Skycar, or 飞行龙汽车游遍空气非常快速和相当?

[alxian]

While Moller has not yet given up on the NA market in order to launch the Skycar revolution as a business man he has turned to overseas markets who have a more immediate interest.

 

http://www.moller.com

 

how would you like to fly one of these bad boys to work in 15 minutes in a virtual highway in the sky?

 

Moller courts the chinese market

 

The potential to co-develop the Skycar along with China (government and business) is becoming more promising as we have met with a representative of the largest aircraft manufacturer in China (with over 50,000 employees). Their stated goal is to show the Skycar at the 2008 Olympics (to be held in China) as a co-developed Chinese-American project.

 

2008?! so soon? wow.. i frankly thought i'd die before buying either a skycar or fuel cell electric was affordable. Looks like they may tap-out and go into mass production in time for me to actually enjoy them (being young enough still to be able to drive either without assistance).

 

Perhaps Skycar racing through dowtown Beijing might generate the needed interest from Jo-every-red-blooded-american.

 

More than likely they will bite and by 2020 the richer chinese business men may have personal skycraft bouncing around China. Apparently they are more interested than the US because unlike the US most of China does not have an adequately paved infrastructure to meet expected growth. The Skycar will allow those who can afford one much more freedom than Ford Chevrolet or GM offers us.

 

Also for now China has more relaxed pollution regulations so that the gas powered conveyance won't be as restricted in China as in the US. If however a fully electric fuel cell powered version can be created after the Chinese have invested perhaps then might the US take an interest?

 

How about instead of propellers an ion wind version? no emmission and no noise. (though ionized exhaust may be carcinogenic...)

[Buffy]

Its not the interest or the pollution, its the FAA (restrictions on where flying vehicles can go and at what altitudes), local traffic laws (the car on the right has the right of way, but how about the car above you? is there an "up" turn indicator?), and more than *anything* insurance companies and litigous product liability attorneys...

 

"Where are the flying cars? I was promised flying cars!"

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[pgrmdave]

I can't see flying cars being more efficient than grounded cars. At least, not without some sort of lighter-than-air material on it or in it - like a hot air balloon.

[alxian]

i love that reply, since i love to ignore the FAA "thing" is a real obstacle, its about more US government sticking their thumbs where they don't belong than the machine not being viable. because of all the money they spent creating the road infrastructure in the first place. their bockheaded belief that the roads they've built will satisfy the demands of the relatively fewer people using them.

 

 

as for roads and traffic systems i think the ground vehicle and skycar control centers will be separate.

 

we have yet to actually see highways become automated. the coutry most likely to do it first is german. their autobahn system, the longer straighter sections that people are most likely to open up their custom built car on will for the more timid require automation. for security and to keep up with the speed freaks.

 

once terrestrial traffic is mostly automated that system can be modified, merge, with air traffic control systems to control skyways.

 

more likely than not though at slower speeds ground based traffic will remain mostly under the control of the drivers, but skyways will be impossible to navigate in the light powerful and nimble later generation skycraft. thus air traffic control is essential, as you said.

 

in the states as well as germany they may never relinquish control of their vehicles to a computer. in China though and perhaps japan where the traffic regulations are lax to non existant perhaps automation won't even be possible. all people would require is GPS and instruction on how to fly their 200K skycraft. later once more and more people are flying them cell phone like towers will be able to track vehicles in heavy traffic areas. there would be no flyzone around more populated areas require people to adhere to skyways, these will have to be automated much like the sky around a busy airport should be automated.

 

China gets them first. great, they will be manufacturing them anyway they might as well have a hand in their development. but who follows their lead? german japan or the US? likely japan then german then the US. japan out of proximity and the ability for people to fly from china to japan, more than likely this will lead to bigger skycraft able to carry loads of cargo very quickly but at much higher risk. germany being obsessed with speed could virtualize the sky above the autobahn, fairly easily done since the highway already has so much surveillance equipement observing most of its length. the US would thus have access in 15-20 years to a tried tested and true skycar and infrastructure plan, which they can adapt and improve... i.e. reduce the cost and cover the eastern sea board with skycraft automated control towers and vital interstates in the middle of the continent and some of california.

 

i wouldn't doubt that by then someone will try to fly from japan to cali. if they manage that then its a fair bet the vehicle will gain massive credibility.

[Buffy]

Bah! Who needs efficiency? Dubya worked hard to make sure that the transportation bill he signed this morning did not have efficiency standards. Thus by definition it is not a priority for America. If we're gonna have a Skycar, it shouldn't be a little wimpy thing like the Moller, we need Hummer Skycar! Dang the gas mileage and full speed ahead!

 

But no kiddin, heck think of the energy you have to put out just to hover at a red light!

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[rockytriton]

Do you have a translation for "飞行龙汽车游遍空气非常快速和相当"? I know a little chinese but not enough to tranlate it. From what I can tell, it says something like "flys (something) car (something) air extremely fast and equivalent".

 

EDIT: Well, babelfish says this, though I don't know how correct it is: "The flight dragon automobile swims the air to be extremely fast and quite."

[alxian]

wow.. thats an impressive thought.. somthing like a hummer getting off of the ground a rocketing around socal... i'm scared.

 

dubya has had little to do with keeping the skycar down, as thus i hold no rancor for his particular administration, its more about the way the US refuses generally to invest in new (30 years or younger) technology in favor of upgrading what they already have (spa-ce shu-ttle).

[Buffy]

as for roads and traffic systems i think the ground vehicle and skycar control centers will be separate.

So how do I get my Hummer Skycar into the parking lot at Wal-Mart?

the coutry most likely to do it first is german. their autobahn system, the longer straighter sections that people are most likely to open up their custom built car on will for the more timid require automation.

Oh the folks with Porche 959's will all go to skycars, leaving the 'bahn's for the "timid" so there's no need for computer controlled traffic...

....but skyways will be impossible to navigate in the light powerful and nimble later generation skycraft. thus air traffic control is essential, as you said.

This really cannot be done economically until its entirely automated, and the only choice one will have is to say "I want to go to San Jose" and the thing would take you there, with no intermediate help (or at least long delays due to having to have the central system recompute altenate routes). Then its no longer cool and no one wants to do it.

i wouldn't doubt that by then someone will try to fly from japan to cali. if they manage that then its a fair bet the vehicle will gain massive credibility.

You got an energy problem there though. The range on these things is not very good with current technology, and where do you "pull over" if something breaks?

 

Practically impractical,

Buffy

[alxian]

Do you have a translation for "飞行龙汽车游遍空气非常快速和相当"? "flys (something) car (something) air extremely fast and equivalent".

 

"The flight dragon automobile swims the air to be extremely fast and quite."

 

thats pretty close.

 

dragon car flying through the air very fast and quite. although i don't remember my exact wording.

 

as buffy said the m400 looks like a cessna with nacelles grafted on, and for now is about as safe a home built v22 osprey (wich is only slightly safer than ones built by the shoe-string-budget US military) what we need is something like a the craft from the old game slipstream 5000, something with a monocoque design and much more power and carrying capacity not to mention need to be "safe" i.e. if it fight with a cloud obscured mountain the family inside will be able to walk away.

 

i wish passenger jets were built like hummers. considering the amount of people they need to carry safetly hither to yon.

[alxian]

So how do I get my Hummer Skycar into the parking lot at Wal-Mart?

 

if the ceiling was reenforced i'd park mine there and take an elevator.

 

Oh the folks with Porche 959's will all go to skycars, leaving the 'bahn's for the "timid" so there's no need for computer controlled traffic...This really cannot be done economically until its entirely automated, and the only choice one will have is to say "I want to go to San Jose" and the thing would take you there, with no intermediate help (or at least long delays due to having to have the central system recompute altenate routes).

 

precisely correct, as with your first post. until the roads are automated they can't hope to automated several hundred thousand skycraft. however they will have to else they will not fly within city limits, which basically is what moller is saying, you can't park in your own backyard, you can park at a local skyport where a controller can monitor entire districts.

 

it would be like taking your car to the commuter train station and commuting from their to close by to your destination. commercial and industrial zones much as they have helipads now will prolly have on site parking and control for skycraft.

 

one method of creating a skyway is satelite based GPS, the lag would be deadly if it had to control your car, your car would control itself and its route would be streamed to it. that system exists now.

 

another more hightech way to do it is using HSV ultraviolet laser light and poles to create real visible light ways. the lasers ionize the air making it glow. (another something airports could consider. the laser lightways would be best in cities where the poles extend from the tops of buildings and draw their power from them, outside of town along interstates powerline pole could be replaced at intervals with these laser poles creating a skyway along highways, if you somehow lose site of the glowing lines in the sky (during daylight hours, and somehow your computer also loses contact with the repeaters on the poles then you can just follow the highway, a sensible thing to do since if you crash you can walk up to the highway and signal for help.

 

 

Then its no longer cool and no one wants to do it.You got an energy problem there though. The range on these things is not very good with current technology, and *where do you "pull over" if something breaks?*

 

Practically impractical,

Buffy

 

err.. see above?

 

the range can be extended. the engine though high tech have been built by a very small team. once entire corporations start to tackle the design they will be able to increase safety cargo capacity aesthetics and range.

[Buffy]

if the ceiling was reenforced i'd park mine there and take an elevator.

Hehe, you haven't seen what happens when a Wal-Mart collides with a tornado then....

...which basically is what moller is saying, you can't park in your own backyard, you can park at a local skyport where a controller can monitor entire districts.

But that's no fun! In fact, its not even practical! The traffic jam is between my house in the burbs and the skyport then! What *good* does it do me if it can't sit in the driveway (errrr, skyway?), Jetson's-like?

one method of creating a skyway is satelite based GPS, the lag would be deadly if it had to control your car, your car would control itself and its route would be streamed to it. that system exists now.

the only way to do this is with predefined "skyways" which is what commercial air traffic does now, and its notable that that system is still human controlled! They can't even program that, let alone getting it to scale to for example, 5 million vehicles hovering around southern California.... The cars can't just "direct themselves", because the important thing is the vectors of all the nearby cars, not only their current vectors but their known change in vectors that are to occur in the near future, which means, yes, central control or at least constant update of data for a local system that has to ask the central system "is it okay for me to change to course 125 mark 68?"

... if you crash you can walk up to the highway and signal for help.

How's about if you're on your way from Oxnard to Osaka? :rant:

the range can be extended. the engine though high tech have been built by a very small team. once entire corporations start to tackle the design they will be able to increase safety cargo capacity aesthetics and range.

"Its not a matter of where he grips it!" That's an issue for an interesting physics thread, but you've basically got to deal with power-weight ratios and energy efficiency of given masses for fuels that are available. Not likely you'll be able to do hovering all the way to Osaka: wings on traditional winged aircraft designs are much more efficient....

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[alxian]

Hehe, you haven't seen what happens when a Wal-Mart collides with a tornado then....But that's no fun!

 

as a famous comdedian once said, if you shop at walmart you can prolly relocate to another identical one that isn't in a tornado proned part of the country. of course when he said it it was funnier.

 

In fact, its not even practical! The traffic jam is between my house in the burbs and the skyport then! What *good* does it do me if it can't sit in the driveway (errrr, skyway?), Jetson's-like?

 

jo-every-american prolly agrees,

 

but the quote from the site would read, the skyport would be five minutes away, or 15 at a brisk walk.

 

the only way to do this is with predefined "skyways" which is what commercial air traffic does now, and its notable that that system is still human controlled!

 

a testament to our abilities. however those humans doing the controlling are amoung the most specialised and well paid in the service industry. you can just become a air traffic controller, its as much inate as specialized training.

 

which also means while some people can't drive a car at over 150 race car drivers do it for a living, some people couldn't ever hope to fly skycar manually making it a niche market at first, while some people would finally find that thrill they've been wasting their lives looking for.

 

i mean we have so much potential but some of us never do anything with it. if flying around in the air releases at least part of that potential in people who knows how much we could actually do manually.

 

the sensation would be akin to a fighter jet without the gees. very few people have the priveledge skycar will bring that to more people. even to entire families once domestic versions are created.

 

They can't even program that, let alone getting it to scale to for example, 5 million vehicles hovering around southern California.... The cars can't just "direct themselves", because the important thing is the vectors of all the nearby cars, not only their current vectors but their known change in vectors that are to occur in the near future, which means, yes, central control or at least constant update of data for a local system that has to ask the central system "is it okay for me to change to course 125 mark 68?"How's about if you're on your way from Oxnard to Osaka? :rant: "Its not a matter of where he grips it!" That's an issue for an interesting physics thread, but you've basically got to deal with power-weight ratios and energy efficiency of given masses for fuels that are available. Not likely you'll be able to do hovering all the way to Osaka: wings on traditional winged aircraft designs are much more efficient....

 

Cheers,

Buffy

 

actually... they can and do. the cars talk to each other and not necessarily some remote home base. they will need to report to home base of course but to the millisecond control will be up to the cars themselves to deside. formation control is what the human skycraft controller would be worried about.

 

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/futurecar/article/0,20967,701873,00.html

 

**The Egg That Drives Itself

Pod-cars could charge through cityscapes with no assistance from the humans inside**

 

toyotas is amoung the major automakes intent on designing a smart highway where cars control each other.

 

if you've seen the movie the fifth element you'll notice that all the cars seem to flow in perfect lanes without any kind of frame of reference. this is because in reality the systems being designed to accomplish this task are fully integrated into the car. the car in front tells the car behind it where it is, where its going, how fast its going etc, along with that information all the cars in formation share that formation data, so that even if the road conditions change or, in the air, if there is unexpected turbulance like a shole all the cars will shift in unison to avoid that obstacle. in this example a static highway and its classical problems (avalanches rocks fallen trees) are avioded. this system would allow depending on the bandwidth several vertical layers and lateral lanes of skycars to communicate with each other without a problem.

[Turtle]

___I started a similar thread in the watercooler a while back title personal flying vehicles. There is also an even older thread here somewhere on the topic.

___While I look for the links, the control issue is near at hand according to NASA with their "Highway in the Sky" program.

___By the by, what do all the boxes mean in the title? :rant:

 

http://hypography.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3190&highlight=personal+flying+vehicles

http://hypography.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4&highlight=flying+cars

[Buffy]

By the by, what do all the boxes mean in the title? :rant:

Install your Chinese Character Set, Turtle! Or use Firefox!

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Tormod]

I have a manual for an RC car. The manual is printed in some faraway country.

 

Here is a typical excerpt:

 

For avoid dangerous, the absoluteness can't give not the full and 3 years old child swim or play.

 

Nuff said.

[Tormod]

This part may be related to flying cars (I don't know, maybe some English speaking folks can help). Or maybe flying at the speed of light.

 

Oh, and the manual is called "The explain" (so technically I guess it's not a manual).

 

Step 9. To proteet in ovder to hace the best liglist speel

 

Sorry for derailing this otherwise brilliant thread. :rant:

[CraigD]

What I find most amazing about the Moller Skycar(s) is:

Nearly every aviation or sport vehicle enthusiast knows of their existence;

Nearly everyone who knows of their existence wants one of their own (me included!);

Extensive performance and engineering specifications have been published for most models;

Moller has seriously engaged government aviation regulators in a discussion of the measures that would be necessary to manage an airspace crowded with such vehicles;

… yet …

In their whole 40 year history, not one of these vehicles has actually taken off, flown at an altitude of even a few hundred feet for a distance of even a few miles, and landed.

 

Though Moller overcame power problems by the 1970s, and seemed by the mid 1990s on the verge of overcoming control problems, the aircraft is simply not quite ready to fly. It’s clear from the published video that control is still an issue, hovering and landing in a specific spot still iffy. Though occasional press releases explain the tether attaching the aircraft to the large crane seen in the videos as something forced upon them by their insurance companies, I’d bet it’s there for the obvious – to prevent the aircraft from crashing when a test goes poorly.

 

I really wish the M400 was coming soon to a dealer near me, but I fear the difficulties in making it flightworthy are likely to be due to profound design problems. More money and labor may be required to resolve these problems than has gone into its design to date.

 

Moller is the very epitome of forceful commitment to a vision. I hope he finds in the PRC bottomless pockets and limitless armies of engineers, enough to see his vision made real. But I’m not counting on it.