Are we nothing but "robots?"

[automatic existence]

[First, I have searced and looked around but could not find this quesion or one very similar. Since it is a very known and interesting subject I thought that was strange. So if it is such a thread somewhere just shut this down and remove it.]

 

This is a very old and very familiar question but I find it to be highly misunderstood, as almost everything else. I wish to present a "new" cognitive way of making the quesiton. The behavorist school in psychology did this without taking the cognitive part into account. And they where very "succsesful" with it, at least among the public. But the way I see it we might be robots in another way. That thought is based on the following assumptions:

 

- We do not have free will, we are governed to a fullclose to full extent by our genes and our surroundings.

- That evolutional therory in general is correct and some of the main assumpitons in affective nevroscience too.

 

I presume it actually presupposes much more, but this is what i base my question on.

 

Ill start off simple. If we do not have free will but are controled by outside forces which again is the same and our emotions is nothing but evolutionery "fail safes" (see affective neruoscience) we do not have much left. Even if we do have a small amount of free will, what will be left to take the choices if our emotions are only "automatic responses" and our intellect to some extent only is a way of pleasing the emotions and biological needs.

 

Ill give this as the foundation of the discussion and will elaborate further if anyone answers.

If someone think the foundations are wrong it would be very helpful to know.

 

Edit: Some horrible errors

[Tormod]

We have discussed it before but probably in various guises and hidden in various topics.

 

But I'll bite (before I go to bed): If there is an outside force governing our wills, how would you go about in order to detect it?

[automatic existence]

How did we discover gravity or genes? These are outside forces that determine a lot for us. Maybe I misunderstood you, but I dont see the difficulty in discovering something just because its outside ourselvs.

[Tormod]

How did we discover gravity or genes? These are outside forces that determine a lot for us. Maybe I misunderstood you, but I dont see the difficulty in discovering something just because its outside ourselvs.

 

You misunderstood. If an outside force is acting upon us and denying us free will (regardless of whether that force is conscious or not) - how would you prove it's existence? And how would you prove it's effects?

[Tormod]

Note that my question above concerns the part of your opening post which asks "If we do not have free wil but are controled by outside forces which again is the same and our emotions is nothing but evolutionery "fail safes" (see effective neruoscience) we do not have much left...."

[automatic existence]

I see (I think), you meant whether or not it is verifiable? Well that is a though one. I have a tendency to dout most things, but that also tends to stop all meaningfull disscusion. I would say that as far as we can prove anything it should not be a problem to prove the existence of certain things. I.e. if we can deside how big of an impact genes and society (surroundigs] have on us a lot would already be done. Then if we also discover the reasons for why and how our emotions, perosnality and intellect works I believe we could come very close to an understandig of how much these things determine our lives. And you dont doubt that we can come to a better understading of these thing, do you? And these are of course the only type of "forces" I am talking about. Not in the way of spirituality if that was implied.

[Tormod]

Yes, I mean whether it is verifiable or not. There are proponents of both camps here - those who think there is free will, and those who think (!) there is no such thing.

 

I do struggle a bit with the notion that genes and society are "forces", but I see your point. The heredity vs upbringing debate will probably never end. In my opinion we are shaped by both, but I have a slightly brighter look on things than you do. I think that not only do we have free will, but we are also in a position to change our surroundings. We are not yet able to change our genes at will (but we can change the genes of unborn babies - it's a step but I'm not sure I like the direction of it).

 

And you dont doubt that we can come to a better understading of these thing, do you?

 

No, I don't doubt that. There aren't many things we cannot come to a better understanding of. :lol:

[automatic existence]

I find the heredity vs upbringing debate very interesting along with the free will vs determinaton (to some extent) very interesting, but do not feel I have the qualifications to comment on that. But anyway I think my question still stands. You agree that we are shaped, would you say rather much?, by both of "the two." But still, even if we agree that we have a considerable amount of space to make our own decisions, those decisions are mainly based on either emotion or intellect, alternatively personality. Personally I believe that we are fairly ****ed to put it simple. We do not have the great contol over ourselves that we belive we do. Which is kind of the reason for me posting this. Now, a popular position is that this is a "dark view", and who the hell wants a dark view on things? I sure dont. I just wanted to point out a way that our emotions can control our intellect. Then again, by my point of view we go beyond bright and dark, positive and negative but these are really rooted in us and therefore I believe that we fail to keep a good sense of judgement.

 

Anyway, what do you think about the topic if you wold include; emotion and rationality in your last post. Then again you might say that these come from our genes and our society but have you considered those inn your judgment and your "bright" concluison in the previous post?

 

When it comes to our possibility to change our surroundings and future genes, this doesnt have anything to do with the case. That is my view. This is why: It takes a good while before you can change your surroundings in the "critical" (young) years you are unable of this. Secondly, if we would choose to change our surroundingsfuture genes it would depend on what? Our past surroundings and genes. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Fishteacher73]

I find the heredity vs upbringing debate very interesting along with the free will vs determinaton (to some extent) very interesting, but do not feel I have the qualifications to comment on that. But anyway I think my question still stands. You agree that we are shaped, would you say rather much?, by both of "the two." But still, even if we agree that we have a considerable amount of space to make our own decisions, those decisions are mainly based on either emotion or intellect, alternatively personality. Personally I believe that we are fairly #&(%ed to put it simple. We do not have the great contol over ourselves that we belive we do. Which is kind of the reason for me posting this. Now, a popular position is that this is a "dark view", and who the hell wants a dark view on things? I sure dont. I just wanted to point out a way that our emotions can control our intellect. Then again, by my point of view we go beyond bright and dark, positive and negative but these are really rooted in us and therefore I believe that we fail to keep a good sense of judgement.

 

Anyway, what do you think about the topic if you wold include; emotion and rationality in your last post. Then again you might say that these come from our genes and our society but have you considered those inn your judgment and your "bright" concluison in the previous post?

 

When it comes to our possibility to change our surroundings and future genes, this doesnt have anything to do with the case. That is my view. This is why: It takes a good while before you can change your surroundings in the "critical" (young) years you are unable of this. Secondly, if we would choose to change our surroundingsfuture genes it would depend on what? Our past surroundings and genes. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

 

While the aspect of a determinist world may not be the most comforting idea, I personally can see no option outside of accepting it unless you want to invoke a supernatural force. This does not seem to solve any more problems other than to raise them in my opinion. While the lack of "free will" dos not eleminate the inevitable process. We know what is going to the outcome of a rollercoaster, but is still fun to ride. We all know what the inevitable outcome for life is, but we are still all along for the ride.

[UncleAl]

If we do not have free will but are controled by outside forces

Less The Matrix more quantum mechanics. The information necessary to specify the structure of a milliliter of water (or meat) could not be encoded in all the matter in the universe. Everything simply is. Nothing could possibly, rationally be in charge locally or otherwise.

 

But GOD! Irrational spew followed by demands for alms is a test of faith.

[bartock]

I find the heredity vs upbringing debate very interesting along with the free will vs determinaton (to some extent) very interesting, but do not feel I have the qualifications to comment on that. But anyway I think my question still stands. You agree that we are shaped, would you say rather much?, by both of "the two." But still, even if we agree that we have a considerable amount of space to make our own decisions, those decisions are mainly based on either emotion or intellect, alternatively personality. Personally I believe that we are fairly #&(%ed to put it simple. We do not have the great contol over ourselves that we belive we do. Which is kind of the reason for me posting this. Now, a popular position is that this is a "dark view", and who the hell wants a dark view on things? I sure dont. I just wanted to point out a way that our emotions can control our intellect. Then again, by my point of view we go beyond bright and dark, positive and negative but these are really rooted in us and therefore I believe that we fail to keep a good sense of judgement.

one is definately shaped.

if we think that every thing that we do is based on heredity then that is determinism(then one denies himself the freedom to choose).i dont like the sound of eugenics.but in eugenics also, one gets to choose(remember nazi germany)

being able to choose means one uses his free will.

one can control his emotions.when emotions are not controled they could lead to insanity.

emotions can only control intellect if they are allowed to ,by the intellect.

[automatic existence]

Less The Matrix more quantum mechanics. The information necessary to specify the structure of a milliliter of water (or meat) could not be encoded in all the matter in the universe. Everything simply is. Nothing could possibly, rationally be in charge locally or otherwise.

 

But GOD! Irrational spew followed by demands for alms is a test of faith.

 

While I must admit never to have thought of Matrix relevant to this, i take your first comment as a , probably justifiable, shot at my approach to the question. But I admit that I have not taken the necessary steps to understand most aspects of the main debate of free will.

 

On the other hand, I wish you would elaborate on your answer. Is what you say commonly agreed upon or is it one side with a fairly equal oppositon? Maybe we just dont, as of now, understand how it is possible to have a control mechanism? And, if I understood correctly, is it not troublesome applaying structures meant for sub-atomic particles to the macrocosmos?

 

I start to fall more towards, what I belive is a simplification on Spinozas view, the view that most "lagrer happenings" are determined and without choice, but at a personal level we do have some small choices as whether to drink coffe or tea to the breakfeast. I see this as a temporary belief, something to have before i increase my understanding of the subject.

 

Yes, normative conclusions drawn on descriptive grounds can often be a real test of faith, but you are not seeing the whole picture. There does not exist anything else. Its a scary thought which I try do disregard, but I really think that if you follow everything back to its logical necessary beginnings it will be irrational no matter what. Even mathematics. (Obs. Controversial statement.)

 

"It is not contrary to reason to prefer the destruction of the whole world to the scratching of my finger." - David Hume, A Treatise upon Human Nature (1739)

[Dark Mind]

automatic existence, I'd just like it if you took this IQ test... for your (our :lol:) age, you seem exceptionally intelligent, at least compared to my peers over here in the States :hihi:.

 

Here's the link: IQ Test

 

Just take the "Ultimate IQ Test", the test for exceptional intelligence is more like a two hour ordeal that most would just rather not deal with, myself included :lol:.

[niviene]

I like your ideas, automatic_existence. In my opinion, the fact that you are wondering and asking about them is enough to say that you are more aware of your existence than 99% of the planet (something I feel most of the posters in this forum also enjoy). I'm sure many of us think about it, but it's kind of a question with no answer. Who can give you such an answer? It's almost like a religion in itself with whatever you choose to believe on the subject, because all anyone can do is think about it and give their opinions. It's one of those things I often find myself laying awake at night thinking about. I'm sure many of us can say the same. :hihi:

 

Welcome aboard. :lol:

[Dark Mind]

I know I can :hihi:. 3 hours every night I lay awake pondering the meaning/purpose of life... Of course my mind will tend to stray to other stuff as well :lol:. But I start out thinking about life :lol:.

 

I don't get much sleep :lol:.

[Dark Mind]

Until we can eliminate the free radicals in our system so that we might live forever I think that most people do just want to make the most of the short time they have on Earth.

 

It seems like you interpretting this the same way as "Live life to fulfill it's meaning" :hihi:... Until someone can prove me otherwise I think I'll just adopt the same idea I've had since I was a kid. Life has no meaning. Due to this though, one would generally assume that life then has no purpose... I wouldn't challenge that when it's laid on such general terms as those, but I do believe you can create your own purpose in life. This only serves to create the illusion of meaning which makes an individual feel like they are worth something more than the basic carbon structure from which we are all created (I think God is a lump of carbon, we are, after all, created in his image :lol:).

 

Perhaps the meaning of life is to find the purpose of life :lol:.

 

:lol:

 

Okay, my mind's getting over loaded with new ideas, I'm just gonna take it easy for a while... :lol:

 

Gotta love Hypography :lol:.

Perhaps this will help :lol:.

[emessay]

Other people say that we are nothing but transformers. What a magic of coil in universe !! Imagine a coil of DNA, a coil of galaxy and a coil of transformer[electric power or radio frequency ].

Wikipedia defines a transformer is a device used to transfer electric energy from one circuit to another, especially a pair of multiply wound, inductively coupled wire coils that effect such a transfer with a change in voltage, current, phase, or other electric characteristic.

 

Till we may whisper that probably we're transformers from 'god energy' to observe reality.