What Is Memory?

[Eclogite]

Torson, would you be kind enough to provide some citations for your interesting perspectives on memory. Thank you.

[ughaibu]

I was wondering today, if I was offered an interesting amount of money for each day on which I repeated a particular phrase, "that looks like a lake to me" being the example I had in mind, how many days would elapse before I missed one?

[Torson]

Eclogite,

 

I'll be happy to, but as you can imagine it is a tremendous theme, so let's first prioritize your interest.

 

1. Memory I - Sensing and storage of "raw" data

2. Memory II - The platonic - the mental - the physical.

3. Consciousness: Awareness - understanding - intelligence

 

Choose start

[Eclogite]

Torson,

 

let me be more direct. Your description of memory does not employ the terminology, nor seem to acknowledge the structure, of conventional views on memory. This does not, of course, mean that it is wrong.

 

However, you seem to have arrived at a synthesis that is different from the conventional one. If this is so I am seeking any independent references that would help support this novel approach.

 

If I am mistaken and your thinking likes squarely within the bounds set by most psychologists, then again some references that would demonstrate this is the case would certainly help to educate me.

 

You are right that it is a large subject, but a smattering of thirty or forty peer reviewed articles should set the ball rolling.

 

Thanks.

Ophiolite

[Torson]

Ophiolite,

 

He, he, sorry – I shall never again give my ”light-foot” explanation of this. You are right, the explanation does not seem like the conventional structure and views of memory, and I will from now use the conventional terminology. I just thought I should give a convenient, super-short explanation.

 

The difference I wanted to point out lies in the actual memory, how we store sensory input.

 

Generally we have an idea of how the brain works, sensory input to thalamus (the “switchboard) which communicates to different part of the cerebral cortex but mainly to the hippocampus, where all new inputs are stored.

Instead of explaining this, let me jump to what I believe is your interest.

 

A few years back I was involved in a project trying to define true artificial intelligence. (An interesting point was that of the 200 000 selected tasks that were given, half were easy for humans but difficult for “computers” and the other half easy for computers and difficult for human)

 

During this exercise the need for memory was estimated and we had difficulties to fit all we needed in static biological matter, so we had to look for other probable encrypting possibilities, which became a separate (on-going) project, and this became more a physics area (from which I am coming).

 

As you know, from the fundamental particle, through elementary particles to atoms, molecules etc. they are all dynamic, i.e. they vibrate in one way or another, whether this is in form of waves or simple vibration.

 

In the atomic lattice of solids there is a quantisized mode of vibration called Phonon. These vibrations are in all structures and they are different depending on what molecules are present. These vibration frequencies are very high and the solids properties are dependent of these. For example absorbation of light is dependent of these frequencies. If the presence of the same frequency as of light is in the solid, it will absorb the light and (in most cases) convert it to heat. If there is no Phonon frequencies in the region of visible light, it will not be absorbed and go through, like in glass.

 

Back to memory: The importance is the spatial structure of the fundamental molecule of desoxyribonucleic acid (DNA). We do have the structural formula for:

A-Adenine: C5H5N5

G-Guanine: C5H5N5O

T-Thymine: C5H6N2O2

C-Cytosine: C 4H5N3O

 

But it is the spatial structure that determines the phonon (vibration) which is giving the dynamics to the structure.

Utilizing these gives us by far enough capacity.

 

I should have explained more but right now I have to run, I’m too late for an appointment, but we can continue …………

[Torson]

Ophiolite,

 

Quickly: For articles, try http://consc.net/online1.html#concept, there should be about 2500 of them. I will advise further for more specific.

[chamilton333]

I can answer forgetfulness. When we forget things, our brain cells don't die. The things that do deteriorate are the links to the brain cells. Have you ever been asked a question, in a group, and you figure an answer, but another member of the group answers first, then after he finishes, you attempt to answer, but you can’t remember:( ? This is because when you come up with an answer, and you are just about to answer, the answer goes to your verbal center of your brain. You are forced to listen to the other guy. But since you didn’t say something when you were about to, you forgot.

[Torson]

Apologies for leaving my post hanging …

 

I realize that I won’t get away with my “lightfoot” description of what memory is, so let’s look at it more in depth, first from the technical point.

 

Now, why would I bring in lattice vibration in molecule structures to memory? Let us look at the parameters the brain has to work with.

 

1. Dynamics (here in the form of vibration at some frequency)

2. Chemical reactions

3. Electrical

 

What physical parameters does the brain not work with actively?

 

- Magnetism

- Gravity

- EMR (Electromechanical Radiation) (Except we can register some EMR as a bi-product of electrical activity [brainwaves]) One exception is the sensory system in our eyes, but this signal is converted to chemical/electrical parameters when entered to the brain.

 

What are the characteristics for each?

 

Dynamics is the lesser known of the parameter. This can be viewed as a mechanical vibration of the atoms in a molecule, vibrating in concert depending on the structure of the molecule (a resonance frequency). As an extreme example we can look at carbon. Diamond and graphite are both made from the exact same atom; carbon and nothing else. The difference is the way the atoms are arranged in the lattice, therefore the phonons (or vibration) are different. The diamond does not have any phonons in the region of light (approx. 400 to 800 THz [trillion oscillations per second]) and light will therefore not absorb the light, but it will pass through. Graphite has a structure which has phonons in this region and will therefore absorb these. If you put a piece of diamond and a piece of graphite in the sunlight, the diamond will remain cold while the graphite will absorb the light and convert it to heat and the piece gets hot.

In design of material this is taken into account.

The advantage of this property is that the same group of atoms can have almost infinite “tones” with change in structure.

 

Chemistry is the master of logics. It can change its characteristics in an instant, and in principle works on a need or excess principle.

This need or excess is satisfied by electrically charged particles, ions (atoms, group of atoms or electrons) which are exchanged between molecules. Chemistry is also adequate for storage of information, but is less efficient because it requires more resources (codes) to express differences.

So while chemistry is responsible for the logic, electrical charged particles are responsible for the short and long range “communication” or exchange.

 

As a very general/over-simplified principle; if a need (ex. lack of a positive ion) is created in a cell/molecule (A) at one end of a nerve (ex Cortex) it will take the ion from molecule in the nerve (1) (and therefore be back in balance), and the nerve molecule again takes it from the next molecule, and the next and the next (2…3…4….) until it reaches a cell/molecule (;) which will start a different reaction. This reaction will create an excess in (:) and send an ion back the same route until it reaches (A) which now is in excess and starts a reaction with the surrounding. This is a two-way “communication” and will continue until the (A) area is satisfied and in balance.

 

The sensory or input part of the brain is an excess area as ions are delivered continuously as the sensory system is functioning. It delivers the excess to different specialized areas of the brain which starts reactions in the areas.

 

The large “NEED” part of the brain is the newer (cortex) and the input area is the older (hippocampus). The hippocampus is relatively small but was sufficient for our existence. It mainly received the sensory inputs on “what”, “where” and “when”. The small “need” part of hippocampus mainly came as instincts descending from previous generations. Luckily the “need” part started to develop, the hippocampus became too small and the “need” area grew to other places. Still some of our brain functions are confusing because some are still partly remaining in the hippocampus but many are further developed in the new “need” areas.

 

So the “data processing” or “need” area has grown substantially, but the “excess” or input area has remained much like initially, maybe even diminished a bit. The ability to store massive “high resolution” “data” is still present and the “need” area is requesting its “data” from this part. Although the input area holds its “data” the “need” area builds its own reduced library according to the needs, but still requests from the hippocampus.

 

To get a glimpse of the capacity of the brain, sit down (or lay down) a comfortable position in complete darkness, without a sound, rested and fresh. The purpose is to excite your “need” area as fas as possible in 30 minutes. Try to recall memories from the past, your childhood home, items, colours, rooms, trees, friends, from your school like classroom, recall events, trips made and scenes from it, activities, the pimple on your neighbours face, everything you can recall, but just for that half hour. You think you have covered a lot, but in reality its just a small fraction of what your memory holds.

 

Next, sit down at a desk and write down everything you remember, not in broad terms, but in minute detail, describe the shape of the vase, colours, contours, describe a face with shape and all details.. When you have written down everything it must be detailed enough so that I can “see” exactly what you have seen. Unfortunately that will not happen because you would use several lifetimes to detail it to that precision. And this is just a fraction of what your memory holds.

 

Now, how is the brain capable of storing this vast amount of “data”, and how are we able to excite the “need” area to find it?

 

- I have to come back to that – kids waiting

[infamous]

This discussion has obviously centered around the biological aspect of memory, and understandably so. It's been a while since anyone has posted on this subject and I thought it may be useful to bump the thread along. But in doing so, I would like to advance the discussion by thinking about a more basic concept of memory. In doing so, we may find ourselves closing the gap between biology and physics and it might become necessary to start another thread in the Physics forum. This possibility has already occured to me but I felt it only fair to the originator of this thread to honor their initial efforts.

 

I personally feel that memory can be defined in more basic terms.

 

#1.....Ofcourse, there is memory as an attribute of mental activity.

#2.....Memory associated with the physical character of metals.

#3.....Memory associated with subatomic interactions.

 

I once heard the theory expressed that every sound produced throughout the entire history of earth could be detected if instruments of sufficient sensitivity could be constructed. Whether this is accurate or not, I'm not prepared to even guess. Nevertheless, the memory of sound wave do have a life of their own and likewise every other physical vibration. To narrow my focus, I've often wondered about the electron positron annilation in quantum fluctuations. Something approaching a memory of sorts seems to be taking place within the quantum region also.

 

As I've already noted, if this area of discussion takes a physical turn and becomes active, I'll start a new thread in the Physics forum. However, those who wish to continue the biological discussion about memory can do so here......................................Infy

[hallenrm]

I agree with you infy, then there is hysteresis a very well known concept in physics also related to a kind of memory.

 

Rechargeable batteries also have memory of how and when they were recharged:)

[Turtle]

I agree with you infy, then there is hysteresis a very well known concept in physics also related to a kind of memory.

 

Rechargeable batteries also have memory of how and when they were recharged:)

 

Not all rechargeable batteries suffer the memory problem; just the NiCads I think. Here's a primer:

http://michaelbluejay.com/batteries/

 

Funny too in relation to human memory how a good knock on the head (or other trauma) can cause loss of memory. (Well, curious not funny.:cheer: )

[Dov Henis]

I apologize if I repeat some idea(s) expressed earlier in this thread; I just noted the title of the thread and hurried to post without having read prior postings...

 

Three paras from my postings elsewhere few years ago. They may be relevent to this thread:

 

(A) Sentience was a functional capability of the earliest individual genes and has evolved into a more complex capability of genes commune cooperatives and, in normal ambient state, is switched-on or not and shared or not and leads to reaction or not depending on the location-tasks of the cells in which dwell the genes cooperatives.

 

(:cheer: All organisms, including single-celled, have consciousness. It is the complexity of consciousness that varies from organism to organism. The baseline of consciousness is sensing mechanisms plus consequent and/or accompanying reaction processes.

 

© The Immune System is common to ALL organisms. In its scope and features in humans and other animals it is prevalent and common also in plants. Its baseline is MEMORY, which by analogy with immunity suggests to me to conjecture to be production and storage of unique protein tags stored somewhere in the organism as a record of a sensed matter and - in humans - also of a thought formulated, read or heard, negotiated by some certain neurons.

 

Conjecturing again,

 

Dov

[Turtle]

I apologize if I repeat some idea(s) expressed earlier in this thread; I just noted the title of the thread and hurried to post without having read prior postings...

 

Three paras from my postings elsewhere few years ago. They may be relevent to this thread:

 

© The Immune System is common to ALL organisms. In its scope and features in humans and other animals it is prevalent and common also in plants. Its baseline is MEMORY, which by analogy with immunity suggests to me to conjecture to be production and storage of unique protein tags stored somewhere in the organism as a record of a sensed matter or - in humans - of a thought formulated, read or heard, negotiated by some certain neurons.

Conjecturing again,

 

Dov

 

What do you speculate happens to cause memory loss from the head-knock I mentioned given the protein tag scenario? Do you think the memory is gone, or simply access to it interrupted?

PS Nice post. :cheer:

[Monomer]

What do you speculate happens to cause memory loss from the head-knock I mentioned given the protein tag scenario? Do you think the memory is gone, or simply access to it interrupted?

PS Nice post. :cheer:

 

 

This might be useful...

 

Journal of Cerebral Blood Flow & Metabolism - Abstract of article: Activation of calcium//calmodulin-dependent protein kinases after traumatic brain injury

 

(I don't know if everyone can access the full text, but I can if anyone's interested).

[HydrogenBond]

Neural memory is different than computer memory in that neural memory can change with time, because it is living tissue. Neural memories are composed of synapses, which amount to a branch tip from one neuron tree interacting with a branch of another neuron tree. It takes more than one of these synapses to make a memory. These neuron trees lose branches and grow new ones in other directions causing the synampic group to change with time to reflect new data such as perspective and 20/20 hindsight.

 

Memory is more than storage and retrival. It is also a living process that causes the memories to alter with changes in brain potential caused by other memories, new memories, dreams, sensory systems, etc. The more fixed memory, such as letters of an alphabet, are consciously reinforced because of language, causing new growth to replace the old. In other words, of one left any discipline for a year or so, the once working or extensive fixed memory, will change and decrease, since it is not constantly reinforced by one's daily activities. Instead it will be influenced by other factors that make the neuron trees grow toward a different sun.

 

One of the things that memory does is grow into increasingly complex memory organizations. Letters merge into words, words into sentenses, sentenses into paragraphs, paragraphs in to books, books into libraries, etc. This is the basis of wisdom and common sense. These increasingly complex living and evolving memory organizations give one the charisma of ingenuity, where new intermediate relationships can be extraoplated from higher and lower level organization. This is synapses tempraraily regrouping as a team, without any short term change of branching structure. But if we focus on the ingenuity, the brain potential causes the branching to grow into this shell to form a fixed memory, that then blands into the larger structures.

[infamous]

 

(B) All organisms, including single-celled, have consciousness.

 

I would not oversimplify the term consciousness Dov... When speaking about memory and consciousness, one should draw definite distinctions between the two. While some level of consciousness may exist in lower forms of life, I think it a bit of a stretch to use the word ALL.

 

Memory is a much more widely used term and can be used to refer to things as inanimate and lifeless as a coil spring. To use the two words interchangably is a mistake in my opinion...........................Infy

[Dov Henis]

What do you speculate happens to cause memory loss from the head-knock... given the protein tag scenario? Do you think the memory is gone, or simply access to it interrupted?

 

Turtle,

 

If I had my d'rathers I'd rather favor interrupted/damaged mechanism of either access to the protein tags or of conveying signal from the tags to deciphering or to the deciphering constellation.

 

Dov