How to talk to aliens

[Boerseun]

Concerning the question, this might be interesting:

 

The US dept concerned with radioactive waste, had to come up with a plan how to bury nuclear wast in concrete bunkers, and they had to put up warnings on the bunkers that would still be understood 40,000 years from now.

 

Some of the assumptions they had to make was that global civilization would come to an end, and that they might be confronted with such scenarios as returning to a form of "Dark Age", or even worse, going all the way back to the illiterate Stone Age. They had to assume a society starting from scratch, not having any history, science, or writing, and they should still be able to read the warnings.

 

They consulted such diverse people as Egyptologists for advice in pictograms, etc., and I still don't know if they're finished - but I think such research might be applicable if we were to create an intelligible message for a form of ET life? Maybe the best place to start to create a message to ET would be to go and speak to the Department of Energy?

 

Interesting...

[nkt]

...and the chances of us contacting our first ET at the same time they're contacting their first, is so remote as to be almost non-existent.

That's a good point. I hadn't really thought of that. Another possibility is that neither side have any FTL or even a way to get .5c speeds, and so it may not matter at all.

 

However, when entering a room with an afgah, your first task would be to determine what an afgah is, not to send it the history of the world first!

 

They might deliberately understate their capabilities, in the same way as most militaries do. For them to be utterly honest would seem unrealistic. I am thinking they will be motivated in some of the same ways as us. More power, pretending to be smart, getting what you want, etc. are all going to have an effect.

 

I think our first contact will be with a species that's utterly bored with upstart little planets, stumbling bug-eyed into the wider world of the Galactic society, totally awe-struck with simple, everyday things the ET's take for granted. They will not be one tenth as enthusiastic about the whole contact-business as we'll inevitably be.

Then hopefully they will have a First Contact section, who use some of the infinite resources the ETs have to talk to us, then! For one thing, they would do the same kind of threat assessment we should, right of the bat. Then they would decide whether we were a possible threat, and deal with us as they thought fit. That might be to wipe us out for being too war-like and intelligent, or it might just be to not answer us, or it might be to tell us they are at a lower tech level than they are. Sending us plans for a warp drive would be pretty low on their list. If we pestered them a lot, they might think we were a threat, and send us plans for a planet destruction device that looked like a warp engine, though.

As for resources:

 

Any civilization capable of travelling across the light-years, will do it exclusively for either colonization, or science. Hauling tonnes and tonnes of resources back to their home world, is logistically impossible. And even if they did manage to figure out a way how to beam resources back, why not rather swallow Jupiter, thats loaded with hydrocarbs, etc.? The Earth will probably be the last place they'll come to look for resources, probably only meriting a quick fly-by from their scientists, to take a look at our curious primitive technology.

So how is colonisation a good thing for the indigenous people (us)? And if something is valuable enough, it seems likely that some inter-planet trade would occur. If you go to a planet like Saturn, you have to get back out the deeper gravity well, as well as take whatever drilling/harvesting equipment with you, plus an empty tank to fill. If you come to earth, you can get refined hydrocarbons, pure silicon, purified gold, cut diamonds, and so on.

 

Much like the Incas didn't give up the mines to the Spanish until after all the gold had been taken (because why work the mine yourself), anyone turning up here would help themselves to the good stuff that we had already put plenty of effort in to.

 

As for how to get the resources back, that's quite easy. Use earth's resources to make the steel or whatever tanks. Pop some links on it, and boost into orbit. This costs you nothing. Chain them all together and fire them towards home (or an RV for safety). Repeat three times a day for 25 years.

 

Whenever the stuff arrives back home, it is free, the costs having been born by the first contact scientist-plunderers, and with more arriving the next day. In fact, it would make sense, since this would offset the costs of the exploration in the first place. Going to the moon or mars would be a higher priority if there was a whole fab plant for semiconductor wafers, or high quality steel, or whatever, plus some little "two leg" men, instead of having to cunningly work out how to make bricks out of sharp dust in a hard vaccuum.

[nkt]

Another thing I just thought of:-

 

There is no reason why, if FTL is possible, it has to be that energetically costly. Even high fractions of c might be energetically reachable.

 

If you could remove inertia from the equation, somehow, you could accelerate to vast speeds in moments with barely any issues (like not destroying your crew) and for little energy.

 

With an FTL device that bent space-time, like a portable wormhole or something, it might be like getting out of the sun's gravity well, but take only twenty minutes.

 

If it is a small effect that we missed, and they didn't, who is to say they haven't been joy-riding across the galaxy for years? Who knows, they could be steam powered spaceships, to drive the flux generator, or whatever, and their tech level, aside from the random FTL engine, could be years behind ours.

[aggiephoenix]

I have not had a chance yet to read all of the many posts to this topic yet, but I will.

 

It started out of a Shostak (Project Phoenix) quote. He's very knowledgable in this field of science.

 

I would also like to quote Shostak here in saying, "In our history, contact between a less advanced civilization and a more advanced civilization has rarely been beneficial to the less advanced civilization". I would like to add that this is between humans and humans, and we have no idea of what level of technology and advancement in human knowlege would lead a suitably intelligent civilization that could communicate from outside our solar system.

 

I would agree with Shostak that our first communication from Aliens would likely involve robotics due to the limitations of biological organizms in respect to accellerations and time.

 

However, one day our noisy planet will illuminate sufficiently far enough that we may well be noticed by someone outside of our solar system (especially with things like Mexican Radio).

 

I also don't think that sending access to the internet would be beneficial, although the apparently limitless pornographic sites may give them a good biological knowlege, I don't think we want this to represent what the majority of us do on a daily basis.

 

Likewise, there are many things in our understanding of nature that we do not understand yet, and many things that we have not yet been able to explain. We tend to find a way of explaining what we have seen, and justify those beliefs with the facts that support them, and not notice things that may not support them. I have seen things that many people would describe as alien saucers. I won't because I can honestly say I don't know what they were. I had the classic blue-greenish saucer shaped bright smooth surface curved object moving erratically in the sky above me. I've got missing time from those events.

 

I also work for a NASA Contractor designing hardware for the military and civilian space organizations. I've seen some strange stuff, but I've never seen anything that would explain what I've experienced.

 

If aliens were able to visit our planet from another, there are a few thoughts that I've got.

1) Don't you think that they would be able to hide their vehicles from us if they didn't want to be seen.

2) Why would we pose a threat to them, other than the introduction of new diseases

3) Why wouldn't they put us to work for them doing some sort of menial tasks Wouldn't we just be like trained monkeys?

4) If we were ants in the box, why don't they feed us? Our diet is a pretty simple one compared to other animals on our planet. We're easier than goats; there are few things we can't eat.

 

I don't trust many of the UFO sites I've seen. I think many strange people make up stuff after reading sites on the internet. I've seen my story as well. I've also seen things that are right on the important details and wrong about the little things. Eye witness accounts of an event are hard to trust for details.

 

Government conspiricies are not easy to keep, either. It happens, but not easily.

 

Let's hope that we don't get visited anytime soon. We don't understand the cultures on our own planet yet. Do you think we would understand theirs? I'd hate to anger someone with such technology. Imagine what the children of our planet will be playing with in another 50 years. Now think about what we'd be capable of in another 1000 years. In the past 100 years, we have went from horse and buggies to powered planes and cars. In another 100 years, we should be able to have spaceflight for the regular guy, and colonies on Mars and the Moon. A hundred years after that, we'll probably have made the solar system collapse and kill us all. Humans are devious creatures. The more technology we get the better we are at destroying ourselves.

 

We'd better terraform Mars, because we're about to outgrow our own planet. We could really use the backup plan. Support NASA and commercial space entities. It could save all of our planet one day.

 

Daniel

[aggiephoenix]

Getting rid of inertia isn't an easy task. Also, bending spacetime doesn't remove gravity wells. Besides, gravity is our friend. It helps us slingshot around planets to get to others. Hyperspace bubbles could remove us from our own spacetime, and put us into another, creating one isn't easy.

 

Daniel

[Turtle]

___Welcome to the Forum aggiephoenix; thanks for reviving this thread. You have a good post inasmuch as you didn't read the others & you have reaffirmed some ideas put forward & introduced some things new. For example you say "1) Don't you think that they would be able to hide their vehicles from us if they didn't want to be seen." I don't recall we discussed that.

___In that case, we are, to quote UncleAl, "dogmeat". Suppose not only they can hide, but do hide & have so hidden for millinia, eons, etc.. Dogmeat we may be, but maybe they just aren't hungry yet? Suppose these guys have not only technology advanced enough to travel here but also extend their lives?

___Scale up experimenter & petri dish by magnitudes. In this view, we may be doomed to destruction when the experiment's over, but at least they're not likely to actually eat us. :) Maybe.

[infamous]

. It could save all of our planet one day.

 

Daniel

I don't know if we'll be able to save our planet or not, but, youv'e done a very good job of saving this thread aggiephoenix. I must commend you for offering up such a fine first post for the membership of Hypography to digest. Very fine post indeed,........Welcome to Hypography, I'm sure you will provide us with many more intelligent posts in the near future.........................infamous

[Dark Mind]

...Unlike some of our newer members. ;)

:)

What?... What??? I didn't say anything.

;)

 

Welcome aboard aggiephoenix. Looking forward to more posts of the same caliber as I saw in your first two here.

[nkt]

aggiephoenix,

 

I never said that getting rid of inertia was an easy thing to do. I never even said it was possible.

 

What I did say, however, was that should something that allows FTL or inertia control or whatever exist, there is no reason why a more primative society could not discover it before, for example, the microchip.

 

Imagine if we had never stumbled across the transistor - the world would be incredibily different. We would still have nukes, the cold war, giant armies, but we wouldn't have the internet, GPS or cheap digital everything. But we did stumble over it, and from that tiny effect a huge, planet changing effect slowly grew over about 50 years.

 

Now think what would have happened if that effect had been the triboelectric effect, and the same thing had happened, only using light gates instead of electrical gates, and we would all be using light powered computers (perhaps)

 

What if the effect was a negative shift in the refractive index, and, after 50 years of refinement and tuning, it turned out to allow light, and then matter, to be moved superluminally? We wouldn't have computers as we do now, but we could hop to Mars in a second, while still being at the overall technical level of say the early 1970's...

 

I still say that we should take a little care about what we send out as "official" messages. Streaming 1/3 "monkey porn" to other worlds might just give entirely the wrong impression, in the same way as the 1/3 spam/con/scams would.

 

As for the physical format of what we send, a simple record is far better than a CD or DVD. The disc has a start and an end that it would be reasonable for another species to be able to see without huge trouble, the rate of playback could be adjusted such that the pitch was ok to their alien ears, and volume would be up to them, but again, simple to adjust. A series of beeps could indicate the progression through the disc, though they might be expecting a countdown, rather than a count up, but the needle groove at the center that catches and retains the arm would be reasonable to expect them to realise was the end. Even without anything but the most basic equipment, the message could be reformed. Even a child can do it, with a pin and a cup and something to spin the record with.

 

The other option might be something like an MP3 player with a speaker and with a long-life battery/capacitor and a solar cell. Any exposure to light starts it playing the message automagically.

 

As to the contents of the recording? Well, that's still up for debate...

[paultrr]

I think in general that this planet has been sending out a message or messages for some time now in the form of all those radio and TV broadcasts. Now, try playing a bit with that and think about what type of message we have been sending out and what it tells them about us.

[nkt]

I think in general that this planet has been sending out a message or messages for some time now in the form of all those radio and TV broadcasts. Now, try playing a bit with that and think about what type of message we have been sending out and what it tells them about us.

Hmm... Might is right, so don't come here without an army, or at least a bulletproof energy shield we can't hack in under a minute?

 

That the average IQ and memory span of people in soap operas, day-time TV and "reality" TV are rarely in double digits?

 

That we are all fascinated by the sight of odd things like the Tweenies, Teletubbies, and Big Bird?

 

:) :)

[Csongor]

Dont you think if we are looking for life in this Universe. This is neccesarrelly coded on the Earth?

 

 

 

 

Csongor Ballay?

[aggiephoenix]

All they need is one super disease that we are unaware of, or a method of terraforming this planet from orbit. Destroying a planet is easy. Destroying a planet in such a way that you only hurt the humans may be more difficult, but one good supervirus or genetically engineered bacteria strain could successfully wipe the human population off the map in a matter of days, leaving this planet for them. One little insignificant meteorite, containing a few of these bacterii landing in New York City metropolitan area would suffice. One kid picks up the rock and it's good bye cruel world. That will make you think twice about going outside, won't it? If it's airborn, it could burn up on orbit and enter the air we breathe. It could go global in a few hours.

 

We are a very noisy planet. It's just a matter of time for the I love Lucy shows to be picked up by a habited planet. Luckily, we're working on better propulsion units now. Perhaps when they receive our message, we'll be advanced enough to flee their arrival.

 

http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2006/01/mike_griffins_b.html

 

Sorry it has been so long. I stumbled across this page again just now.

[aggiephoenix]

Turtle. This is a terrifying and true prospect. There are things in the oceans, like UFOs in the sky. I've heard strange stories about landlocked deep water as well. Perhaps they have sent the dolphins in as spies? Just kidding. But serious, terrifying prospect that they could already be here. I agree with this conclusion. At this moment, we may not be of great interest, but perhaps as the shock wave from the first nuclear tests go out into space, this may be the key trigger. Perhaps hyperspace engines are the first trigger to get their attention. Perhaps the trigger is on it's way to them, and they just haven't stumbled across us yet. Or they are already here, lying in wait, and planning.

 

 

___Welcome to the Forum aggiephoenix; thanks for reviving this thread. You have a good post inasmuch as you didn't read the others & you have reaffirmed some ideas put forward & introduced some things new. For example you say "1) Don't you think that they would be able to hide their vehicles from us if they didn't want to be seen." I don't recall we discussed that.

___In that case, we are, to quote UncleAl, "dogmeat". Suppose not only they can hide, but do hide & have so hidden for millinia, eons, etc.. Dogmeat we may be, but maybe they just aren't hungry yet? Suppose these guys have not only technology advanced enough to travel here but also extend their lives?

___Scale up experimenter & petri dish by magnitudes. In this view, we may be doomed to destruction when the experiment's over, but at least they're not likely to actually eat us. :rainbow: Maybe.

[Abi]

As opposed to aliens showing up from somewhere off-Earth...isn't more likely that they are indigenous..."inhabiting" a part of the electro-magnetic spectrum that is not visible to us?

[Tormod]

As opposed to aliens showing up from somewhere off-Earth...isn't more likely that they are indigenous..."inhabiting" a part of the electro-magnetic spectrum that is not visible to us?

 

First of all it would mean they are not "alien" (as in "extra-terrestrial") and second we would be able to detect them using other kinds of radiation. You can't inhabit the electromagnetic spectrum... :cocktail:

[Abi]

Re: "alien"...yes, I know. I had originally used quotes around the word alien and then deleted them as extraneous as indigenous covered that point further on.

 

 

Re: "second we would be able to detect them using other kinds of radiation"

 

...if we were looking...

 

 

Re: "You can't inhabit the electromagnetic spectrum..."

 

Obviously...hence the quotation marks around inhabiting.