Bible is word of God ...

[CerebralEcstasy]

C,mon CerebralEcstasy,some of us are atheists because we've examined scripture!:)

 

Could it be that you'd already had your mind made up, and that no amount of reading would convince you otherwise?

[IDMclean]

I read much of the bible, what I decided was that the bible alone was not the whole answer. So I have set to studying other point of views.

 

I approach the concepts I am introduced from as many sides as I can, being a easily fallible being.

 

I have keenly learned Religion (though not as many, as in depth as I would like), Science, and next I intended to learn Philosophy indepth. I am continiously on the look out for Religious texts that I am capable of reading. (in English). I have read much of the bible. I occasionally pick it up and read some more, but it is difficult to read from cover to cover.

[Edella]

Could it be that you'd already had your mind made up, and that no amount of reading would convince you otherwise?

I don't think so.I certainly could be wrong,and would examine any new evidence gladly.But as I've said before,the attributes ascribed to the Lord of the Bible and His actions don't add up for me.I am convinced an all loving God would not be so cruel:Exodus 12:29,Numbers 15:32-36,etc.

 

The same question could be asked of you.Would anthing convice you to drop your belief in God?Could it be that you have already made up your mind?

[sebbysteiny]

I've read this thread and I've decided now to believe in god. I was hoping you guys could suggest which god. I asked a Muslim friend of mine and he said that I should become a Muslim since the Quoran is a sacred text and it says Mohammed's prophecies are gods will. My hindu friend had a very different opinion. What do you think?

[Pyrotex]

Read Bible and its prophesies and you will see that it is word of God ....No man bring so accurate prophesies as is written in the Bible ...

Actually, more than half the prophecies in the Old Testament NEVER came true. Many of them, in fact, turned out to be completely wrong. However, preachers won't tell you about these. Or concordences or biblical propaganda. For example, several of the largest cities in the Middle East (including Baghdad) were prophecied to be destroyed and never lived in again. But they have been continuously populated for 2500 years. Wrong.

 

People who make claims about how accurate Bible prophecies are, have NEVER actually READ ALL the prophecies and figured out whether they came true or not. They just assume.

[Pyrotex]

Could it be that you'd already had your mind made up, and that no amount of reading would convince you otherwise?

Hello CE,

I was brought up in a fundementalist church, and I BELIEVED.

My parents wanted me to become a preacher, so while I was in my senior year at college I started studying the Bible even more intensely and giving sermons. This uncovered some disturbing things in the Bible that no one had ever told me about. So, in graduate school (2 years later) I finally decided to read the entire Bible straight through, cover to cover. I did this twice.

I stopped going to church and over two decades studied my way to being an atheist.

[CerebralEcstasy]

Hi Ed & Pyro. I just seen these and have been away from home for a couple of days. I just wanted to let you know I hadn't jumped ship when it came to the conversation. Talk to you soon.

 

CE

[cwes99_03]

Now, Pyro, which is it twice or 6 times in 5 weeks? : )

 

In 1973 I was in grad school at Mississippi State University. I attended the Church of Christ in Starkville. The congregation was in a turmoil over whether or not blacks should be invited to worship. It got ugly, with fistfights in the hallway and jeers during Sunday morning sermons. They discorporated and put the church building up for sale.

 

It was the beginning of summer and my class load was light. So, since I had started training for the ministry any way, I decided to read the entire Bible and take notes. I would solve the problems that had plagued that church. I had an IQ of 180 and total confidence. At eight to ten hours a day, I could read the OT/NT straight through in about one week. I read it five times in six weeks. And then I cried.

 

At that moment, I probably "knew" the Bible better than any preacher or teacher I had ever met. Before or since. I saw the whole thing inside and out and from every side. And I cried.

 

I saw all the illogic and contradictions and knew with a certainty that I could not put enough bandaids on that book to ever have any trust in it again. They don't make that many bandaids. I wiped my eyes and my nose and cradled my broken heart as best I could. It would take years for me to heal.

http://hypography.com/forums/71783-post97.html

 

Perhaps I haven't repeated it enough . What I said is that ACCORDING TO THE OFFICIAL POSITION OF ALL THOSE WHO STUDY THE OLD TESTIMENT, it is the exact word of god as dictated to Moses at mount Sini.

Oh, you did. Well, will you please fill my request to post where this conclusion comes from. I have never in my life heard a church give the official position that "the old testiment is the exact word of God as dictated to Moses at Mount Sinai."

 

For example, several of the largest cities in the Middle East (including Baghdad) were prophecied to be destroyed and never lived in again. But they have been continuously populated for 2500 years. Wrong.

Pyro, I know you and I go round and round on these subjects, could you please cite the scripture that you are refering to here?

[Pyrotex]

Hi Ed & Pyro. I just seen these and have been away from home for a couple of days. I just wanted to let you know I hadn't jumped ship when it came to the conversation. Talk to you soon.

Okay. Take your time.

 

In the meantime, I wish to post a researched essay I wrote 2 years ago. My cousin Freddy gave me a book containing a chapter on how miraculous it was that ALL the Biblical prophecies came true. I responded with the following: =========================

 

What is a 'prophecy'? It is a prediction of some future event. However, it can't be of just ANY future event. Predicting that the sun will come up tomorrow morning isn't a prophecy; it is almost certain to be true whether you predict it or not. To be a real prophecy, the event should be quite rare or remarkable.

 

The Bible is full of predictions, hundreds of them, most rather obscure and unlikely to be mentioned from the pulpit. Many of the OT prophesies take the form of God declaring that a particular city, nation or king will be utterly destroyed. What isn't obvious at first glance is that these prophecies rarely if ever declare a 'by when' -- a deadline for the prophecied event to occur. This is important -- it makes the difference between a miraculous prophecy and a mundane prediction of the inevitable.

 

For example, when the OT predicts that a certain king will die, it is predicting something that was going to happen sooner or later anyway. Big deal. If the prophecy had said, "die within one month" -- and he DID, that would be something. But an open-ended prophecy that someone will die is just predicting the inevitable. ALL the predictions of individual deaths that I found were open-ended, and therefore meaningless as "prophecy".

 

It's significant to note that most of the cities mentioned in the Bible's OT were desolate at some point in their history, either due to warfare and pillage, or due to changes in climate and the resulting desertification. The so-called 'Fertile Crescent' reached from Palestine on the Mediterranean Coast all the way to the border of present-day India. And we know from archeological records that it was fertile indeed, and received dependable rainfall. However, from about 700 B.C. onwards, the rains became less dependable, with large regions of the Fertile Crescent eventually becoming arid desert.

 

Any given city in the Middle East at the time of, say, King David, would have had a very high probability of being pillaged, overrun, or desertified -- if you just waited long enough. What are the chances that a great empire would be 'destroyed'? Almost a certainty, as we see from history. None of the empires of that day survived to the present. Few of them survived for more than a dozen generations. What are the chances that a great city would be 'destroyed'? Very likely. More than half of the cities that were in the Fertile Crescent became unliveable ruins when the rains stopped.

 

Many more cities and nations were pillaged and burned by Alexander the Great, and other conquerors. Even the nation of Judea, the northern half of the Hebrew lands, was overrun, and the peoples taken off to captivity. (The first Babylonian Captivity) Nations were being overrun, absorbed into other nations, and created (by civil war or immigration) at a high and continuous rate in early historical times.

 

The point is this -- if anyone predicted in 700 B.C. that a specific empire, city or nation would be destroyed, or laid to waste, the chances are better than even that the prediction would come true, if you just waited long enough. It might take a hundred years, or a thousand, but sooner or later, it would inevitably happen. This particular class of prophecy suffers from NOT being remarkable, and hardly deserves to be called 'prophecy'. It doesn't take a God to make 'prophecies' like that. It's like prophecying the sun will rise in the east.

 

On the other hand, the Bible contains many prophecies that have NOT come true. For example, Isaiah 17:1 prophesies that Damascus will be completely destroyed and no longer be inhabited. Yet Damascus has never been completely destroyed and is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in history. Isaiah 13:19,20 predicts the destruction of Babylon. If we consider this to mean just the city and not the empire around it, then eventually, it came true, several hundred years after Isaiah was written (although only temporarily). However, in Jeremiah 21:12, God says he is going to take the land of the Babylonians and make it perpetual desolations. This means not the city of Babylon but the whole empire. And perpetual means forever. This has never come true, since present-day Iraq is still occupied.

 

If you really want to evaluate the prophecies in the Bible, and if you want to be HONEST about it, you should make a list of ALL Biblical predictions. Such a list of predictions might number in the hundreds, especially if you took long, multi-verse prophesies and split them into their discrete predictions. For example, in the destruction of Babylon, Isaiah 13:21 says, "But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there." That would be four distinct predictions. You should determine in each and every case:

===Who or what did the prediction apply to;

===How remarkable (or mundane) was the predicted event;

===How likely was the prediction to come true if you waited long enough;

===Did the prophecy contain elements that break natural law or are obviously immaginary;

===Did the prediction came true;

===If it came true, to what extent; fully? or only temporarily?

===If it came true, did the event occur within a predicted deadline.

 

You also want to note whether or not the prediction makes literal sense, because some of them don't. For example, in Isaiah 13:21, there is a reference to "satyrs". Jewish interpretations of this conclude that it was an imaginary creature, an ancient bugabear.

 

Isaiah 16:11 says, "Wherefore my [God's] bowels shall sound like an harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh." What does it mean for God to have abdominal noises (flatulence?) for Moab? Is the author just being poetic? How can we know whether or not these words are to be taken literally (or not)? How can we ever know if this prophecy ever came true?

 

I know of several books where such a list has been attempted. The percentage of Biblical prophesies that came true in some significant sense is inferred to be between 40% and 75%, depending on how you split the prophecies out of the verses. Many of the ones that 'came true' would have come true anyway, or in any eventuality if you waited long enough; they predicted that a person, city or empire would die without giving a deadline. Even at best, that leaves a solid quarter of the prophecies which did not come true in any meaningful way.

 

For example, we have the prediction of Damascus' destruction above; and we have Isaiah 19:18, "In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction." There has never been a Jewish city in Egypt. The Canaanite language has been extinct for over 2000 years.

 

Jeremiah (3:17) prophesies that all nations of the earth will embrace Judaism. This has not happened.

 

In 2 Samuel 7:13,16 God says that Solomon's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt.

 

Psalms 89 says, "I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today.

 

Even the Bible itself is very clear that not all prophecies came true. In Genesis 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14, God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13 admit that God's promise was not fulfilled.

 

Not all the prophets were to be trusted. Isaiah 28:7 says that, "the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment." Jeremiah 14:14 says, "Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart."

 

There are also a number of 'prophecies' in the OT that aren't real prophesies at all. Most if not all OT prophecies that preachers say are foretellings of the coming of Jesus actually describe a current event or current set of circumstances in OT times. This becomes obvious if you just read all the verses around the so-called prophecy.

 

If you remove all the prophecies that "aren't", and all those that didn't come true, and all those that are mundane, what are you left with? These would be the real prophecies, the meaningful ones. They are few and far between. Personally, I could not find any, but I only researched this essay for three days.

[Pyrotex]

Now, Pyro, which is it twice or 6 times in 5 weeks? : )...

Good catch.

I dug up some old diaries I kept back in my school days.

I read the entire Bible straight through two (2) times in two weeks between summer and fall semesters.

I read it again, once, during the following Christmas break. After that, I stopped attending church services at the Church of Christ.

I read it two (2) more times the following summer (excluding Revelations), during which time I briefly attended a pentacostal Baptist church. They had no answers for me.

So, it looks like my memory was flawed. My diaries indicate I read the Bible (except for Revelations) five (5) times, over the course of a full year. The actual time spent reading was about 6 to 8 weeks, I estimate. And there were two (2) episodes of grief: a BIG one after the first two readings, and nearly a year later after the last two readings.

 

I seem to recall that I tried it again after I left grad school, but I stopped keeping diaries when I left school and so I don't know if I'm confusing it with the earlier readings.

[cwes99_03]

Thanks for clearing that up. : )

[cwes99_03]

Isaiah 13:19,20 predicts the destruction of Babylon. If we consider this to mean just the city and not the empire around it, then eventually, it came true, several hundred years after Isaiah was written (although only temporarily). However, in Jeremiah 21:12, God says he is going to take the land of the Babylonians and make it perpetual desolations. This means not the city of Babylon but the whole empire. And perpetual means forever. This has never come true, since present-day Iraq is still occupied.

 

If you remove all the prophecies that "aren't", and all those that didn't come true, and all those that are mundane, what are you left with? These would be the real prophecies, the meaningful ones. They are few and far between. Personally, I could not find any, but I only researched this essay for three days.

 

Isa. 13:17-20 -- 17 “Here I am arousing against them the Medes, who account silver itself as nothing and who, as respects gold, take no delight in it. 18 And [their] bows will dash even young men to pieces. And the fruitage of the belly they will not pity; for sons their eye will not feel sorry. 19 And Babylon, the decoration of kingdoms, the beauty of the pride of the Chal·de´ans, must become as when God overthrew Sod´om and Go·mor´rah. 20 She will never be inhabited, nor will she reside for generation after generation. And there the Arab will not pitch his tent, and no shepherds will let [their flocks] lie down there.

 

Jeremiah 21:12 -- 12 O house of David, this is what Jehovah has said: “Every morning render sentence in justice, and deliver the one being robbed out of the hand of the defrauder, that my rage may not go forth just like a fire and actually burn and there be no one to extinguish it because of the badness of YOUR dealings.”’

 

Notice that Jer 21:12 has nothing to do with Babylon, wanna confirm that for me? In Isaiah however, it seems evident to many people that the prophecy was regarding the city of Babylon specifically. In that case the Medo-Persians did destroy the city by fire, and no one has ever inhabbited that city since.

Current day Baghdad exists 56 miles north of the ancient ruins of that great city of Babylon. No one resides on the cite of the ancient city. It is surrounded by desert and the river Euphrates that used to protect it no longer flows around it but off to the west of it.

 

from http://www.crystalinks.com/babylonian.html The Babylonian revival did not long endure. After Nebuchadnezzar's death (562 BC), a struggle for power apparently went on among various parties and individuals for several years. In 556 BC Nabonidus, one of Nebuchadnezzar's governors, became king of Babylonia (r. 556-539 BC). A somewhat enigmatic figure, he in some way antagonized the influential priestly class of Babylon. Nabonidus left the city of Babylon under control of his son Belshazzar and lived for a while in the city of Harran and later in the oasis of Teima, in the Arabian Desert. In 539 BC the Babylonians were defeated by the Persian king Cyrus the Great, who had defeated Media. Nabonidus was captured at Sippar (near modern Baghdad, Iraq), and the Persians entered Babylon without resistance. Babylonia was then annexed to Persia and lost its independence for all time.

 

In 2 Samuel 7:13,16 God says that Solomon's kingdom will last forever. It didn't of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon's death, never to be rebuilt.

 

Psalms 89 says, "I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations." But the Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah; there were none during the Babylonian captivity, and there are none today.

 

2 Sam. 7:11b-16 -- 11b "'"And Jehovah has told you that a house is what Jehovah will make for you. 12 When your days come to the full, and you must lie down with your forefathers, then I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one that will build a house for my name, and I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite. 14 I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son. When he does wrong, I will also reprove him with the rod of men and with the strokes of the sons of Adam. 15 As for my loving-kindness, it will not depart from him the way I removed it from Saul, whom I removed on account of you. 16 And your house and your kingdom will certainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you; your very throne will become one firmly established to time indefinite."'"

 

Psalms 89:3,4 -- 3 “I have concluded a covenant toward my chosen one;

I have sworn to David my servant, 4 ‘Even to time indefinite I shall firmly establish your seed, And I will build your throne to generation after generation.’”

 

Many today believe these are refering to the setting up of a kingdom under the rulership of Christ in heaven. Would you disagree that Jesus was the decendent of Solomon? I do agree that there were no more human kings in Jerusalem from Solomon's lines after the destruction of Jersulam in 607BC.

 

Even the Bible itself is very clear that not all prophecies came true. In Genesis 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14, God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13 admit that God's promise was not fulfilled.

 

Acts 7:2-7 -- 2 He said: “Men, brothers and fathers, hear. The God of glory appeared to our forefather Abraham while he was in Mes·o·po·ta´mi·a, before he took up residence in Ha´ran, 3 and he said to him, ‘Go out from your land and from your relatives and come on into the land I shall show you.’ 4 Then he went out from the land of the Chal·de´ans and took up residence in Ha´ran. And from there, after his father died, [God] caused him to change his residence to this land in which YOU now dwell. 5 And yet he did not give him any inheritable possession in it, no, not a footbreadth; but he promised to give it to him as a possession, and after him to his seed, while as yet he had no child. 6 Moreover, God spoke to this effect, that his seed would be alien residents in a foreign land and [the people] would enslave them and afflict [them] for four hundred years. 7 ‘And that nation for which they will slave I shall judge,’ God said, ‘and after these things they will come out and will render sacred service to me in this place.’

Edit: Quick note here, I added the bold, anyone want to verify how long the Bible and other historians say the sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were enslaved in Egypt?

Hebrews 11:8-16 -- 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he resided as an alien in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, and dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God.

11 By faith also Sarah herself received power to conceive seed, even when she was past the age limit, since she esteemed him faithful who had promised. 12 Hence also from one [man], and him as good as dead, there were born [children] just as the stars of heaven for multitude and as the sands that are by the seaside, innumerable.

13 In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who say such things give evidence that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had indeed kept remembering that [place] from which they had gone forth, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them.

 

Actually God never promised the land to Abraham, though Abraham did live in it and he and his nephew Lot did divide up the land between the two of them and prosper off of it for their entire lives. But he did promise that land to Abraham's decendents, and after leaving Egypt and wandering 40 years they did inherit the land promised by God. The "all these died" in verse 13 is refering to all those who came before and including Abraham and Sarah. The promise was not made that Abraham would see the land being inherrited, but that it would become an inheritance.

Notice there is also a second "better place" mentioned in verse 16 that the people of Paul's day were reaching out for. A new inherritance that the first century christians hoped toward, namely heaven.

 

I've only spent about an hour on this post and have in my mind anyway destroyed many of your beliefs in false prophecies. It would take me longer to get through them all. Perhaps more study is in order on both our parts, and everyone else's to, to not just take the word of what someone they know little about, but to study these scriptures for themselves.

[InfiniteNow]

I've only spent about an hour on this post and have in my mind anyway destroyed many of your beliefs in false prophecies.

Two individuals looking at the very same object will often see vastly different things.

[cwes99_03]

How true. Looks like those two minds need to sit down and determine which is right. In some cases optical illusions allow for both to be right, however this is not such a case.

Likewise two school age children can look at a math problem and one can say 2+2=4 while another says 2+2=5, only one would be right.

[InfiniteNow]

How true. Looks like those two minds need to sit down and determine which is right.

These are not mutually exclusive. Both can be right at the same time.

 

Likewise two school age children can look at a math problem and one can say 2+2=4 while another says 2+2=5, only one would be right.

Not really. Interpretation is subjective. While we may interpret math differently, it's equations are objectively the same each time, and are based on very distinct rules. So, one is right in math, but not in interpretation of math.

[sebbysteiny]

Perhaps I haven't repeated it enough . What I said is that ACCORDING TO THE OFFICIAL POSITION OF ALL THOSE WHO STUDY THE OLD TESTIMENT, it is the exact word of god as dictated to Moses at mount Sini.

 

Oh, you did. Well, will you please fill my request to post where this conclusion comes from. I have never in my life heard a church give the official position that "the old testiment is the exact word of God as dictated to Moses at Mount Sinai."

 

The reason you have never heard this is because the church really doesn't care about going into the old-testiment in that detail. Thus vicars are tought a quick and easy version of the old-testiment.

 

However, I have asked questions to both Jewish and Christian religous leaders. All Jewish leaders believe (officially) that it was a dictation by god. At first I thought that Christians believe something fundamentally different, until I saw a program in which high ranking Christian leaders acknowledged that it was, like the Jewish version also a dictation by God. However, you have to get high high high, like an eagle, before you see this.

[IDMclean]

Indeed, it is the understanding I came to.

 

Moses, God & "I AM" Back to Spiritual Writings

 

Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to

them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His

name?' what shall I say to them?"

 

And God said to Moses, "I AM who I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the

children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

 

Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The Lord

God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob,

has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all

generations.'" -Exodus 3:15

 

Recently, I was listening to a nationally-syndicated, am radio, talk-show host express

his opinion regarding the above scripture. I must say that I was astonished at his

interpretation. Let me try and paraphrase his thoughts:

 

God's name is "I AM, " and that name means power! Many today take God's name

in vain by using "curse" (cursing yourself) words such as, "I AM worthless; I AM

hopeless; I AM powerless." You create what you believe and speak, so why not

create great things. Speak, "I AM worthy; I AM holy; I AM blessed!"

 

As I was thinking about the radio host's words, I could not help but think about Moses

hearing God. Religion always paints the picture of God being an old man with a

beard on a throne speaking down to a shuddering Moses. But, where did God

speak this message to Moses? Was God visible before him? No, Moses heard

God from within himself. So, when God said, "Tell them I AM sent you," He meant

Moses was operating from the power within himself by knowing and being one with

God. Moses just simply had to hear it and be it. You might say that Moses sent his

own self in authority by following this truth within his heart.

 

It is interesting how Jesus spoke in the very same manner. He said in John's gospel,

"I AM the bread of life. I AM the gate. I AM the good shepherd. I AM the way. I AM

the light. I AM the true vine." The "I AM" Jesus spoke of is the same "I AM" that sent

Moses in power to Egypt. It is the "I AM who I AM," or I AM what I BELIEVE AND

FOLLOW.

You have been given the power to create. Socrates is quoted as saying, "Know

thyself." That is a very deep truth. Are you using the power within you to create a

world of suffering, lack and loss, or are you using the same power within to create

blessings, joy and peace. Examine your heart and voice. What are you speaking

daily? What you are speaking is creating the world around you...the seen & the

unseen.

 

God told moses the laws of God, and he sent moses on to teach the others the word of god, handed to him from I am.