Is George W Bush a complete moron ?

[InfiniteNow]

How will the actions that I am defending cause harm to the global population?

 

I do caution that "Causing harm to the global population" is a very vague criteria. I cause harm to the "global population" simply by filling my own nutritional needs and living at the top of the food chain - therefore I should forfeit my right to exist in favor of your preference for an unharmed global population.

You either know exactly what I mean and are being an ***, or you do not and have little hope of ever understanding my intent. However, for clarity, here are some summary points:

 

The people are not being represented. Our leaders are too indebted to special interest groups and party politics. This country was founded on the principle of government of the people, for the people, and by the people. We are arguably the wealthiest and most powerful nation on the planet, and yet we cannot educate our children. The time is spent on politicking or helping others do the same.

 

Agendas are pushed using focused methods to distract the populace. Weapons of mass destruction, gay marriage, immigration, flag burning amendments, and others. By spending time in Congress discussing such things they are denying other things like education, environment, healthcare, population sustainment, economy, and others. Let’s have real security too, and not just the illusion of security. Each of these expansive topic buckets can be filled with a multiplicity of detailed actions and issues representative of the problems with the current administration.

 

The interconnectivity of the globe is arguably more significant now than at any time during our history, and yet we continue to adhere to us/them mentalities and good old boy ignorance and dishonest tactics. We are losing future leverage and potential solutions to the above referenced problems by burning bridges with others and unilaterally acting on international issues.

 

The administration has long since lost track of what they are responsible for. They are responsible to the people. They should be accountable for what they do. The people should know what is happening. It’s about accountability. It’s all about accountability. This is why the polls matter. The people aren’t happy. The people want change, yet change is not forthcoming. What we see most consistently is just a continued lack of integrity and insistence on sticking with poor decisions. The administration has opted for a strategy of simply pushing emotional buttons, tactically dumping gasoline on fires to distract us from what started it. It’s about distraction, and I’m hoping to refocus the tiny percent that may actually listen to and agree with what I have to say on the topic.

 

I’m not just talking liberal or conservative, patriotism or insurgency, or propaganda… I’m talking about a clear and definite need to prevent our culture, our people, and our planet from being run any further into the ground by the enormously impactful decisions being made right now by a small group of powerful people. A significant portion of their decisions are harming us as a planet and a people.

[New-ideas]

Why does noone ever wonder that in a country of around 250 million people, supposedly the most powerful nation on Earth, that they could still manage to elect a complete nonse who is clearly a right wing nut job!

 

Still, I don't think in this day and age, Bush is our priority, the world needs to come to terms with the imminant problems we face; population, global warming and enviromental damage, these are the problems we need to tackle, as a whole race, humanity together

[jackson33]

Why does noone ever wonder that in a country of around 250 million people, supposedly the most powerful nation on Earth, that they could still manage to elect a complete nonse who is clearly a right wing nut job!

 

Still, I don't think in this day and age, Bush is our priority, the world needs to come to terms with the imminant problems we face; population, global warming and enviromental damage, these are the problems we need to tackle, as a whole race, humanity together

 

you get right to your point, that being, the President of the US does not fit your criteria for what the world problems are. there are a lot of us "right wing nut's" that do not accept President Bush, as libertarian/conservative or even close to a small government advocate. his actions have demonstrated the opposite. as for World Power; this may be true in the area of economics and we may have some advanced weapons in our military, but most American would be very happy, if the Nations in any area, would work together for their own good, develop their own schools, health/medical systems, farming and agricultural programs and kind of leave us to our own lives.

 

the US population went over 300M in Dec. 2006. for the sake of this discussion the worlds population is about 6.5 billion. here the problems, which will come well into the future, lay in the philosophical/religious views of the nations theological beliefs. Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Christan, Buddhist with all their segments preach against (in degrees) both birth control and abortion.

 

Global warming i suppose is, the man made kind which is argumentative and a large number of people on each side the issue are addressing the issue.

 

Environmental damage; there is not much we can do for Animal life, outside our zoo's and pets, since Animals have no way to clean up there mess after killing, eating or even in death. there are scavengers, which do a pretty good job, but the process is slow and some damage will happen.

[New-ideas]

you get right to your point, that being, the President of the US does not fit your criteria for what the world problems are. there are a lot of us "right wing nut's" that do not accept President Bush, as libertarian/conservative or even close to a small government advocate. his actions have demonstrated the opposite. as for World Power; this may be true in the area of economics and we may have some advanced weapons in our military, but most American would be very happy, if the Nations in any area, would work together for their own good, develop their own schools, health/medical systems, farming and agricultural programs and kind of leave us to our own lives.

 

the US population went over 300M in Dec. 2006. for the sake of this discussion the worlds population is about 6.5 billion. here the problems, which will come well into the future, lay in the philosophical/religious views of the nations theological beliefs. Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Christan, Buddhist with all their segments preach against (in degrees) both birth control and abortion.

 

Global warming i suppose is, the man made kind which is argumentative and a large number of people on each side the issue are addressing the issue.

 

Environmental damage; there is not much we can do for Animal life, outside our zoo's and pets, since Animals have no way to clean up there mess after killing, eating or even in death. there are scavengers, which do a pretty good job, but the process is slow and some damage will happen.

 

I accept what your trying to say, but America as a nation, is irresposible and foolish. The Iraq war is a perfect example of the blundering Americain ideals, and their never ending quest to seize global resources, which in this case would be oil.

 

Global warming is a serious issue, which America continually ignores, and refuses to stand with the rest of the World in, with Bush being at the centre of that ignorance.

 

Environmental damage, destruction of rainforests, the manmade destruction of worlds ecosystems, these are issues that while invariably affect the World, with America being one the main causes of it.

 

This is in no way a knock on the American people, but rather how they operate as a nation, and how they can allow themselves to be so blindly led by someone as foolhardy as Bush.

 

America has the potential to be a fantastic nation, to set the bar for the rest of the world, in a economically, socially and environmental consious manner, but right now, is not acting in the resposible manner the most powerful nation on Earth should be.

[TheBigDog]

Jesus Christ, Bill... talk about missing the tone of the post and continuing to attack me because the issues you defend are so weak and disagreeable. :)

Uh... OK... I have attacked your arguments (or lack there of), but I have not attacked you.

You either know exactly what I mean and are being an ***, or you do not and have little hope of ever understanding my intent.

Either I am being an ***, or I am virtually incapable of comprehending what you are saying. Check. I suppose those are the only two possibilities.

The people are not being represented. Our leaders are too indebted to special interest groups and party politics. This country was founded on the principle of government of the people, for the people, and by the people. We are arguably the wealthiest and most powerful nation on the planet, and yet we cannot educate our children. The time is spent on politicking or helping others do the same.

 

Agendas are pushed using focused methods to distract the populace. Weapons of mass destruction, gay marriage, immigration, flag burning amendments, and others. By spending time in Congress discussing such things they are denying other things like education, environment, healthcare, population sustainment, economy, and others. Let’s have real security too, and not just the illusion of security. Each of these expansive topic buckets can be filled with a multiplicity of detailed actions and issues representative of the problems with the current administration.

 

The interconnectivity of the globe is arguably more significant now than at any time during our history, and yet we continue to adhere to us/them mentalities and good old boy ignorance and dishonest tactics. We are losing future leverage and potential solutions to the above referenced problems by burning bridges with others and unilaterally acting on international issues.

 

The administration has long since lost track of what they are responsible for. They are responsible to the people. They should be accountable for what they do. The people should know what is happening. It’s about accountability. It’s all about accountability. This is why the polls matter. The people aren’t happy. The people want change, yet change is not forthcoming. What we see most consistently is just a continued lack of integrity and insistence on sticking with poor decisions. The administration has opted for a strategy of simply pushing emotional buttons, tactically dumping gasoline on fires to distract us from what started it. It’s about distraction, and I’m hoping to refocus the tiny percent that may actually listen to and agree with what I have to say on the topic.

 

I’m not just talking liberal or conservative, patriotism or insurgency, or propaganda… I’m talking about a clear and definite need to prevent our culture, our people, and our planet from being run any further into the ground by the enormously impactful decisions being made right now by a small group of powerful people. A significant portion of their decisions are harming us as a planet and a people.

Look! A Pterodactyl! (That is me being an ***)

The people are not being represented. Our leaders are too indebted to special interest groups and party politics. This country was founded on the principle of government of the people, for the people, and by the people. We are arguably the wealthiest and most powerful nation on the planet, and yet we cannot educate our children. The time is spent on politicking or helping others do the same.

We cannot educate our children? My children are educated (being educated). I would propose that there are subcultures within the US that have lost the taste for education, and at a community and family level do not enforce it as a core value (although they will claim to in conversation). All one must do is look at the demographics and see that some slices of people (subcultures) excel at education no matter what their circumstances. They are not genetically superior, they hold a higher value to education and invest their personal effort as a family and a community into that venture. There are limits to what a country can do to educate people, especially those who are unwilling participants in the process.

 

As for representation, if you disagree with the current administration, lucky for you we have periodic elections. You have your opportunity for change just around the corner. If you feel especially unrepresented, maybe you live in the wrong state. Another great feature of the US is our diversity. There are plenty of place you could live with like minded individuals. Your choice.

Agendas are pushed using focused methods to distract the populace. Weapons of mass destruction, gay marriage, immigration, flag burning amendments, and others. By spending time in Congress discussing such things they are denying other things like education, environment, healthcare, population sustainment, economy, and others. Let’s have real security too, and not just the illusion of security. Each of these expansive topic buckets can be filled with a multiplicity of detailed actions and issues representative of the problems with the current administration.

The agendas you list and the methods you mention are coming from all directions. It is (for better or for worse) how our federal government has evolved into operating. Here is the problem, what you list as "distractions" are to other citizens meaningful issues. Immigration is a huge issue with the majority of the population. Weapons of mass destruction is a global issue that we are dealing with globally. You may not like the methods by which we are dealing with it, but if you say it is not an issue (just a distraction) I would ask you to describe why.

 

Flag Burning and Gay Marriage are an interesting pair that we have dealt with before. In both cases I agree that they should never have been raised as issues to begin with. Flag burning should still be legal based upon the ruling of the Supreme Court, and Gay Marriage should still be illegal in all 50 states based upon the laws that existed in all those states. See, everyone is happy because we are no longer wasting time with those distractions.

 

You also made a short list of issues that are being "denied", yet all of those issues are in fact being dealt with by the Congress during every session. Saying that the congress is not spending time on these issues is simply wrong. Do you wish them to spend more time on the issues that you listed as being denied at the expense of the issues you feel are distractions? Wouldn't it be nice if the whole congress simply catered to you...

 

Now the last sentence has me confused, in this paragraph are you ranting about the congress, the administration, or both? I guess my argument stands in any event - never mind.

The interconnectivity of the globe is arguably more significant now than at any time during our history, and yet we continue to adhere to us/them mentalities and good old boy ignorance and dishonest tactics. We are losing future leverage and potential solutions to the above referenced problems by burning bridges with others and unilaterally acting on international issues.

In 1945 we unilaterally dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. It does not appear to have ruined our long term relations with that country. Bridges are burned and built all the time.

 

I am curious about what would replace an "us/them" mentality in international relations. Even in a "we" situation, there has to be equitable terms between the members of "we".

 

Btw, it's statements like, "Good old boy ignorance and dishonest tactics" ...which led me to post:

Where is the substance of your argument?

What exactly are you referring to here? This is pure rhetoric with no substance or backing attached. Am I simply to look for things that somehow match your statement and conclude you are right?

The administration has long since lost track of what they are responsible for. They are responsible to the people. They should be accountable for what they do. The people should know what is happening. It’s about accountability. It’s all about accountability. This is why the polls matter. The people aren’t happy. The people want change, yet change is not forthcoming. What we see most consistently is just a continued lack of integrity and insistence on sticking with poor decisions. The administration has opted for a strategy of simply pushing emotional buttons, tactically dumping gasoline on fires to distract us from what started it. It’s about distraction, and I’m hoping to refocus the tiny percent that may actually listen to and agree with what I have to say on the topic.

I disagree that the administration has lost track of what they are responsible for. I think they are aware of their responsibilities, but I disagree with some of their methods for fulfilling their obligations, as do you. This is normal.

 

The people aren't happy, they would like to see a fence built between the US and Mexico, but the President doesn't want one. Do you agree that the majority should rule in this case and a fence should be built between the US and Mexico to prevent illegal immigration?

 

The people want change, but they don't want change for the sake of changing. All deliberate change is a tedious process of debate and compromise. Is this too slow sometimes? Yes, but it is the process, and it is how things are done. This is not a process invented by the current administration or the current congress, it has been this way longer than you and I have been around. And the issues of the past have been just as important as the issues facing us today. It is always easy to make today's fire seem like the worst we have ever faced. As for change of administration, you are familiar with the election cycle...

 

I flatly disagree with your assertion of a lack of integrity of the President.

 

So you say that the administration uses inflamed rhetoric to help drive their agenda. And this makes them different from every other administration in history how??? This differs from your own methods how? Yes, yes, yes; you are not running for office, so what? What stops you from living up to the same standard of fact and honest rhetoric you expect from a chief executive? (Or another member of Hypography?)

 

You are more than welcome to the tiny percentage that may listen to and agree with what you have to say. :)

I’m not just talking liberal or conservative, patriotism or insurgency, or propaganda… I’m talking about a clear and definite need to prevent our culture, our people, and our planet from being run any further into the ground by the enormously impactful decisions being made right now by a small group of powerful people. A significant portion of their decisions are harming us as a planet and a people.

I know you are in disagreement with the current administration, and you have typed many more words to that effect in this post, but you still have not answered how a significant portion of their decisions or any portion of their decisions are harming us as a planet and a people.

 

Bill

[jackson33]

New Ideas..

Iraq war; Gulf war I was fought when Saddam, entered Kuwait, which we had a treaty with. Gulf II was fought for many reasons, shooting at US and British Aircraft protecting the *no fly zone* and refusing to comply with United Nations mandates.

 

GW; the American people, are not opposed to efficiency, clean air/water or use of alternative energy. most are will to go beyond what government mandates and many do just that. The Presidents Texas ranch, is probably less dependent on energy than my little apartment. as for "rest of World", which i suppose does not include Africa, India or China, since this is much or most of the worlds people. Russia, may agree, but you don't think they will change a thing if the economy would suffer.

 

Rain forest; our only such place are the California Redwoods, which are protected from even placing a poster on one tree. wet lands, as well are protected even on private property, where the farmer for decades had planted a crop, can no longer do so. Now the rain forest in Central and South America have been destroyed as their economies and need have progressed.

if Americans were involved, I don't know why or how...

 

America could be: the US, is a fantastic place to live. setting the bar may be a little overboard, since we operate under law/government to our conditions through the years. the social structures of Europe have been around much longer, which we took the best of and moved on...

 

Bush leadership; again, i will leave it to the historian to judge the mans effect on his people. IMO; he has done things never done before, such as leading a vibrant economy, through a mainland strike on that economies heart, fought two wars, been tormented by Castro and OBL, want a bee's around the world, yet has maintained his composure. this he did for the country, which he equaled for the people of Texas for 8 years. thats 16 years of his life and his family given as service, which the founders of this nation, I feel would was more than acceptable compliance to their wishes...

[InfiniteNow]

I feel like I'm trying to discuss evolution with a creationist. Never mind, mate. My position must be completely invalid because I use broad and inclusive comments while discussing it.

 

Glad your kids education is so stellar. I'd be curious to see how they stack up against children of their same age from other nations.

 

The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

[New-ideas]

Jackson33,

I still feel that America is not stepping up too the plate, on a global scale. It seems to me that America is seeing things from an almost selfish persepective, with no consideration of the rest of humanity, the US has established itself as the worlds most powerful nation, that is clear. In my opinion, it must now step up to its responsilities in the world, and see beyond its own intrests, it is only in this way that humanity can evolve as a whole.

[jackson33]

Jackson33,

I still feel that America is not stepping up too the plate, on a global scale. It seems to me that America is seeing things from an almost selfish persepective, with no consideration of the rest of humanity, the US has established itself as the worlds most powerful nation, that is clear. In my opinion, it must now step up to its responsilities in the world, and see beyond its own intrests, it is only in this way that humanity can evolve as a whole.

 

your tone is moderate, which i will try to follow; the US, or should i say its people, are the first ones to aid in any disaster, where ever and regardless of political differences. the government requires being asked, under international and US law and abides, but the people are not held back and do so assist under many organized entities. even in Iraq and Afghanistan today the soldiers on off duty time will assist in building or refurbishing infrastructure, i might add as many of the coalition troops.

 

since your interest seem to be in GW, probably seen as a man made cause, i can only tell some of the very many things we went through before GW was an issue or any government involved itself with mandates. our average car, today expels about 1/3 the CO2, of the cars of the 1950's did in addition to getting 3-4-5 times the mileage from a gallon of gas. our 1960-70 trucks operating on diesel got 2-3 mpg, literally dumping CO2 into the atmosphere, todays its 8-10 MPG with 10% of the unwanted element being refined out prior to being pumped into the vehicle. industry from those refineries to the thousands of industrial plants at one time all had billowing smoke stacks, which no long billow anything. fire was used in every dump yard and back yard in the country to get rid of trash and waste, which no longer happens. in the 40-50-60, you didn't need to drive anyplace to see smoke from some fire, but today you can drive for a week, never seeing smoke from any fire. this is attitude or if you like setting an example.

 

you may hear about the US and producing 25% of some total of CO2, but you won't hear that we also have the most acreage of forest, which store carbon and require this CO2 to exist. you won't hear of the agriculture fields, feed lots that produce far more than 25% of the food the planet consumes. no one is going to mention even that 25% of all mans contribution is 5% of all that enters the atmosphere (nature 95%) and no one will tell you how small all these totals are to what is our atmosphere.

 

Bush, knows all this, has many advisor's to keep him updated and has chosen to accept what good comes from our action, opposed to the bad which would happen if we stopped, stalled or cease these programs. there may only be a few million more deaths from starvation or maybe a few other dead victims of genocide in the millions which always seem to follow bad times, but to him and many in this country the answer for a total world success lays in the continuous striving to join all people into some form of capitalist/democratic society.

[New-ideas]

The US may aid the world when it is in need, but it is also known as the nation which continually steps into international conflict without due consideration, almost acting as if its a global police force, which it is not. The US continually tries to control global resources, and is even willing to do this by force. Two acts of war in just under 50 years, this fact alone speaks volumes.

 

Also, you seem to either be passing off global warming as unimportant, or as an uncontrollable issue, the facts are undeniable, are planet will face severe environmental repercussions if action is not taken, which the US is not doing.

 

Bush himself does not do what is best, even for the US itself, the Iraq war was not a quest for democracy, we see that from the 650,000+ death toll, it was his own confused agenda, in seizing global resources and carrying on what seems to be a far fetched legacy from father to son.

[TheBigDog]

I feel like I'm trying to discuss evolution with a creationist. Never mind, mate. My position must be completely invalid because I use broad and inclusive comments while discussing it.

 

Glad your kids education is so stellar. I'd be curious to see how they stack up against children of their same age from other nations.

 

The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

Your analogy is backward. An advocate of evolution presents factual evidence; an advocate of creation relies upon rhetoric in place of facts.

 

Bill

[freeztar]

Environmental damage; there is not much we can do for Animal life, outside our zoo's and pets, since Animals have no way to clean up there mess after killing, eating or even in death. there are scavengers, which do a pretty good job, but the process is slow and some damage will happen.

 

Huh?

[InfiniteNow]

Howdy Bill,

 

You are attempting to bring my statements into little boxes so you can target them more easily in your attack. I am sharing these thoughts as expressions of a broad ideology that we are a single planet and need to join together to tackle some very real challenges. I am just sharing my opinion here, and yet you’re approaching me like I’ve just proposed a new theory on atomic structure and photosynthesis. However, it appears you won’t let up until I respond to you point by point, on your playing field, so I’ll concede this one and address you with the quid pro quo you’ve used in your responses to me.

 

There are limits to what a country can do to educate people, especially those who are unwilling participants in the process.

Yes, silly me. I presumed that was a given. I was wrong for not calling out such an obvious fact.

 

As for representation, if you disagree with the current administration, lucky for you we have periodic elections. You have your opportunity for change just around the corner.

Well, actually, the current administration wasn’t elected, so that makes your point above questionable.

 

If you feel especially unrepresented, maybe you live in the wrong state. Another great feature of the US is our diversity. There are plenty of place you could live with like minded individuals. Your choice.

Okay, but what happens when this “like minded group” represents the great majority of the population? Are we all to move to Canada? That’s sort of sad.

 

The agendas you list and the methods you mention are coming from all directions. It is (for better or for worse) how our federal government has evolved into operating.

Unfortunately, this evolution to which you refer is artificial… not natural, and implementation of these operational changes has increased during these last seven years.

 

Here is the problem, what you list as "distractions" are to other citizens meaningful issues.

Why is this a problem?

 

Immigration is a huge issue with the majority of the population. Weapons of mass destruction is a global issue that we are dealing with globally.

Okay.

 

You may not like the methods by which we are dealing with it…

Some of the methods are working okay, but I must admit that I do, overall, disagree with the current methods being used.

 

… but if you say it is not an issue (just a distraction) I would ask you to describe why.

I never said that, so I guess we don’t have an issue. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Flag Burning and Gay Marriage are an interesting pair that we have dealt with before. In both cases I agree that they should never have been raised as issues to begin with.

Okay, but they were, and continue to be for many.

Flag burning should still be legal based upon the ruling of the Supreme Court,

I can buy toilet paper printed with graphics of the flag and wipe my dirty *** with it, and I should be able to burn one for whatever reason I feel like. The Supreme Court acknowledging this simply is of added benefit so I don’t get into trouble with the law when doing so.

 

…and Gay Marriage should still be illegal in all 50 states based upon the laws that existed in all those states.

Yes, we’ve covered this in another thread specific to the issue, and what I will say is that you are, on a very fundamental level, wrong when you support this.

 

See, everyone is happy because we are no longer wasting time with those distractions.

Sure, those who have their morality legislated are really happy. Excellent point. Golly. I sure missed the boat on that one. However, not spending time legislating these issues and using them as distractions to the populace would be a very good thing.

 

You also made a short list of issues that are being "denied", yet all of those issues are in fact being dealt with by the Congress during every session.

Okay, I suppose you could interpret what I said in this extreme manner. That’s one way of going about it. The point is that too little time is being spent on bigger, global, difficult issues, and too much time is being spent rousing people with emotional issues and trying to legislate morality.

 

Saying that the congress is not spending time on these issues is simply wrong.

Yes, you’re correct. I suppose it’s a good thing that’s not what I said.

 

Do you wish them to spend more time on the issues that you listed as being denied at the expense of the issues you feel are distractions?

Hmm… I feel like you’re trying to paint me into a corner. How can I respond? The conflict I feel, the confusion. Gosh. Would I rather our elected officials and administration spent more time on global climate change, environmental improvement, population growth, healthcare, science, and gathering global consensus… instead of gay marriage (since this is such an easy change), immigration, stem cell research blocking, flag burning, and lining the pockets of their friends? Hmmm…

 

Yes.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if the whole congress simply catered to you...

Well, I suppose it would, but again you take the most extreme stance to paint me as some idiot.

 

In 1945 we unilaterally dropped two atomic bombs on Japan. It does not appear to have ruined our long term relations with that country.

First, there was much more there that knocks down your presentation of this decision being unilateral, namely, the others who were already engaged in the war with us. But, perhaps you should ask those people who were hit by the bomb, or their families, if they did or did not feel ruined by our actions.

 

Bridges are burned and built all the time.

I guess that’s as good a reason as any to keep burning them. Why burn a bridge and waste time later rebuilding it when it could be avoided?

 

I am curious about what would replace an "us/them" mentality in international relations.

How about just “us.”

 

Btw, it's statements like, "Good old boy ignorance and dishonest tactics" ...which led me to post:

“Where is the substance of your argument?”

What exactly are you referring to here? This is pure rhetoric with no substance or backing attached.

Your question above is akin to you asking me to count the grains of rice in Asia. Were you beat up by rhetoric as a child or something?

 

Am I simply to look for things that somehow match your statement and conclude you are right?

You should have concluded I am right long ago, but you can spend as much time as you want finding reasons why. I have no problem with that.

 

I disagree that the administration has lost track of what they are responsible for.

That’s your opinion. I might agree with you if we replaced the word “responsible” with the word “pillaging.”

 

I think they are aware of their responsibilities, but I disagree with some of their methods for fulfilling their obligations, as do you. This is normal.

Indeed. What I am calling to attention is the magnitude of the failure in their methods.

 

The people aren't happy, they would like to see a fence built between the US and Mexico, but the President doesn't want one.

Are you watching Fox News again? This is as biased a view on the topic as I’ve seen in some time.

 

Do you agree that the majority should rule in this case and a fence should be built between the US and Mexico to prevent illegal immigration?

Well, first I’d like to learn more about this majority who wants a fence. Then, I’d comment that a fence will do nothing to curb illegal immigration, and that immigration occurs between many other countries other than Mexico. Considering these statements, I’d suggest that my response to your question is unnecessary, and happily await your attack on my posting style for choosing this route.

 

The people want change, but they don't want change for the sake of changing.

Agreed.

 

All deliberate change is a tedious process of debate and compromise.

No it’s not. Some climates are more conducive to change than others. Some political administrations welcome and encourage change better than others.

 

Is this too slow sometimes? Yes, but it is the process, and it is how things are done.

I take serious offense at your approach of throwing your hands up in the air as if to say, “That’s just the way it is, nothing we can do about it.”

 

This is not a process invented by the current administration or the current congress, it has been this way longer than you and I have been around.

The process being used right now is fundamentally different than what was intended. It gets back to the spirit of the law. I will give credit to the administration for their ability to manipulate the process to their purpose, but my concern is that their purpose is not the benefit of the people of the US, nor the international community.

 

And the issues of the past have been just as important as the issues facing us today.

No actually, the issues we are facing today are more important and we need to deal with them. Issues of the past are past. We have new challenges and problems which need to be addressed, and many of them are not receiving that attention.

 

It is always easy to make today's fire seem like the worst we have ever faced.

The funny thing about your comment, if it can be considered funny… today’s fires are bigger than most, and yet we focus on flag burning and the like.

 

As for change of administration, you are familiar with the election cycle...

Again, I take serious issue with your approach of “That’s just the way it is, no bother trying to make things better.”

 

I flatly disagree with your assertion of a lack of integrity of the President.

That’s fine. It’s your opinion. You and I clearly have different definitions of integrity though.

 

So you say that the administration uses inflamed rhetoric to help drive their agenda.

No I didn’t. I said that the administration uses distraction and hot button issues to avoid accountability and attention to deeper issues and problems associated with their actions.

 

And this makes them different from every other administration in history how???

The issue is the agenda itself.

 

This differs from your own methods how? Yes, yes, yes; you are not running for office, so what? What stops you from living up to the same standard of fact and honest rhetoric you expect from a chief executive? (Or another member of Hypography?)

That’s easy. I’m hear trying to sway opinion to what I think is a better perspective. They are making decisions which impact the entire globe and everyone on it, as well as our children and our children’s children. But, I suppose I can see how your point above is relevant…

 

You are more than welcome to the tiny percentage that may listen to and agree with what you have to say. ;)

See… there you go again, attacking the substance of my posts and not me. I thank you for that. Of course I cannot argue with such infallible logic.

 

I know you are in disagreement with the current administration, and you have typed many more words to that effect in this post, but you still have not answered how a significant portion of their decisions or any portion of their decisions are harming us as a planet and a people.

To quench your thirst for real examples, I’ll offer two. Short-sighted environmental policy. Using religious belief as a motivation to block medical advancement. Again, I must reiterate my point, your request is akin to asking me to count all of the grains of rice in Asia.

 

You can continue to attack my style of presentation and my decision not to limit my points with single examples, but it makes my tone and approach no less valid.

[Southtown]

You can continue to attack my style of presentation and my decision not to limit my points with single examples, but it makes my tone and approach no less valid.

You would be more convincing otherwise, and you're discussion with Bill would less resemble sword-fighting with wet noodles. It would probably be slightly shorter-lived as well.

 

To quench your thirst for real examples, I’ll offer two. Short-sighted environmental policy. Using religious belief as a motivation to block medical advancement. Again, I must reiterate my point, your request is akin to asking me to count all of the grains of rice in Asia.

I'd respond to these points, but it doesn't appear that you want to discuss them, since you are intentionally too vague for a response. I can only guess at what you're talking about. Therefore, I have to either remain in disagreement or accept you blindly because you have a calm style and a nifty avatar.

[InfiniteNow]

Iraq, and the misinformation used to support our initiation of the action, and complete miscalculation and failure since being there.

 

Set the all time record in denying protection of endangered species.

 

Cheney ignored executive order concerning classified information for the past four years, and attempted to abolish the office responsible for enforcing the order.

 

Took an inherited federal budget surplus of $230B and transformed it into a deficit easily over $200B and a debt of $8.8 trillion.

 

Transformed almost universal worldwide support into worldwide condemnation and angst after 9/11.

 

In October of 2004, with no public ceremony (on Air Force One), the president signed a $136 billion corporate tax cut bill which included special pork-barrel earmarks for tobacco companies, oil refineries, SUV buyers and more.

 

Chief U.S. weapons inspector Charles Duelfer reports that Iraq had no biological or chemical weapons and no nuclear program before the U.S. invasion and Duelfer found no evidence that Iraq had produced any WMDs after 1991.

 

President Bush and House Republicans allow the federal ban on assault weapons to expire in September of 2004.

 

Veto of stem cell research.

 

Overstepping in domestic wire tapping, approval of spying on US calls and emails for the past five years and lying about it. Refusing to work with Congress to rework the existing law on this, and total blockage of all investigations into the matter.

 

Attorney General Scandal. Scooter Libby, release of CIA agent information, shooting people in the face with a shotgun…

 

Friendly with major corporations, pharmaceutical, and big oil. Appointment of private company representatives to major positions with clear agendas.

 

Secret prisons and torture, lying to the public about it. Guantanamo Bay indiscretion, heavy legal activity to restrict voting in districts not heavily republican.

 

Lack of real effort and deadlines on global warming and environmental regulations.

 

Patriot Act which curtailed the freedoms we are fighting for.

 

Cut taxes three times significantly reducing the burden on the rich. Failed to follow-up on promises to Katrina victims.

 

Abuse of the concept of patriotism, putting the burden of his debt on our children, and the list goes on…

 

 

Really, can you at least limit the request to a specific month or week of transgressions?

 

I really would need several research assistants to capture all of the failures and self-serving actions for which the Bush administration is responsible... just during his second term. I'd need a post doctoral research grant to capture all of those in which occurred during his first term.

[InfiniteNow]

Here's a more extensive list, but it admittedly is a bit one sided. It is, however, pretty robust:

 

One Thousand Reasons: The List

[CraigD]

To quench your thirst for real examples, I’ll offer two. Short-sighted environmental policy. Using religious belief as a motivation to block medical advancement.

I'd respond to these points, but it doesn't appear that you want to discuss them, since you are intentionally too vague for a response. I can only guess at what you're talking about.

I’m a bit vague at how “[the Bush administration has a] short-sighted environmental policy” can be construed as a “real example”. I believe that the Bush administration’s environmental policy is poorer than many previous administrations, based on such data and analysis as that provided by the League of Conservation Voters, and anecdotal reports from several personal friends who are long-time USEPA employees (I live near one of the EPA’s larger research campuses), but am unable to cite a particular example in support of the complicated claim that the Bush administration has a short-sighted environmental policy.

 

On the second example, I believe InfiniteNow is referring to President George W. Bush’s 9/20/2006 veto and 6/22/2007 veto of legislation lifted limits on federally funded research on embryonic stem cells. Bush has issued public statements citing relegious reasons for both vetos, which proponents of embryonic stem cell research have criticized as based on scientifically inaccurate data.

You would be more convincing otherwise, and you're discussion with Bill would less resemble sword-fighting with wet noodles. It would probably be slightly shorter-lived as well.

I share Southtown’s chagrin (or is it amusement?) at the wet noodle fight/debate between 2 of our most respected members, and would add my own additional chagrin that, in my opinion, this thread has become a shouting match of political ideologies, nearly completely devoid of scientific objectivity, and an appeal to both InfiniteNow and TheBigDog to consider whether such debate is in keeping with the hypography’s goal of promoting science.