Illegal Immigration

[IDMclean]

Racoon, man, I feel such compassion for you, you hold so much anger.

 

As for "my" planet, it applies that it is "your" planet. surely you've seen my various posts about three as two as one, right? My point was that we all live here. We all eat the same food, we drink the same water, we breath the same air. Divisions are only of the ego. Those who would play a game of superiority.

 

I arose from the clay of the earth, and the universe gave me animus. So shall I eventually fall back to the clay that I am of and that animus be pasted out into the universe once again.

 

Now as for Americans and all that. Greed. Who needs to "own" land. Even in the American system you can not "own" land. You can claim it, but it belongs to the goverment. There's this great document I read once or twice before it goes something like "We the people...".

 

The goverment (the people) can seize your land from beneath you if it is more beneficial to do so than to let you keep your dirt plot.

 

Universal Immagration is more than simple happy hippy BS. It is nessessary to the continued progress of the human species as a whole. The walls create economic discrepancies, and will ultimately backlash us (as in the American People) so bad.

 

Just you wait Racoon, man, given another decade or two and America will be a second rate power, with India and China going for super power of the world.

 

I'm betting on India personally, but then again I was always a sucker for Democracy.

[InfiniteNow]

Remove the "and them" and you're left with just us.

[IDMclean]

Racoon, man, I relate it because we could have done something about it nearly a hundred years ago, maybe even 20, but now it's to late for us to make the nessessary adjustments, we will lose our status for between 50-150 years.

 

History is the key here. We are Xenophobic. China, one of the most powerful countries declined due to Xenophobia.

 

It's more important in this day and Age, there are many factors to concider but heres a few things:

 

Sub-Replacement Rates, Approx 2018-2022 Sub-replacement levels for america will go into deficit.

 

Outsourcing, this phenomena has metamorphused the world dynamic such that we will lose our economic hold. It's simply a quick pro-quo thing. We don't exchange citizentry (or jobs for that matter) at high enough rates to compete with the rest of the world.

 

Population. This one is big. It goes something like this. America has been the Technological leader in the past century to century and a half. It is the thing that has kept us ahead of everyone else. We thrive because of Percision Machinery, Power generation Capabilities (the big one), and Labor saving devices. China and India both have been aquiring all of these advantages. It is simply a matter of time now before a huge 2.3 BILLION population will have Industrial Power.

 

Economic Backing. Most would think that the dollar reflects our Material goods, but I do not think so myself. I think that the Dollar Reflects our Citizenship. People are valuable, for without them nothing would have any value. That I want/need food makes it valuable.

 

Innovation by Paradigm Scramble. or Statis of a country. Relatively speaking, our country, though innovative has gone into something of a stasis over the past 50 years or so, and we have been going into a slow decline, in terms of relative rate of Innovation. This is not just of Scientific, but of Socio-Economic, and Philosophic.

 

It would be difficult for me to prove this emperically, so I would suggest that it be thrown out by anyone who can't see it in their mind's eye.

 

It comes down to that our greed, has blinded us to the long term consiquences. We will know, and mostlikely will adapt eventually, but The things that made us strong yesterday, hold us back today. First thing that has to go for a world-wide Socio-economic system to work is the borders. We are, everyone of us, children of the earth. So:

:hihi: This land is my land, this land is your land...:hihi:

[IDMclean]

"It is the duty of a moral citizen to oppose unjust laws." - Gandhi (paraphrase)

 

Us and them is a false distiction. There is no us and them, there is only us. We the people. If you want to say there is a distiction, then I would think admitting the USA doesn't exist is a logical next step.

 

I don't know if you've thought about it before Racoon, man, but you and I we are illegal immagrants. Everysingle human in the whole america is an Illegal Immagrant.

 

We are only "legal" in our native enviroment, which would be around Lake Victoria in Africa.

 

You may not realize it Racoon, man, but these illegal people are nessessary to your cheap food prices. Infact, they are nessessary to keep the cost of standard of living down.

 

These people are willing to work for a much lower pay than you or I. Simply to live here. Few Legal Americans are going to work in the fields for less than 10 dollars an hour. Few are going to build houses for less than 12. Say what you will about them, but they are here to stay and I welcome them myself.

 

The only people who fear immagrants are those who have something to loose from it.

 

As for Terrorism? The solution is not Isolation, that makes it worse and leads to one place. Prevention of Terrorism is the spread of understanding. The gift of giving has many uses, and the dispel of hostility is one of them.

[InfiniteNow]

You failed to acknowledge the Numbers.

What about my statements..

What about listenening to the other side?

 

Pot calling kettle black my friend.

 

OK.. whatever :)

 

Let every sumabitch in the country! don't dare call any one a fag, even if they are! and accept everything they tell you.

 

Sick of Ultra-Liberalism!!

 

Sick of ultra-liberalism, sick of Political Correctness, sick of immigration issues, sick of <insert any one of Racoon's posts during the past several weeks here>. What is the common factor in all of these things Racoon?

 

I speak from experience, observance, and realistically open-mindedness...

While I understand the sentiment you are trying to make, I must point out that it really appears otherwise. I'm not attacking you. Many on this site have been both kind and informative in their posts, however, it seems that most of their posts have fallen on your deaf ears.

 

Another dead end discussion

 

Discussion involves consideration of multiple perspectives, not blaring your own opinion and getting upset if others don't jump on the band wagon.

 

 

I know we're talking about the pink elephant in the room, but look over there at that lemming... [/paraphrasing]

[IDMclean]

I'm not talking liberalism, as I am not a liberal.

 

I am a pragmatic. I know it seems like Liberalism, and you may call it that if you wish, but the Census data does not take into account a number of things, it is a formulae that is lacking in a few variables.

 

As for paying taxes? I plan on moving to a country like Holland, Germany or Canada. I like their Health, Education, and Social plans. Expecially as compared to America's. Another reason I believe America will lose it's ground. Education is key to an advanced culture.

 

You also speak from Pessimism.

[pgrmdave]

If I can break the law of being here illegally, then whats wrong with me growing Pot?

What laws can we next forget exist?

 

This is an invalid slippery slope argument, I don't think that one can equate trying to live here to growing a controlled substance to ignoring more laws. Here is a list of some laws I've broken (most taken from http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/new-jersey/ ):

 

Speeding limits.

I've purchased handcuffs as a minor.

I've passed cars without honking first.

I've slurpped soup.

 

And while I have not done it, I know somebody who passed a horse drawn carriage, which is illegal in NJ.

 

I've broken all these laws! Where will I stop? Soon, you'll see me eating ice cream after 6pm in Newark, or pumping my own gas, or eating a pickle in Trenton on Sunday, or killing a police officer...

 

While I think that you have valid points, that the United States will become a less desirable place to live due to illegal immigration, I don't think that the benefits of keeping people out and deporting them outweigh the feeling that we'd be turning our backs on our roots.

[hallenrm]

I am an outsider, in this discussion perhaps! Because I am not an American. But I can see similar problems creeping up, here in my country. People from neighboring poor countries immigrate in search of greener pastures. Well to do insiders exploit them while they can, they provide cheap labor! But when their number swells, they start ranting. They forget that the cheap labor helped them to become richer. Only the sloth remains visible.

 

The same story is being repeated worldwide! The borders between prosperity and poverty have to crumble some day, that's the second LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS, ENTROPY they call it. Prosperity and comfort are not very long lasting. Enjoy while you can.

 

When it becomes unbearable, take recluse in the wisdom of the east, because people there have experienced it all. After all they got civilized long before the westerners.;) :doh: :hyper:

[soulatom]

[puts Sociologists hat on]

 

Communications and transportation are eliminating *cultural* barriers. They have for years. Californians are invading Idaho and Eastern Washington and diluting the bigot brigade there that is already a minority. Boy are they pissed. National barriers are crumbling too. Are you mad about Mexicans coming across the border? What about ownership of US corporations that is going offshore thanks to a *conservative* government.

 

There are no borders any more. Get over it.

 

We don't need no steeking visas!

Buffy Villa

 

While you make good points here, I agree, there should be no borders. The planet is becoming a smaller piece of real estate, encumbent with diluted management and resources on many fronts. As we strive to embrace a world without borders, vigilantes on the American side of the US border are shooting people and killing them. The border patrol kills people. People die every day trying to cross borders. Territorial issues are most likely to increase not dissolve, IMO

[InfiniteNow]

You're so very wise Racoon, but with wisdom comes the ability to sense what others do, and I'd venture to guess that your comment regarding what others know and see, while hostile, is also inaccurate.

 

I am seriously looking 20 years down the road, while everyone else here is looking to a Politically Correct next Sunday..

 

 

It takes more than seeing a problem to implement the changes needed to correct it.

[InfiniteNow]

Why the need to delete all of your posts in this thread, Racoon?

 

:phones:

[InfiniteNow]

Don't forget this beauty:

 

http://hypography.com/forums/social-sciences/7229-political-correctness.html

[Turtle]

Arizona is not waiting for the Feds to curb illegal immigration. >>

 

Daily Herald - Migrants consider leaving after Arizona passes new employer sanctions law

...State Rep. Russell Pearce, who authored the employer sanctions law, said it was designed to force illegal immigrants to "self-deport."

 

"Just like Disney -- turn off the lights, shut down the rides and the crowd goes home. No more free stuff," he said.

 

"We have the inherent authority to enforce the law," he said. "And Arizona is leading the way to do that. We intend to go after employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants. I hope rest of nation follows our lead." ...

 

The Great Experiment continues. :)

[Freddy]

A lawsuit against the law was dismissed, but it will be refiled. It does not go into effect until January 31, 2008.

 

"A federal judge in Phoenix dismissed late Friday a lawsuit from business groups challenging a state law that punishes employers who hire illegal immigrants. Those business groups said Saturday they will refile the lawsuit."

Employer sanctions lawsuit tossed, business groups to refile - The Business Journal of Phoenix:

[Turtle]

A lawsuit against the law was dismissed, but it will be refiled. It does not go into effect until January 31, 2008.

 

"A federal judge in Phoenix dismissed late Friday a lawsuit from business groups challenging a state law that punishes employers who hire illegal immigrants. Those business groups said Saturday they will refile the lawsuit."

Employer sanctions lawsuit tossed, business groups to refile - The Business Journal of Phoenix:

 

History as my witness, the Great Experimenty is always messy. :) The very threat of the deadline has people on the unsupported end of the stick rethinking the finer points of location, location, location. Que sara sara.

 

http://hypography.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=200737

Illegal Immigrants Leaving Arizona in Droves

[Zythryn]

It will be very interesting to see the effects on Az over the next year.

I have supported the idea of punishing employers that knowingly or negligently hire illegals. With business being one of the bigger backers of politicians I figured it would never happen. I am glad to see Az taking that step.

I am all for legal immigration, and I would also support increasing the number of immigrants we accept each year.