take the oppertunity to give a small lesson on forest fires. In the late 19th century several small mountain cities in california were burnt to the ground with many causalties.

 

This began a 70 year total suppression doctrine for the entire united states, particularly in the rockies. Now here's where it gets funny. All those brush fires we didn't let burn accumilated. The brush supply grew out of control, and then. Lightning. Huge forest fires all because we didn't even allow the idea of using fire to stop forest fires. It took nearly a hundred years for fire fighters, here in the US, to come to terms with allowing brush fires to exist so as to prevent larger (harder to control) forest fires.

 

How is this relevant? Well, like with forest fires, total suppression has one logical end. History supports this many times over. Revolution. if one suppress all these nations and people, crush them under one's thumb. Then before one knows it, one would be missing the arm that had the thumb.

 

9/11 would rank as a forest fire due to these suppressions.

 

Moral of the story: Tyranny for any reason is immoral and ineffectual.

 

lets try this analogy; the brush fires were put out creating large amounts of underbrush. wood mills, paper mill and some others begged for this underbrush but because of the "Environmentalist" were not allowed to clean.

results massive forest fire, homes burned and increased prices for all the above. this is a little more accurate...

 

self protection or tyranny. is this the question? if any one wants to cut off my head or that of my family, because they or i will not bow to their or any god, then i will take either you choose as an option. my revenge didn't end with three little mass killing bombs...