The Truth about Religion

[Pyrotex]

...have view the new video's I posted at the beginning of this thread?

Well, I said to myself, just what was that video he posted at the beginning of this thread, and so I looked over there (at the beginning of this thread) and saw that it was The God Who Wasn't There and it was a link to a site what sells a video of that same name, and so I ordered it. It should arrive in three days.

 

But the trailer was good. And hair-raising.

[Abstruce]

Well, I said to myself, just what was that video he posted at the beginning of this thread, and so I looked over there (at the beginning of this thread) and saw that it was The God Who Wasn't There and it was a link to a site what sells a video of that same name, and so I ordered it. It should arrive in three days.

 

But the trailer was good. And hair-raising.

 

I ordered it as well, it is a very well done documentary. The producer has exposed some critical facts. I am very happy with the video.

 

JQ

[Dyothelite]

Dyothelite

 

I was just wondering, have you looked at the new video's I posted at the beginning of this thread?

 

JQ

 

Yeah the Christian Right makes me literally nauseous.... like my stomach still hurts from reviewing that trailer.

 

However, I don't let them influence my beliefs. I study World Religions and take all religions as they are. The fanactics in every religion.... the Christain Right, the Muslim Fundamentalists, etc etc. They just need to be ignored, unless they pick up weapons i guess.

 

I'm still a Christian but the Christian Fundamentalist bigot, racist, homophobe, war mongering, gun toting, save a fetus but kill a country, movement can b&^w me!

 

Yeah they just give me the creeps ya know?...... Kinda like watching the Muslims in the Middle East burn effigies and flags. ooooky.

[Southtown]

Others born of a virgin? adored by wisemen? healed the sick? suffer and die on a tree or a cross? buried in a tomb? risen again? third day? Care to share? Or must I save my pennies?

 

A few are givens. Plenty were crucified. Plenty were buried in tombs. I heard of a woman impregnated by the rays of the sun, but the others elude me.

 

And I was unaware that there was no basis for Jesus' existence.

 

Comments from Dr. William Lane Craig, delivered to a college audience in December, 2001: “From the pages of the Jewish historian Josephus we learn that Jesus was executed by Roman authority under Pontius Pilate by means of crucifixion. And according to Tacitus, the Roman historian, he also names Pontius Pilate as the one responsible for Jesus' execution by crucifixion. According to both Josephus and a Syrian writer, Mara Bar-Serapion, the Jewish authorities participated in the events leading up to Jesus' execution, and they justified this as a proper undertaking against a heretic. So in extra biblical sources, Jewish and Roman, we have evidence for the trial of Jesus, the involvement of both the Jewish authorities as well as the Roman authorities, the mode of his execution, namely by crucifixion. And these facts are fixed so firmly as an anchor point in history no historical scholar, no historian denies these. On the contrary, they are so firmly fixed they actually become a criterion of authenticity.” — Wilkins, Michael J. & Moreland, J.P. "Jesus Under Fire"

[Dyothelite]

Others born of a virgin? adored by wisemen? healed the sick? suffer and die on a tree or a cross? buried in a tomb? risen again? third day? Care to share? Or must I save my pennies?

 

A few are givens. Plenty were crucified. Plenty were buried in tombs. I heard of a woman impregnated by the rays of the sun, but the others allude me.

 

And I was unaware that there was no basis for Jesus' existence.

 

As a historian of religion (self proclaimed i guess) this is how I like to think of Jesus. Throughout the centuries in every culture there are documented cases of people going into seculsion (say 40 days in the desert) and meditating, and upon theyre return they began teaching a message they learned from their experience.

 

The idea that a Jew 2000 years ago went into the desert and came out fully enlightened doesn't take a stretch of the imagination when you see it was a world wide phenomenon. What I like to say about Jesus though is historically he is credited as being the most adept after enlightenment. I like to say "the best that ever did it."

 

If you compare Jesus story to Buddha's especially the temptations, they are nearly identical, but I will say Buddha had it easy under a tree in the rain compared to 40 days in the desert.

 

His story is not uncommon in history but his level of adeptness is unseen elsewhere in history. 3 years into his ministry he could perfom healings, even Buddha who lived until 80ish never was credited with miracles so young or at all.

[Abstruce]

As a historian of religion (self proclaimed i guess) this is how I like to think of Jesus. Throughout the centuries in every culture there are documented cases of people going into seculsion (say 40 days in the desert) and meditating, and upon theyre return they began teaching a message they learned from their experience.

 

His story is not uncommon in history but his level of adeptness is unseen elsewhere in history. 3 years into his ministry he could perfom healings, even Buddha who lived until 80ish never was credited with miracles so young or at all.

 

Let's talk about the history of Jesus.

 

The only connection between the Jesus story and Christianity is Saul Atarsis, better known as Paul.

 

Paul wrote 80,000 words about the new movement of the Jewish Religion (Christianity).

 

Paul never wrote anything about Jesus except for his Crucifixion, Death, and Resurrection. None of these events dose Paul place on Earth. They were to happen in a mythical realm.

 

All the Jesus stories were made up hundreds of years latter. Jesus received his divinity in 350 AD during the council of Niceia.

 

Jesus is a mythical character in Paul’s gospels and in history. There were prophets like Apeniatious, who might fit the Jesus story to some degree however Jesus is not a historical figure.

 

JQ

[Southtown]

Link to my last post

 

The only connection between the Jesus story and Christianity is Saul Atarsis, better known as Paul.

How does Paul connect Jesus with "Christianity"?

 

All the Jesus stories were made up hundreds of years latter. Jesus received his divinity in 350 AD during the council of Niceia.

That's merely when the Roman Empire officially accepted it.

[Dyothelite]

Link to my last post

 

 

How does Paul connect Jesus with "Christianity"?

 

 

That's merely when the Roman Empire officially accepted it.

 

I'm drruk on a mobile phone at a bar so ill keep it simple.

 

Buddhas words are still debated to the day. does that means he's a fictional character?

 

Every teacher has second and third generational students. Does that make the teachers views in valid?

[Abstruce]

Buddhas words are still debated to the day. does that means he's a fictional character?

 

Buddha like Cesar did exist in history. They played the role of God in their governmental structures they created. They are also documented in secular writings of the period.

 

This is not the case for Jesus. The Jesus figure was created to draw pagan's to the new and improved Jewish faith, (Christianity).

 

Every teacher has second and third generational students. Does that make the teachers views in valid?

 

I can only say new discoveries make many things in-valid eventually.

 

A teachers views today are preserved with different forms of media.

 

In 70 AD when Paul wrote his gospels it was between 40 years to 250 years prior to the mythical Jesus crucifixion, (depending which account of the crucifixion you subscribe to) ideas and stories do not as a rule of thumb stay intact when spread by word of mouth, and in this case say 40 years of repeating a story without any type of documentation, well you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

 

This is a prime example of folklore at its finest.;)

 

JQ

[Abstruce]

Link to my last postHow does Paul connect Jesus with "Christianity"?.

 

Prior to Paul Jesus did not exist.:omg:

 

Link to my last postThat's merely when the Roman Empire officially accepted it.

 

It was the first attempt to make any sense out of what is known today as Christianity or Judaism 2.0.;)

 

Remember all Gods are in fact, Man made.

JQ

[cwes99_03]

Abstruce. A commonality with posts on this website are that they require some evidence to back it up.

I believe what Southtown is requesting is some reason to believe your posts. I've honestly never heard that Jesus didn't exist until 320 AD.

[Abstruce]

Abstruce. A commonality with posts on this website are that they require some evidence to back it up.

I believe what Southtown is requesting is some reason to believe your posts. I've honestly never heard that Jesus didn't exist until 320 AD.

 

What evidence would you like?

 

Fact #1

 

No written text of Jesus exists prior to that of Paul approximately 70 AD exists today.

 

The Jesus story was invented by Paul in approximately 70

AD.

 

Fact #2

 

All the references to Jesus written by Paul were metaphorical, mythical gospels.

Paul never considered Jesus to have been a real person living on this planet.

 

Hebrews 8:4

"If Jesus had been on Earth he would not have been a Priest.":naughty:

 

Fact #3

 

Jesus did not exist before Paul invented his character.

 

JQ

[Edella]

The Jesus story was invented by Paul in approximately 70 AD...All the references to Jesus written by Paul were metaphorical, mythical gospels... Paul never considered Jesus to have been a real person living on this planet...Jesus did not exist before Paul invented his character.

Abstruce,these are all assertions,not evidence.cwes99_03 asked for evidence.

[cwes99_03]

Evidence would be hard evidence. Reasons we can see why you believe the things you believe. Even websites, while week in and of themselves because anyone can create a website and put it out there, are at least some evidence to back up your claims. Of course, if those websites are unfounded and don't provide evidence, then you'll still be asked to back up your claims.

 

Here's a start.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospels

 

The third one, if you note, says that there are commonly only 4 accepted Gospels and that their authors are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Thus I am inclined off the bat to deny your post because Paul didn't write a gospel. However, you might mean it in a more general sense as the term gospel means good news. In that case, Paul's works were generally called letters, as most of them were actual letters written to the different congregations during that time.

 

Furthermore as far as dating the Bible books, you could check out this wiki site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible

 

I spoke with a man the other day who told me I knew nothing about the NT though. He insisted that only John's works were valid and that they were the first written.

 

Now, while all the sites I have listed here are from Wikipedia (it is extemely easy to get to and well known), I myself do not rely too heavily upon Wikipedia as the sole source. I like to check their references at the bottom of the page. If those references are acceptable, then I accept those posts on Wiki a bit more, but always with a bit of doubt.

[Dyothelite]

Buddha like Cesar did exist in history. They played the role of God in their governmental structures they created. They are also documented in secular writings of the period.

 

This is not the case for Jesus. The Jesus figure was created to draw pagan's to the new and improved Jewish faith, (Christianity).

 

 

 

I can only say new discoveries make many things in-valid eventually.

 

A teachers views today are preserved with different forms of media.

 

In 70 AD when Paul wrote his gospels it was between 40 years to 250 years prior to the mythical Jesus crucifixion, (depending which account of the crucifixion you subscribe to) ideas and stories do not as a rule of thumb stay intact when spread by word of mouth, and in this case say 40 years of repeating a story without any type of documentation, well you don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

 

This is a prime example of folklore at its finest.:hyper:

 

JQ

 

 

 

First Christianity didn't even start incorporating non-Jewish people (pagans or otherwise) in their religion until years after it began. Half the reason why it became "Christinaity" and not a sect of Judaism is the Jews didn't want to worship in the same temples with the "unclean" non-Jews.

 

Second, Historical accounts of Ceasar and Buddha were extensive because they lived extensive lives. Jesus was murdered young and most of the events happened in a week during Passover.

 

Third Paul didn't write the 4 Gospels. In fact the authorship of those texts is a subject of debates. Paul was writing letters (Epistles) to already formed churches all over the world. His letters were to congregations of people who already believed in the Divinity of Jesus, he had no influence other than forming the basis for a central church structure. The churches he wrote to were already fully established.

 

The Book of John is considered to be last of the 4 Gospels written due to its writing style.

 

Also even though his Divinty was not officially declared until 325CE it was the dominant belief since the beginning of the church, only a few philosophers debated that.

[Southtown]

Fact #1

 

No written text of Jesus exists prior to that of Paul approximately 70 AD exists today.

 

The Jesus story was invented by Paul in approximately 70

AD.

False, and false. Feel free to read my post above.

 

Fact #2

 

All the references to Jesus written by Paul were metaphorical, mythical gospels.

Paul never considered Jesus to have been a real person living on this planet.

 

Hebrews 8:4

"If Jesus had been on Earth he would not have been a Priest.":naughty:

First, Paul might not be the author of Hebrews.

 

Second, false. Took me exactly three verses into the writings of Paul. You should verify your sources, Abstruce, before believing them. (Romans 1:1-4)

 

Third, your quote of Hebrews is odd. What version is it? All the versions I searched are stated in the present tense.

 

Fourth, there is more to that verse. The verse after it is also quite enlightening. And the whole damn chapter is relevant.

"

4

For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest,

since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law

;

5

who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things

, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said,

'See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.' " --

Hebrews 8:4-5 nkjv

 

Fact #3

 

Jesus did not exist before Paul invented his character.

Um... how is this evidence? Sounds like bold-faced assertion.

[Abstruce]

First Christianity didn't even start incorporating non-Jewish people (pagans or otherwise) in their religion until years after it began. Half the reason why it became "Christinaity" and not a sect of Judaism is the Jews didn't want to worship in the same temples with the "unclean" non-Jews..

 

Christianity was promoted by Constantine, the goal was to convert the pagan empire of Roam to Christianity.

 

Prior to that there were many different Jewish sects who were trying to reform Judaism. No writings about Jesus exist prior to Paul's writings.

 

Case in point. The Dead Sea Scrolls tell a story similar, almost exactly to the Jesus story, yet Jesus is never mentioned.

 

Third Paul didn't write the 4 Gospels. In fact the authorship of those texts is a subject of debates.

 

The Book of John is considered to be last of the 4 Gospels written due to its writing style.

 

Mark was written around 110 AD, Mathew, Luke, John where clearly derived form Mark.

 

 

Also even though his Divinty was not officially declared until 325CE it was the dominant belief since the beginning of the church, only a few philosophers debated that.

 

A dominant belief is little evidence for a conclusion.

 

Dyothelite, I am impressed by your knowledge on the subject.

 

It is not easy to sort all the evidence, to compile a logical definition to this very long tradition in our history. There are in most cases, road blocks to questions produced, when people ask questions contrary to the Christian doctrine, thus most are instructed to have faith.

 

JQ