Islamic Terror, brainwashing, new thoughts.

[Turtle]

Ok, perhaps I am hijacking. But I spotted the phrase "turn the other cheek" in an article called "How to respond to Conservatives." The logic makes me ill. :phones:

 

http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/research/lakoff/howtorespond

 

The misinterpretation of "turn the other cheek" always leaves me in dismay. :)

 

Turn the other cheek does not mean submit; it means tit for tat, slap for slap the other's cheek.

 

http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/4650-sixhundred-threescore-six-decoded-3.html?highlight=turn+the+other+cheek

[Southtown]

Where do you get that, dude? In context:

"

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

 

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

" --

Matthew 5:38-48 nkjv

[Southtown]

You are. How cheeky!

 

Don't let nausea get in the way of seeing both sides, though. It can make you dizzy, but it will strengthen your character!

 

Ignorance is an equal-opportunity enabler,

Buffy

Yeah, it's just interesting to see biblical principles proliferate more in secular circles than religious. But then again, organized religion is just a club for people who wish they were spiritual.

[Buffy]

Yeah, it's just interesting to see biblical principles proliferate more in secular circles than religious.

Aw the Bible just ripped em off from social evolutionary memes, dude... :phones:

 

The egg was totally first,

Buffy

[Turtle]

Where do you get that, dude?

It's my own exegesis, dude. :phones: Whether it's Islamic, Jewish, Christian, Mayan, etcetera, religious double-speak ad nauseum is crap meant to forward the interests of those who spew it out. :)

[Southtown]

Oops. I had you both pegged for bible thumpers. =P

[Turtle]

Oops. I had you both pegged for bible thumpers. =P

;) More like knocker than thumper.;)

Triangular Peg In A Vesica Piscis Hole,

Turtle

[Southtown]

;) More like knocker than thumper.;)

Triangular Peg In A Vesica Piscis Hole,

Turtle

I would rep you again if I could. Thanks for that little term.

 

http://hypography.com/forums/theology-forum/8959-anyone-polytheistic-here-post140948.html

 

;)

[sebbysteiny]

Wow, look how this thread has grown :evil:.

 

At the risk of getting booed off, I will return to the issues :cup:.

 

Firstly, Ughaibu,

 

your sentence, "the real meaning, that you are pretty stupid for not understanding this, is sent by hypnotic suggestion to the unconscience mind that does not know the difference", is nonsense.

 

I really can't talk about this until you learn what exactly hypnosis is. It's not some mystical state that requires a mind magician who can control you like a zombie. People get in and out of the hypnosis state all the time in their daily lives. It's basically just talking to the subconscience.

 

And secondly, you don't understand what a hypnotic suggestion is. It's not the same as hypnosis. It's where you phrase a sentence in such a way so that the conscience mind is distracted but the real message gets through.

 

Need another example? You shouldn't think that everybody on this sight thinks your being incredibly stupid by not getting even after page 3.

 

If you can tell me how that last sentence worked, or stop disputing undisputable communication science that even Buffy has acknowledged, I will stop sending hypnotic suggestions quierying your intelligence, which you argue shouldn't exist. Don't hate me; it's tough love lol.

 

Right, now for my great pal and greatest fan, Buffy, who I love very much, though I'm not sure if it's her lively lefty personality or her fit picture of buffy that I'm attracted to. I'll have to get back to you on that :cup:.

 

1) Hypnotic suggestions work on many people if one comes into constant repetitive contact with them (see brainwashing thread).

Cool. I'll even agree that this does in fact work. I'm marketing professional you know.

 

Great. That was the hardest hurdle to explain. Congrats on your marketing job you naughty manipulative person ;). Careful guys, she knows how to sell you products without you even knowing about it. I will keep an eye out for hypnotic suggestive advertising within your post.

 

2) There are many arguments that are used all the time amongst moderate Muslims that are unique to Muslim culture. Almost all moderate Muslims are in constant repetitive contact with these arguments.

 

Racist claptrap. You take statements that apply to many different (I argue all) cultures and conflate them into honest to god hate speech.

 

Lol. As somebody who has acted on the fringe of anti racism, there is a huge danger in playing the race card when it is not justified especially when it is clear to all that the argument is legitimate.

 

But you are absolutely right. 2 can apply to all cultures just as much as it can to Islamic culture. This is what makes your refusal to agree with 2 all the more puzzling. It's like your disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

 

I'm giving a mechanism for extremist Islamic terror, so it's not surprising that my emphasis focuses on Islam.

 

3) Many of those arguments contain hypnotic suggestions encouraging moderates into extremism. It is irrelivent if the speaker does or does not know of the hypnotic suggestion. It will work regardless.

 

Ditto comment on 1). ... It works. So what?

This is where I expected you to say 'that's not true, there are almost no moderate muslim arguments that contain hypnotic suggestions into Islamic extremism'. Then I would find you some. You didn't. In fact you accepted it. Makes my life easier.

 

This was infact the stage that applies only to moderate Islam. In other cultures, hypnotic suggestions encouraging people into a different type of extremism or belief may exist. I think you will accept even at your most politically correct argumentitive that other cultures will not contain anything that encourages Islamic terror.

 

4) Moderates bridge the gap into extremism.

This point I've argued with you about too, and similar to 2) you are completely oblivious to evidence that counters what you *mean* by this statement in order to achieve your conclusion.

Another very puzzling criticism. Are you denying that for a moderate to become extremism, a moderate must bridge the gap into extremism???

 

step four is practically true by definition.

 

And it isn't surprising since step 4 must be the final step in any real working mechanism for Islamic terror. It wouldn't be a very good mechanism if it did not result in moderates becoming extreme now would it??

 

If 1-3 exist, 4 must follow.

 

Falls appart completely, because 1-3 are full of holes, and 4 really has nothing to do with them, its just you jumping to conclusions.

 

I don't understand what you have a problem with. I was making it easy for you to find the holes by explaining how the logic worked. It is a logical truth though. If 1-3 are accepted as being true, 4 must follow by logical deduction. Obviously it follows that if any one of 1-3 is false then 4 does not follow. You have argued that 1-3 'are full of holes'. That's great but that does not challenge the logic I stated.

 

So you have agreed with 1 because ' I know what I'm doing, most of my sales folks don't.'

 

You have agreed with 2, even though you have said you do not, because you say that the '[statement applies] to many different (I argue all) cultures' one of which must include Islam.

 

You have accepted 3: 'Ditto comment on 1)'.

 

And you have not challenged the deductive logic leading to 4.

 

Thus you have accepted that every step of the mechanism outlined is going on amongst moderate muslims and that it creates extremist muslims.

 

Great. We can keep this pretence that you disagree with me if you think it will help with your leftist chummies on this forum but we both know :cup:.

 

But if what I am saying is true, this mechanism could infact be true for all kinds of extremism in all societies. My belief is that Islamic extremism has its roots in the moderate but it might be that all extremism has it's roots in the moderate which is why some cultures extremists have a very different character to others.

 

 

I am also very pleased to see you have put forward your own alternative mechanism. It's the usual one adopted by left leaning people. That alone doesn't mean it's wrong though.

 

Hitler did not gain power just on the Big Lie of Josef Goebbels, it *also* required 1) the punitive and unfair Treaty of Versaille and 2) the massive economic upheavals of the 20s

 

Really? I kinda thought his charasmatic personality and his ability to capitalise on multiple scapegoats to the full was much more important than the particular scape goats he chose.

 

I also have not seen any evidence that the German population was extreme when they voted for Hitler. They became extreme after a generation had grown up under Nazi propaganda in a Nazi society [which as KickAssClown said, accesses the social alter which is the very best brainwashing one can have].

 

You consistently belittle all evidence of economic poverty and inequality in the Arab world, that while in many cases self-generated, is very real.

 

I don't belittle the evidence at all. How can I belittle the evidence when there is no evidence to belittle? Yes the Arab world is poor. But all the evidence shows that this has no link whatsoever between extremism and particularly Islamic terror. Continuing this line of reasoning is barking up the wrong tree entirely with potentially dangerous consequences.

 

I tell you what. Why don't you put forward your own mechanism. Mine never include economic factors as any step in the process. So why don't you put forward one that does.

Step 1,

Step x, society is poor.

Step 3, therefore ...

Step 4,

Step z,

Step z+1, moderate muslim bridges the gap into Islamic terror.

 

Please complete and explain exactly how a poor society contributes to a violent, suicide terror society. Why does a poor person become a dangerous person? This is, of course, the fundamental position of the left: that a problem within society has it's roots in an uneven wealth distribution. Whist that may be true for some problems, it is not true for others.

[ughaibu]

So, when the carol singers come around chanting "noel, noel, noel, noel" you become thoroughly hypnotised and "born is the king of Israel" goes straight into your subconscious "that does not know the difference"? Your ideas about hypnotism, or hypnotic suggestions, and "brainwashing" are naive and confused.

[Southtown]

Right, hence the use of placebos? :hihi:

 

http://motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/11/ma_565_01.html

[ughaibu]

Placebos have nothing to do with hypnotism or the assertion made in post 1, what's the relevance?

[Southtown]

The power of suggestion. That's how people enter hypnosis in the first place. Only SS isn't referring to the actual trance, just the phenomenon that causes it and that phenomenon's use in everyday language. And placebo tests are a perfect example of that occurence.

[ughaibu]

Southtown: Have you ever been hypnotised? It is a cooperative process.

Sebbysteiny has used the phrase "hypnotic suggestion" where no hypnotic suggestion is involved, likewise, the placebo effect has nothing to do with hypnosis, neither is the pacebo effect at all similar to the rather hysterical assertion in post 1.

From post 1:

'Think what a moderate Muslim might think if he is chosing between extremism and moderation and he considers the Iraq war. That will push him over the edge.'

The above argument IS A HYPNOTIC SUGGESTION FOR MODERATE MUSLIMS TO CONSIDER THE IRAQ WAR AND BECOME EXTREME. That argument IS the menace.

 

How is the placebo effect related to this?

 

Further examples:

1) Peppermint is my favourite ice-cream

2) If you cycle blindfold you'll regret it

3) Let's get married

In any of these cases, is there any hypnotism? Is there any hypnotic suggestion? Is there any brainwashing?

[Southtown]

That argument IS the menace.

And perhaps there are others as well.

 

How is the placebo effect related to this?

Actually it's not come to think of it. Whoops. Kind of the inverse actually. :doh:

[Buffy]

My. All that verbiage and you still have no idea what I'm talking about. :xx:

 

Careful guys, she knows how to sell you products without you even knowing about it.

Yes, I can. Watch.

Lol. As somebody who has acted on the fringe of anti racism, there is a huge danger in playing the race card when it is not justified especially when it is clear to all that the argument is legitimate.

You could have spent your life on the fringe of anti-racism and still be prejudiced. I know former Black Panthers who are homophobic as all get out. I have called them hypocrites too!

But you are absolutely right. 2 can apply to all cultures just as much as it can to Islamic culture. This is what makes your refusal to agree with 2 all the more puzzling. It's like your disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

This single line allows me to prove that you simply ignore that which does not support your theory. Hello? 2) says "there are many arguments ... that are unique to Muslim culture" and then you agree that they could apply to other cultures and then later you continue to base your argument on the basis that 2 is still true? You don't appear to have any understanding of logic whatsoever! Not A does not imply A! Hello? And all you can do to respond is say I'm "just disagreeing to disagree?" Do you see anything wrong with this picture?

 

The problem is that you seem to be unable to come to terms with the dichotomy between the notion "I am not racist" and "I think Muslims are all different than all other faiths in that they are all much more likely to promote terrorism." Sorry, that IS racism pal. What's heartening is that at least it seems to create some conitive dissonance for you when you say things like:

I'm giving a mechanism for extremist Islamic terror, so it's not surprising that my emphasis focuses on Islam.

which shows you trying to step away from what is so obviously racist to everyone else. Further, you can't even see that its the racism that I'm attacking here, because you try to set up a completely transparent strawman:

This is where I expected you to say 'that's not true, there are almost no moderate muslim arguments that contain hypnotic suggestions into Islamic extremism'. Then I would find you some.

You're trying to change my argument into some sort of pacifist "all Muslims are peace loving people" argument which would actually suit your purposes better rather than "Mak(ing) my life easier."

 

Bottom line: you are trying to make the argument that Muslims are uniquely susceptible to "bridging" from hypnotic suggestion to extremism. I am calling you racist and pointing you back to the *many* counter examples that I have brought up in the past that you refuse to address (e.g. IRA, SDS, and oodles more: go back and look dear).

 

I'll be charitable and simply say I think you're being intellectually dishonest. That's okay, just don't be so surprised about the way people react to you!

 

Just to show a few more to give you more evidence of what I'm talking about:

This was infact the stage that applies only to moderate Islam. In other cultures, hypnotic suggestions encouraging people into a different type of extremism or belief may exist. I think you will accept even at your most politically correct argumentitive that other cultures will not contain anything that encourages Islamic terror.

The old "you must agree with me 'cuz its *obviously* true argument. This is not in the least bit compelling at any level, because you continue to avoid dealing with the counter-examples.

Another very puzzling criticism. Are you denying that for a moderate to become extremism, a moderate must bridge the gap into extremism???

Again avoiding the obvious point of the criticism--that the bridging is *unique* to Islam--and disingenuously strawmaning it into an argument about the nature of "bridging."

 

"Bridging" by the way though, is one of those concepts you've really avoided defining, which is why it makes it so easy to pick apart your arguments. Its really quite hard to see why folks in Irish bars in Boston contributing to the IRA is really any different than folks at a Mosque in Michigan contributing to Hamas (arguably worse, since Hamas does lots of school building while the IRA was well known to be spending the money mostly on Kalashnikovs and C4).

 

So without a clear definition about "bridging" your logic is not in the least bit "obvious":

It is a logical truth though. If 1-3 are accepted as being true, 4 must follow by logical deduction.

And since you appear to have agreed that 2 is not true:

Obviously it follows that if any one of 1-3 is false then 4 does not follow.

And when you presto-chango go back on that:

You have agreed with 2, even though you have said you do not, because you say that the '[statement applies] to many different (I argue all) cultures' one of which must include Islam.

you expose the fact that--again to be charitable--you ignore the rules of logic to suit your purposes. By admitting that *all* cultures are susceptible, the very thing that you say is "unique to Islam" is not unique! By definition! Hello?

 

Again, you clearly don't like your racist conclusions, so you continue to hide them, but you still have a hard time backing down:

But if what I am saying is true, this mechanism could infact be true for all kinds of extremism in all societies. My belief is that Islamic extremism has its roots in the moderate but it might be that all extremism has it's roots in the moderate which is why some cultures extremists have a very different character to others.

So you disagree with yourself. Good! I have used my feminine wiles to hypnotize you into seeing the error of your ways! I told you so! :D

 

I kinda thought his charasmatic personality and his ability to capitalise on multiple scapegoats to the full was much more important than the particular scape goats he chose.

He didn't have any choice about his scapegoats. In fact your own theory seems to indicate that it doesn't matter what the scapegoats are. There *were* scapegoats, and actually you have argued in the past in trying to separate out how "Islamic extremism is different" by saying that they *have no valid* scapegoats! Again the point I was making here was that it *is* about the existance of scapegoats, and they got them in spades. And again, instead of dealing with the evidence that disproves your thesis, you retreat into strawman.

I also have not seen any evidence that the German population was extreme when they voted for Hitler. They became extreme after a generation had grown up under Nazi propaganda in a Nazi society.

Huh? Anti-semitism was widespread throughout Europe going way back, so it was latent, and it really did not become an item of policy pushed by the Nazi party until the movement started to spread in about 1930. Hitler was elected in 1933. The quite popular "Night of Broken Glass" occurred in 1938, and this after a pretty consistent build up of racist discrimination. I don't know of anyone who would call 5 years "a generation", and conversely, Islamic militancy has taken nearly 90 years since the Balfour Declaration to build up this "Muslim Extremist mainstream". That's well over *three* generations pal!

I don't belittle the evidence at all. How can I belittle the evidence when there is no evidence to belittle?

And there you have it. "There is no evidence that I'm wrong, so I can't respond to it." Did I mention intellectual dishonesty?

Yes the Arab world is poor. But all the evidence shows that this has no link whatsoever between extremism and particularly Islamic terror.

Huh? Poverty and lack of jobs are the top issues in all Arab countries. Their governments utilize "oppression of the Palestinians by Israel and America" to distract people from complaining about it or worse, seeking to overthrow their dictators (cf. parallels to "Democrats support Terrorists" in America). These governments are belatedly figuring out that by doing so, they are playing into the hands of the extremist dissident parties like Hamas and Hezbollah who get their power not by some genetic weakness among Muslims that causes them to be more likely to be hypnotized, but by *paying them cash* and *giving them jobs*. Hitler did the same thing! Where's the evidence that there "is no link?"

This is, of course, the fundamental position of the left: that a problem within society has it's roots in an uneven wealth distribution. Whist that may be true for some problems, it is not true for others.

;) This is a *neocon* argument! Call me a liberal, I don't care, its not a pejorative in my book, but its not really even true! I'm a card carrying Republican and always have been! :evil: Is calling my argument "Liberal" the *best* you can do?

I tell you what. Why don't you put forward your own mechanism.

Have. You're still not listening. That's okay, but ya really shouldn't ask why I keep slapping you when you just continue to say the same silly things!

 

A mind is a terrible thing to lose, :doh:

Buffy

[infamous]

Have. You're still not listening. That's okay, but ya really shouldn't ask why I keep slapping you when you just continue to say the same silly things!

 

A mind is a terrible thing to lose, :doh:

Buffy

Buffy, I gotta hand it to ya. Took another one to the wood shed for a proper spanking. What a shellacken!! what a whoppen!! You'd think that switch would be wore out by now. Ma Buffy, maken um walk the line......................Infy