Racial/cultural identity

[Chacmool]

I live in South Africa, and our population is made up of a very wide variety of people. As a result, racial and cultural issues are always being hotly debated. I am white, my first language is Afrikaans, and I was born in this country. All my recent ancestors were also born here; my great-great-grandfather came to South Africa from Ireland.

 

I would like some input on the following question: am I African or European?

[coldcreation]

I live in South Africa, and our population is made up of a very wide variety of people. As a result, racial and cultural issues are always being hotly debated. I am white, my first language is Afrikaans, and I was born in this country. All my recent ancestors were also born here; my great-great-grandfather came to South Africa from Ireland.

 

I would like some input on the following question: am I African or European?

 

 

Hello Chacmool,

Thanks,

You are both African or European, just like blacks in the States are Afro-Americans.

Enjoy!

A.M. aka Coldcreation

[Chacmool]

Hello Chacmool,

Thanks,

You are both African or European, just like blacks in the States are Afro-Americans.

Enjoy!

A.M. aka Coldcreation

 

That would seem to be the logical answer. However, on virtually every form you complete in South Africa, you have to indicate your race. The options usually are: White, Coloured, Indian and African. Am I not African too? Should I tick two boxes? And anyway, according to the latest research we are all descendants of an ancient Afican forefather(and "foremother", of course!). Do these distinctions really matter?

 

To confuse the matter even more: in our laws that govern black economic empowerment, "black" refers to everyone who is not white, i.e. Coloured and Indian as well.

[UncleAl]

All my recent ancestors were also born here; my great-great-grandfather came to South Africa from Ireland. Am I African or European?

 

What makes you think your ancestors' ancestors were Irish? Three generations in place makes you a local. Are Australians English prisoners who served their time? They should be allowed to go home and their property returned to them. That is obviously a silly statement.

 

Funny... you don't look like an African. "8^>)

[zadojla]

In the United States, where we are asked to voluntarily provide our ethnicity on more government forms, in the interest of "fairness", they foolishly use geographical terms, when they really want to ask your race.

So, "African-American" really means "negroid", "Asian-American" really means "mongoloid", etc. It is considered incorrect for a white South African to mark off "African-American" or for an Isreali to mark off "Asian-American".

To make it more confusing, they are now allowing people to specify mixed ethnicity.

[Chacmool]

What makes you think your ancestors' ancestors were Irish? Three generations in place makes you a local. Are Australians English prisoners who served their time? They should be allowed to go home and their property returned to them. That is obviously a silly statement.

 

Funny... you don't look like an African. "8^>)

 

Exactly. I do consider myself to be a local. I have no claims whatsoever to anything in Ireland. However, I'm not being made to feel very welcome as an African either. Where does that leave me? Where do I belong?

 

What does an African look like? The continent is enormous, and it's home to a vast variety of people. I don't think one can say what a "typical African" looks like, because there simply is no such thing.

[Chacmool]

In the United States, where we are asked to voluntarily provide our ethnicity on more government forms, in the interest of "fairness", they foolishly use geographical terms, when they really want to ask your race.

So, "African-American" really means "negroid", "Asian-American" really means "mongoloid", etc. It is considered incorrect for a white South African to mark off "African-American" or for an Isreali to mark off "Asian-American".

To make it more confusing, they are now allowing people to specify mixed ethnicity.

 

Very interesting. But who determines where the line is drawn between "negroid" and "mongoloid" and "caucasian"? During the apartheid era in South Africa, families were sometimes torn apart when children with the same parents got classified into different racial groups. What about people of mixed descent? Aren't we all really of mixed descent? Is it even really necessary to distinguish between the various (arbitrary) racial categories?

 

What racial category would I, as a white South African, be expected to choose if I can't consider myself to be an African American (if I were to live in the US)?

[zadojla]

Very interesting. But who determines where the line is drawn between "negroid" and "mongoloid" and "caucasian"? During the apartheid era in South Africa, families were sometimes torn apart when children with the same parents got classified into different racial groups. What about people of mixed descent? Aren't we all really of mixed descent? Is it even really necessary to distinguish between the various (arbitrary) racial categories?

 

What racial category would I, as a white South African, be expected to choose if I can't consider myself to be an African American (if I were to live in the US)?

This is very unlike apartheid. Each person decides what they answer, so it is perfectly possible for a person to misdescribe themselves. There is no penalty or audit. My understanding of racial classification under apartheid was that skin color was the prime determining factor, rather that race or ethnicity.

Starting with the 2000 census, people were allowed to specify mixed descent, again all self-identfied. Interestingly, there is not usually a category "European-American", that choice is usually "White". And of course, "Native American" means not only "Indian", but "Eskimo" and "Aleut".

We know a woman who is a white, English-speaking, South Afican, and she gets very huffy if I refer to her as "African-American". And her children were born here, so what are they? Whatever they want.

[Chacmool]

This is very unlike apartheid. Each person decides what they answer, so it is perfectly possible for a person to misdescribe themselves. There is no penalty or audit. My understanding of racial classification under apartheid was that skin color was the prime determining factor, rather that race or ethnicity.

Starting with the 2000 census, people were allowed to specify mixed descent, again all self-identfied. Interestingly, there is not usually a category "European-American", that choice is usually "White". And of course, "Native American" means not only "Indian", but "Eskimo" and "Aleut".

We know a woman who is a white, English-speaking, South Afican, and she gets very huffy if I refer to her as "African-American". And her children were born here, so what are they? Whatever they want.

 

Of course I'm not comparing my situation to apartheid - sorry if I created that impression. I merely wanted to illustrate how dividing people into arbitrary categories can have catastrophic results.

 

Skin colour is indeed still the basis for deciding a person's racial classification. This can be very problematic in a society with such diverse origins as ours. Due to the current policy of affirmative action, one's racial classification can have a far-reaching impact on various factors, such as job opportunities and land claims.

[sanctus]

Chacmol when you go to ireland do you feel like going home or into holidays? Your answer will tell you where you belong.

Your question if it is necessary to definy arbitrary racial differences is a personal opinion. I don't think it, there is no neccessity to create differences between humans and if there is the need to (as some humans have the need to separe themselves from others to feel "secure") it should be made on cultural diferences and not skin color as that nowadays doesn't make any sense.

 

And last but not least welcome to the forum.

[Chacmool]

Chacmol when you go to ireland do you feel like going home or into holidays? Your answer will tell you where you belong.

Your question if it is necessary to definy arbitrary racial differences is a personal opinion. I don't think it, there is no neccessity to create differences between humans and if there is the need to (as some humans have the need to separe themselves from others to feel "secure") it should be made on cultural diferences and not skin color as that nowadays doesn't make any sense.

 

And last but not least welcome to the forum.

 

Thanks! It's a great place to be.

[Chacmool]

Chacmol when you go to ireland do you feel like going home or into holidays? Your answer will tell you where you belong.

Your question if it is necessary to definy arbitrary racial differences is a personal opinion. I don't think it, there is no neccessity to create differences between humans and if there is the need to (as some humans have the need to separe themselves from others to feel "secure") it should be made on cultural diferences and not skin color as that nowadays doesn't make any sense.

 

And last but not least welcome to the forum.

 

I don't know - I've never been to Ireland, although I have a great affinity for the country and its people. However, I've been to other parts of Europe, and I felt very much at home there. But South Africa is still my home. I lived in Europe for a while, and most people there seemed to regard me as an African. I have also lived in another African country, and the very strong opinion of the people there was that I'm a European. This is very confusing! I wish skin colour had nothing to do with any classifications, and that we could all be seen as equal human beings, regardless of race, ethnicity, culture, religion, politics, etc.

[Boerseun]

We are all racists at heart. We should either learn to live with it, or get over it.

It's the principle of "Me against my brother, me and my brother against the neighbour, me, my brother and the neighbour against the guy from the other side of town..." ad infinitum.

We keep to our own, and feel threatened by anything or anybody that's not obviously the same as us. I might feel indifferent to a Scotsman until I hear him speak - that belies a tradition, culture and set of beliefs that doesn't fit into my frame of reference.

But then, the Scotsman won't have a lot of time for me either, for the same reasons - until we are both confronted by a Hindu Indian, for instance - then we'll probably get over our cultural differences and unite against the poor Indian, 'cause, hey, at least me and the Scotsman look alike.

Racism is not a good or a bad thing, in my opinion, I just reckon we spend waaaaay too much time and energy trying to change it. It's genetic, I think, and probably has a lot of survival value. Any culture will insist that it's superior, regardless of the merit of the other culture's argument.

I'm of the opinion that we're all born racists, and we should accept it for that. The only way that the World will unite and bring all cultures together, is when we're faced with a universal problem, like global warming, or even an alien invasion :)

[Chacmool]

OK Boerseun, since we're from the same part of the world: Are you an African or a European, and why?

[Boerseun]

OK Boerseun, since we're from the same part of the world: Are you an African or a European, and why?

 

Me? Caucasian. In my opinion, there's no such thing as an African or European. Unless you refer to your continent of residence, though - in which case I'm an African.

[Chacmool]

Me? Caucasian. In my opinion, there's no such thing as an African or European. Unless you refer to your continent of residence, though - in which case I'm an African.

 

OK, but doesn't it feel wrong that you're not supposed to select the "African" option when filling in a form? So, officially I can't be an African, but I don't have any legitimate claim to anything in Europe either. Maybe I should just move to Australia - then I'll have no worries, mate!

[Boerseun]

OK, but doesn't it feel wrong that you're not supposed to select the "African" option when filling in a form?

Not really, no. The reason they're doing it, is to get a statistical idea of what's going on in the country. Which is a good idea in itself. But, it opens the door for all kinds of discriminatory practices. A good idea does not necessarily imply that the person who had the idea didn't have his cranium up his rectum at the time. You do have the constitutional right to leave the options blank, though.

So, officially I can't be an African, but I don't have any legitimate claim to anything in Europe either.

Which isn't such a bad thing, seeing as the weather in Europe sucks.

Maybe I should just move to Australia - then I'll have no worries, mate!

Australia's a great country - just a pity about all the Australians there!