Islamic Terror, brainwashing, new thoughts.

[HydrogenBond]

A while back the Pope quoted someone who said that the unique thing the Islamic religion brought to the religious table was connected to certain beliefs in religious violence. Like any culture that has pride in itself, many will flaunt their unique cutural accomplishments. Maybe this unique accomplishment creates a propensity toward extremism.

 

I have friends who are Irish. The Irish are often stereo-typed for drinking, partying and fighting (friendly brawls). Many of these friends worked hard in their youths maintaining their percieved cultural reputation. They took a certain pride in being able to drink most under the table and never backing down from a brawl. Other cultures may look at this is terrible behavior, but the Irish are noted for having fun and don't want to disappoint their working class traditions.

 

The Islamic extremists, often youthful, are just showing cultural pride, which in this case is often deterimental to others.

[ughaibu]

Southtown: Here again is the argument that Sebbysteiny claims is the manace:

"Think what a moderate Muslim might think if he is chosing between extremism and moderation and he considers the Iraq war. That will push him over the edge."

1) this "argument" is couched in the third person, if it were to function as a "manace" it's effect would be to promote fear of Islamic extremism, not extremism itself, in order to promote extremism it would need to be couched in the second person.

2) in order to be a menace this argument would need to be hypnotically implanted and reinforced, yet nothing has been presented to demonstrate that this is the case.

 

The major premise of Sebbysteiny's argument is false, his back-up demonstration of this premise with so called hynotic suggestions also fails. In fact, statements like, "everybody on this sight thinks your being incredibly stupid" and "it is clear to all that the argument is legitimate" aren't hypnotic suggestions, they come under the class of fallacies of reasoning. Add to this the further logical fallacies elucidated by Buffy and it's clear that all Sebbysteiny has acheived is a masterpiece of vacuity.

[Southtown]

1) this "argument" is couched in the third person, if it were to function as a "manace" it's effect would be to promote fear of Islamic extremism, not extremism itself, in order to promote extremism it would need to be couched in the second person.

I have no idea what you're saying here. If you mean the case-specific details are required to support the claim, I'd agree. But I don't doubt that some can be provided.

 

2) in order to be a menace this argument would need to be hypnotically implanted and reinforced, yet nothing has been presented to demonstrate that this is the case.

I disagree. The power of suggestion is fairly well studied.

 

The major premise of Sebbysteiny's argument is false, his back-up demonstration of this premise with so called hynotic suggestions also fails. In fact, statements like, "everybody on this sight thinks your being incredibly stupid" and "it is clear to all that the argument is legitimate" aren't hypnotic suggestions, they come under the class of fallacies of reasoning.

But it is still suggestive, although not post-hypnotic.

 

Add to this the further logical fallacies elucidated by Buffy and it's clear that all Sebbysteiny has acheived is a masterpiece of vacuity.

That's harsh.

[ughaibu]

If I say to you "you are stupid" it is simply a statement, if I say to you "some people might think you are stupid" it is again simply a statement, there is no hypnotic effect. Suggestibility is not a factor in Sebbysteiny's scenario any more than it is if I say "peppermint is the most delicious flavour of ice cream", these are simple statements.

Sebbysteiny's argument refers to extremists as a 'them' ie other people, it can be conjectured as an argument that would induce fear of other people, in this case extremists. In order to induce extremist behaviour it would need to refer to a 'you', on the lines of "you will become an extremist" and it will need to be reinforced, even somnambulistic subjects do not remain under hypnotic influence for more than a week or so, even cult members or other victims of thought reform usually quickly recover with deprograming. If you seriously doubt this, go to the pub and experiment with the Sebbysteiny hypnotic technique, see how quickly and permanently you can convert people to any particular viewpoint.

[Southtown]

Maybe. But you discount predisposition WAY too easily.

[ughaibu]

An individual predisposition to suggestibility applies regardless of the content of the suggestion, it applies to exposure to a whole range of stimuli that people are subjected to more often than they are to Sebbysteiny's hypothetical argument. That's something one accepts as part of society unless one wants social interaction controlled and censored.

Sebbysteiny is not claiming unusual predisposition to suggestibility, he is claiming that people are being subject to hypnotic suggestion in the form of a specified argument. This is a different question.

[Southtown]

SS was suggesting that being a moderate muslim was the predisposition.

 

Censorship is overkill of course. SS brought up an educating mechanism.

[ughaibu]

The suggestion that being a moderate muslim indicates a predisposition to extremism has been adequately addressed by Buffy, it's nonsense.

[ughaibu]

Sorry, that should read "a predisposition to suggestibility".

[Southtown]

You're a muslim. All you wanna do is be a good, peaceful muslim and live life. There are people who 'hate' you. They hate you, the peaceful muslim, because they were attacked by extremist muslims, and truthfully, they don't know the difference. You then feel the need to defend your beliefs.

 

There are other muslims who are prepared to go to the 'extreme' for the same beliefs that you have. You hesitate because you're peaceful, but you're naturally understand. You wait and listen to more rumors of anti-Islamic rhetoric. There's media from elsewhere inquiring and discussing Islam as if it could possibly be inherently evil.

 

Now there's an occupation in your country. Things are changing. People are talking. You see bad things happen like bombs and gunfire. People you know are killing others. People you know are being killed. Predisposition.

 

Now you hear news commentators saying "Muslims are scared", "Muslims are angry", "Occupiers are greedy", "Occupiers are brutal". Why else would someone become a Muslim extremist? Except a moderate who feels threatened? Whether rightly so or not?

[ughaibu]

Why would mud slide down a hill?

It has nothing to do with being muslim and it has nothing to do with hypnotism.

[Southtown]

Because it wants to? =P

[sebbysteiny]

Ughaibu.

 

Despite being contradicted by everybody on this forum including Buffy, you still are sticking to your guns by denying what has been proven true beyond all doubt. But I woudn't think that people are starting to lose all patience over your inability to understand this.

 

I recommend reading the book Ross Jeffries, speed seduction, or any other NLP book. Most decent books include a large chapter on 'the power of suggestion' as well as a description of what is and what is not a hypnotic suggestion.

 

the placebo effect has nothing to do with hypnosis,

I agree that it has nothing to do with hypnotic suggestion. I never said it did. Though it is interesting non the less.

 

Further examples:

1) Peppermint is my favourite ice-cream

2) If you cycle blindfold you'll regret it

3) Let's get married

In any of these cases, is there any hypnotism? Is there any hypnotic suggestion? Is there any brainwashing?

 

No, no and no. All three have 1D communications whereby every message is sent to the conscience mind only. Any messages that get through to the subconscience do so only if permitted by the subconscience mind.

 

A hypnotic suggestion places a message directly into the subconscience while making the conscience mind look elsewhere.

 

1) This can be made into a hypnotic suggestion by saying 'as the weather starts to make you feel hot and sticky, you might find your favourite flavoured ice cream becomming peppermint.

 

2) This is a clever phrase that appeals the the conscience. I can't think of a way at turning it's main message into a hypnotic suggestion.

 

3) I reckon it's too early to consider getting married.

 

1 and 3 now send EXACTLY THE SAME message, but the attached verbiage means the signals are now sent by hypnotic suggestion instead.

 

"Think what a moderate Muslim might think if he is chosing between extremism and moderation and he considers the Iraq war. That will push him over the edge."

1) this "argument" is couched in the third person, if it were to function as a "manace" it's effect would be to promote fear of Islamic extremism, not extremism itself, in order to promote extremism it would need to be couched in the second person.

2) in order to be a menace this argument would need to be hypnotically implanted and reinforced, yet nothing has been presented to demonstrate that this is the case.

 

You once again cannot see past the obvious logical meaning of the sentence and notice the hypnotic suggestions contained within. This is procisely why it works so well. If you can't immediately see it, you can't immediately question it.

 

Criticism 1) It does not matter which person you put the hypnotic suggestion, it will still work. Having said that, I think you might have a point (by coincidence). The most effective person is either the first or second person. I can't remember which. It has something to do with the way people talk to themselves. I think it is in the second person.

 

And of course, the above arguement is used in all three singular persons so.

 

So the best improvement would be,

"If I were a moderate Muslim chosing between extremism and moderation then I might say to myself 'you should consider the Iraq war and how it is killing your bothers and sisters'. This might make me say 'you should fight back and join Al Quaeda".

 

But the original version still works effectively especially if repeated again and again.

 

Criticism 2) Again, look at the above recommended books.

 

If I say to you "you are stupid" it is simply a statement, if I say to you "some people might think you are stupid" it is again simply a statement, there is no hypnotic effect

 

On a logical level, and therefore on the level of the conscience mind, you are quite right. However the second contains a deeper hypnotic suggestion whilst the first does not.

 

Suggestibility is not a factor in Sebbysteiny's scenario any more than it is if I say "peppermint is the most delicious flavour of ice cream", these are simple statements.

 

People's suggestibility to hypnosis and hypnotic suggestions does vary (particularly if you are aware of the phenomina). However almost everyone has at least some suggestability.

 

Some people are better than others at not thinking about an orange penguine.

 

even somnambulistic subjects do not remain under hypnotic influence for more than a week or so

 

That might be true. My point is that these hypnotics suggestions are firmly entrenched within moderate Islamic discourse so almost all moderate Muslims have constant repetitive contact with the menacing hypnotic suggestions. That is sufficient for a very long lasting change verging on permanant. Also, changing ideas and beliefs is usually much longer lasting than changing phobias anyway.

 

SS was suggesting that being a moderate muslim was the predisposition.

 

I agree with everything you have said, apart from this,

 

Now there's an occupation in your country. Things are changing. People are talking. You see bad things happen like bombs and gunfire. People you know are killing others. People you know are being killed. Predisposition.

 

and that.

 

I am suggesting that everybody born human has at least some disposition to hypnotic suggestions. I am saying that only moderate Muslim discourse contains hypnotic suggestions encouraging moderates into extremist Islamic terror. Other cultures may or may not also contain hypnotic suggestions into some kind of extremism, but they do not encourage people into Islamic terror, which is the issue in this post.

[Southtown]

I am suggesting that everybody born human has at least some disposition to hypnotic suggestions. I am saying that only moderate Muslim discourse contains hypnotic suggestions encouraging moderates into extremist Islamic terror. Other cultures may or may not also contain hypnotic suggestions into some kind of extremism, but they do not encourage people into Islamic terror, which is the issue in this post.

I'm sorry. LOL So what kind of discourse are you referring to?

[ughaibu]

Sebbysteiny: You are arguing with tools that are also the substance of your argument, the construct is fallacious on two or three levels and self supporting. In a word, meaningless. I'm not going to go over the same ground on this.

[Buffy]

Now there's an occupation in your country. Things are changing. People are talking. You see bad things happen like bombs and gunfire. People you know are killing others. People you know are being killed. Predisposition.

Predispostion based on *circumstances* not something *inherent* in being a Muslim. That's exactly what I'm talking about in pointing out the fact that just about *all* Muslims in Indonesia are *not* radicalized by the same propaganda that is now easily accessible even there due to the media communications. That's *exactly* why the argument steiny is making is so abhorent, because he does not make this distinction at all.

 

Save the cheerleader,

Buffy

[Southtown]

Predispostion based on *circumstances* not something *inherent* in being a Muslim. That's exactly what I'm talking about in pointing out the fact that just about *all* Muslims in Indonesia are *not* radicalized by the same propaganda that is now easily accessible even there due to the media communications. That's *exactly* why the argument steiny is making is so abhorent, because he does not make this distinction at all.

 

Save the cheerleader,

Buffy

I'm obviously confused about what SS means. So yeah I'm wrong there. My little ideas are neither here nor there.