Depression (Clinical)

[paigetheoracle]

It's amazing how when we start to look at brain function instead of behavior, all those behavioral "problems" seem to make sense.

 

How many members here have been diagnosed with some kind of behavioral problem or depression or some other "anti-social" behavior, such as Asperger's or Autism? Am I the only one? I have a feeling there might be some other creative people around here whose response to the reality we're all stuck with might be, according to conventional standards, a little skewed.

 

--lemit

 

 

 

Count me in. My genius is well known but so are my nutty qualities (Oh and did I mention the 'humility'?). I think creativity is living close to the edge but some of us fall off occasionally!

[paigetheoracle]

Mike, with regards to the heart and depression, all I can say is that I am not surprised. The skewed way I look at it (thanks for the term at this timely point Lemit!) is that it is like having run a race and collapsed exhausted afterwards. We all need to recover from any kind of exertion and that it should weaken the heart is no surprise to me as along with the lungs, this is where most physical effort is centred. Could it be that depression is just mental exhaustion and needs fish oil nutrients for this reason? (nothing runs on empty but can run until it is empty). Could this be why heart and spirit are linked i.e. the courage to go on/ do things others find challenging but back away from? (To dream the impossible dream, to think the unthinkable thought). In other words the physiological basis for spirituality?

[Michaelangelica]

Mike, with regards to the heart and depression, all I can say is that I am not surprised. The skewed way I look at it (thanks for the term at this timely point Lemit!) is that it is like having run a race and collapsed exhausted afterwards. We all need to recover from any kind of exertion and that it should weaken the heart is no surprise to me as along with the lungs, this is where most physical effort is centred. Could it be that depression is just mental exhaustion and needs fish oil nutrients for this reason? (nothing runs on empty but can run until it is empty). Could this be why heart and spirit are linked i.e. the courage to go on/ do things others find challenging but back away from? (To dream the impossible dream, to think the unthinkable thought). In other words the physiological basis for spirituality?

I think exhaustion is a very big part of it. Especially adrenal exhaustion --the organ that takes the brunt of our 20th century stressors; be they social/economic or environmental /pollution related.

 

WS was history's stand out psychologist. He was no slouch with the word-processing quill either

The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.

WS

and;

because I can:-

Expectation is the root of all heartache.

WS

It is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so.

WS

Having nothing, nothing can he lose.

WS

But men are men; the best sometimes forget.

WS

 

Much reserch on creativity, invention, obsession, & aspergers is showing the The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact. is sooo true.

If we want innovation, creativity, thinking-outside-the-square, technological break-thoughs; the ability to image a future "different";-- then we need to treasure and coddle our lunatics. Ensuring them a safe accepting environment where they are valued and can shine. ( Not that easy to do as we can't NOW do it for our "normal" 'everyday' people)

This is already starting to happen with some innovative European companies.

 

lemit said

How many members here have been diagnosed with some kind of behavioral problem or depression or some other "anti-social" behavior,

I will go looking for the stats, but from memory I think 1:3 people will be "diagnosed" with some mental disorder during their lives. My guess is that at least that number again will never go near, or see, a doctor to BE diagnosed. That does not leave many of us sane ones left.:)

Interestingly that makes the "sane" ones (the happy, centered, content,calm) statistically aberrant--so they should be locked up as they are not "normal"! :)

 

IMHO its what comes with mixing water and electricity; bacteria and dangerous chemicals, together in a big, squishy, decomposing bag.

Intelligent Design ? I don't think so.

[paigetheoracle]

Very witty and very true Mike - I'm a burned out wreck, who, had he been caught would have ended up in a loony bin ages ago (genius and madness go hand-in-hand but one is less cautious than the other and I'm not sure which is which? Something about a blue pill versus a red one).

[lemit]

So, now, anybody here think we're just a bunch of crazy weeklings who'd be all right if we just tried harder? (Please correct my question as may be needed; I'm that insecure.)

 

--lemit

[JMJones0424]

So, now, anybody here think we're just a bunch of crazy weeklings who'd be all right if we just tried harder? (Please correct my question as may be needed; I'm that insecure.)

 

--lemit

 

"Week" or "weak", I can see both making sense.

 

When I get too caught up with being a "weekling" I take a few weeks to go backwoods hiking and get in touch with my animal side. Pocketknife, bedroll, water purifier, four quart canteens, and some snare wire or fishing line and hooks, nothing else but the clothes on my back. Hardest part is finding someone to watch the animals while I'm gone.

 

When I feel like a "weakling" I try to correct my perceived deficiencies, or when able, accept them. Doesn't always work out that way though.

[paigetheoracle]

So, now, anybody here think we're just a bunch of crazy weeklings who'd be all right if we just tried harder? (Please correct my question as may be needed; I'm that insecure.)

 

--lemit

 

The whole tenet here implies 'forcing yourself to do things, through emotional blackmail of "I'm/ you're not good enough". What does force do? It pushes you beyond your 'physical' limits, rather than allows you to relax and go beyond them naturally, becoming inspired by ideas that come to your automatically when in the resting or dreaming states. In other words the Gung-ho/ macho attitude moves your body but not your mind, so you keep your prejudices. Meditation, sleep, thinking - all allow new ideas to come in and problems to be resolved, fighting is attrition that wears down the system - be it social, through war or individual, through crime (constant motion/ e-motion i.e. negative (stuck) beliefs).:(

 

The way I see it mind and body are opposites, requiring opposing action/ inaction to work. If you leap into physical action, it is the body reacting to physical stimuli. If your mind leaps into action, it is because the body is not being distracted by outside sensory input but resting, so thought can flow (See The Person from Pollock and Coleridges poem, 'Kublai Khan'): Thought stops action - action stops thought/ The only thing we really fight is our own ignorance (Physical spontaneity wipes the mind clean, so memory (habit) is forgotten as mental spontaneity wipes the world clear, so that the outside world ceases to exist).:eek:

[designersunglasses]

What are the reasons behind this depression?Do they have any precautions related to this..

[Michaelangelica]

Have a read of the research report on "The Upside of Feeling Down"

It is some of the most delightfully done psy. reseach I have seen in many a year.

It is long, but worth a quite study

It seems sad people think a little better are more observant and a bit more logical among other things.

That's sadness not clinical depression, anyway an interesting read, with lots of implications for law, medicine and formulating social policy.

SEE

http://hypography.com/forums/science-news-elsewhere/21539-upside-feeling-down.html

[Michaelangelica]

Well known medical journalist Ray Moynihan has plenty to say about the pharma industry's relationship with medical researchers and scientific publications in his book, Selling Sickness: the World's Biggest Pharmaceutical Companies Are Turning Us All into Patients. [Disclaimer: I was invited to host the Sydney launch of the book in 2005].

 

Big Pharma likely isn't a fan of Ray's as a result.

 

The book stemmed from an earlier paper he wrote in the British Medical Journal here. Ray and coauthors have just had another analysis published in BMJ this week on drugs for pre-osteoporosis.

 

Last year Ray and his Newcastle University colleague, Professor David Henry, hosted the inaugural Disease-mongering conference - read more in their article published in PloS Medicine here.

 

Also of interest, David Henry is cofounder of Media Doctor Australia - a website which critically reviews medical and health stories in the Australian media. Keeps us on our toes.

 

Here's a link to the transcript of a heated public debate I chaired, gosh - over 4 years ago now - between Professor David Healy (author of Let them Eat Prozac: The Unhealthy Relationship Between the Pharmaceutical Industry and Depression) and Professor Ian Hickie (Executive Director of the Brain and Mind Institute) in Perth.

 

Depressed, Bothered or Bewildered? - The Antidepressants Debate (RTF file) http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/mind/aim_antidepressants_full.rtf

 

There have been developments since the latter, but the core issues discussed ever remain. Not a simple matter to cover of course, and health journalists who do mindful, forensically thorough reportage get lambasted from ever corner of the playground on this one.

 

All In The Mind: January 2008

[Michaelangelica]

St. John's Wort Collection Mined for Its Medicinal Value

 

ScienceDaily (Apr. 9, 2010) — A unique collection of St. John's wort (Hypericum) curated by Agricultural Research Service (ARS) scientists in Ames, Iowa, is providing university collaborators with genetically diverse, well-documented sources of this herb to use in studies examining its medicinal potential.

 

In collaboration with Mark Widrlechner, a horticulturist with the ARS crop genebank at the North

sciencedaily

The herb of the sun god bring light to many

[Turtle]

sciencedaily

The herb of the sun god bring light to many

 

it's a class c noxious weed here in the pacific northwest united states. :phones: Washington State Noxious Weed Control Board

 

then there are the side-effects. here's a few; more at the link.

 

St. John's Wort Side Effects, Interactions and Warnings

...Avoid the following substances when using St.-John's-wort: Amino acids tryptophan and tyrosine; amphetamines; asthma inhalants; beer, coffee, wine; chocolate, fava beans, salami, smoked or pickled foods, and yogurt; cold or hay fever medicines; diet pills; narcotics; nasal decongestants. They all contain chemicals that react adversely to hypericin, causing high blood pressure and nausea.

 

Avoid exposure to the sun during treatment, it can cause heightened sun sensitivity when taken in large amounts. Anyone who is hypersensitive to sunlight or is taking other photosensitizing drugs should be cautious.

 

Interferes with the absorption of iron and other minerals

 

St. John's wort should not be taken with any other antidepressants

 

St. John's wort should be taken with meals

...

 

the list is enough to depress a person. :xparty: :friday:

[Michaelangelica]

Here too grows everwhere outback.

 

Ho hum about the side effects

And the side effects of antidepressants are lack of affect, weight gain, death.

The most serious are it's interactions with prescription drugs like immune suppressants.

[CerebralEcstasy]

Here too grows everwhere outback.

 

Ho hum about the side effects

And the side effects of antidepressants are lack of affect, weight gain, death.

The most serious are it's interactions with prescription drugs like immune suppressants.

 

 

I've been doing some research on the following:

 

Rhodiola Rosea, simply because I live in a very cool climate and have land that isn't doing anything but growing weeds.

 

Here's the information from wikipedia regarding the herb.

 

Rhodiola rosea may be effective for improving mood and alleviating depression. Pilot studies on human subjects[2][3][4] showed that it improves physical and mental performance, and may reduce fatigue.

Rhodiola rosea's effects potentially are related to optimizing serotonin and dopamine levels due to monoamine oxidase inhibition and its influence on opioid peptides such as beta-endorphins,[5] although these specific neurochemical mechanisms have not been clearly documented with scientific studies.

Rhodiola is included among a class of plant derivatives called adaptogens which differ from chemical stimulants, such as nicotine, and do not have the same physiological effects.

In Russia and Scandinavia, Rhodiola rosea has been used for centuries to cope with the cold Siberian climate and stressful life.[citation needed] Such effects were provided with evidence in laboratory models of stress using the nematode C. elegans,[6] and in rats in which Rhodiola effectively prevented stress-induced changes in appetite, physical activity, weight gain and the estrus cycle.[7]

Rhodiola has been used in traditional Chinese medicine, where it is called hóng jǐng tiān (红景天).

Phytochemicals and potential health effects

 

The dried rhizomes contained essential oil with the main chemical classes: monoterpene hydrocarbons, monoterpene alcohols and straight chain aliphatic alcohols were the most abundant volatiles detected in the essential oil, and a total of 86 compounds were identified (Rohloff, 2002). Geraniol was identified as the most important rose-like odor compound besides geranyl formate, geranyl acetate, benzyl alcohol and phenylethyl alcohol. Its oxygenated metabolite Rosiridol is an aglycon of Rosiridin (Kurkin et al., 1985a; Kurkin and Zapesochnaya, 1986b) - one of the most active constituents of Rhodiola in bioassay guided fractionation of Rhodiolathe extract (van Diermen, 2009). Rosiridin was found to inhibit monoamine oxidases A and B in vitro implying its potential beneficial effect in depression and senile dementia (van Diermen, 2009). More than 50 polar compounds were isolated from the water alcoholic extracts, they are: monoterpene alcohols and their glycosides, cyanogenic glycosides, phyhylethanoids and phenylpropanoids, flavonoids, aryl glycosides, proanthocyanidins and other gallic acid derivatives. (Zapeschnaya, and Kurkin, 1983, 1983; Kurkin et al., 1985a; Kurkin, and Zapesochnaya, 1986a,b; Ganzera et al., 2001; Tolonen et al.,2003; Saratikov and Krasnov, 2004; Akgul et al., 2004; Ma et al.2006, Yousef et al., 2006, Ali et al.,2008; Avula et al., 2008).

Withering flower

 

 

Rhodiola rosea contains a variety of compounds that may contribute to its effects,[8] including the class of rosavins which include rosavin, rosarin, and rosin. Several studies have suggested that the most active components are likely to be rhodioloside and tyrosol,[9] with other components being inactive when administered alone, but showing synergistic effects when a fixed combination of rhodioloside, rosavin, rosarin and rosin was used.[10] Also, the word Rosavin is a trademarked brand name for a particular brand of Rhodiola extract from Ameriden International, Inc.

Although rosavin, rosarin, rosin and salidroside (and sometimes p-tyrosol, rhodioniside, rhodiolin and rosiridin) are among suspected active ingredients of Rhodiola rosea, these compounds are mostly polyphenols for which no physiological effect in humans is proved to prevent or reduce risk of disease.[11]

Although these phytochemicals are typically mentioned as specific to Rhodiola extracts, there are many other constituent phenolic antioxidants, including proanthocyanidins, quercetin, gallic acid, chlorogenic acid and kaempferol.[12][13]

While animal tests have suggested a variety of beneficial effects for Rhodiola rosea extracts,[14] only for depression is there scientific evidence for Rhodiola components having anti-disease benefits in humans. A clinical trial showed significant effect for a Rhodiola extract in doses of 340–680 mg per day in male and female patients from 18 to 70 years old with mild to moderate depression.[15]

Rhodiola rosea extract SHR-5 exerts an anti-fatigue effect that increases mental performance, particularly the ability to concentrate in healthy subjects (Darbinyan et al., 2000; Spasov et al.,2000b; Shevtsov et al., 2003) and burnout patients with fatigue syndrome (Olsson et al., 2009). Rhodiola significantly reduced symptoms of fatigue and improved attention after four weeks of repeated administration (Olsson et al., 2009).

Olsson, E.M.G., von Schéele, B., Panossian, A.G., 2009. A randomized double-blind placebo controlled parallel group study of SHR-5 extract of Rhodiola rosea roots as treatment for patients with stress related fatigue. Planta medica 75,105-112.

Studies on whether Rhodiola improves physical performance have been inconclusive, with some studies showing some benefit,[16] while others show no significant difference.[17]

[edit] Dosage

 

Dried Rhodiola rosea root

 

 

Rhodiola rosea extract is mainly used in the form of capsules or a tablet, though tinctures are also available. The capsules and tablets often contain 100 mg of a standardized amount of 3 percent rosavins and 0.8–1 percent salidroside because the naturally occurring ratio of these compounds in Rhodiola rosea root is approximately 3:1. Some companies believe that there are as many as 12 active biochemical compounds in the plant and do not subscribe to what they perceive as "artificial" standardization on only two of those compounds. One company (Verde Botanica) states that 28 compounds have been identified in Rhodiola rosea, and that their proprietary extract MBS-13 is standardized to 13 of these in chromatographic assays.

A typical dosage is one or two capsules or tablets daily; one in the morning and when taking two, one in the early afternoon. Rhodiola rosea should be taken early in the day because for some it can interfere with sleep. Others can take it in the evening with no effect on sleep patterns. If a user becomes overly activated, jittery or agitated then a smaller dose with very gradual increases may be needed. It is contraindicated in excited states.[citation needed]

The dose may be increased to 200 mg three times a day if needed. A high dose is considered to be daily intakes of 1,000 mg and above.[citation needed]

Rhodiola rosea may be beneficial to increase energy and mental performance for people suffering from Hashimoto's disease.[citation needed]

In a 2007 clinical trial from Armenia, total effective doses were in the range of 340–680 mg per day for people aged 18 to 70. No side effects were demonstrated at these doses in the treatment of mild to moderate depression.[18]

[Michaelangelica]

I think the moderators will have afit when they see what you have pinched from Wiki. It might be an idea to prune it down abit

 

The Cochrane Reviews are highly respected medical reviews that look at evidence based medicine. The take a topic, or drug, and look at all the scientific evidence pro and con. They then look at the research studies and see if they have been conducted well & with rigor. They may do more statistical analysis of a lot of studies.

In their most recent review on on SJW they stated that SJW was as effective as market leading anti-depressants with fewer side effects on MAJOR Clinical depession.

The review is available on line if you do a scholar search for it.

 

There are some drugs SJW cannot be combined with; those are published on line too. Immune suppressants used in chemotherapy and organ transplants are the most important to be aware of. It seems SJW interferes with the needed therapeutic levels of these drugs in the body. The exact mechanism is unclear, perhaps liver excretion.

 

40% of Older Australians in 'retirement-homes'/some care, are Clinically Depressed.

[Michaelangelica]

Mechanism of Action of Folate in Depression

 

Three commercially available folate formulations, folic acid, 5-MTHF (also known as methylfolate and l-methylfolate), and folinic acid, may have a role in improving MDD remission rates. Via the one-carbon cycle, folic acid and folinic acid are converted into l-methylfolate.

This active form of folate can cross the blood-brain barrier and activate the enzymes needed to synthesize dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin,7 which are the trimonoamine neurotransmitters known to be involved in depression (AV 1).8 Additionally, MTHFR, an enzyme needed to convert folate forms to l-methylfolate, is affected by the C677T polymorphism, a genetic variation common in patients with depression that can impair the conversion to l-methylfolate.9

Folic acid. Two randomized, controlled studies10,11 have examined folic acid as augmentation therapy for depression. The first study10 found that folate may reduce residual symptoms of depression, particularly in individuals with low folate levels. The second study, by Coppen and Bailey,11 found a significantly greater response rate with women (but not men) who received folic acid plus an antidepressant versus placebo (AV 2).

Physicians Postgraduate Press, Inc. - Login

[Michaelangelica]

"The most plausible explanation for these results is that the increased mortality risk associated with antidepressant use is not due to the medication itself, but to the persistence of depressive symptoms despite treatment. In other words, it is the depression that is contributing to shorten people's lives."

 

Professor Almeida said the results of the study showed more needed to be done to improve the efficacy of current antidepressant treatments.

 

"More than half of older men with depression who use antidepressants or psychotherapy fail to respond fully to the treatment," he said.

Depression riskier for older men (Science Alert)

Study finds antidepressants not working in older men

 

 

Monday, 28 June 2010

 

A recently published study in the journal PLoS-One has found that more than half of older men who use antidepressant medication or psychotherapy are not responding to treatment.

 

Lead author, Professor Osvaldo Almeida, Research Director of the Western Australian Centre for Health and Ageing at The University of Western Australia, said the finding was surprising and alarming.

 

"This is a big issue, not only because depression causes significant personal suffering and disability, but also because our results show that these men are also more likely to die," Professor Almeida said.

 

"We found that older men who were using antidepressants but remained depressed had a substantially higher mortality risk.

Study finds antidepressants not working in older men | University News : University News : The University of Western Australia