¿iWHAT IS GOD!?

[Queso]

i just got in a very very annoying debate with a friend who is catholic (ugh, never EVER again)

i learned tonight that you guys don't believe god is in human form. that's what i always assumed, because jesus was a human. (if he even existed)

so i guess now you theists believe that god just implanted the son of him in mary (obviously someone was jacking off into wherever she was taking a bath)

 

"...the son of HIM" him...so what is god?

it's a him, since he has a son.

or is god not a him?

 

WHAT DO YOU THEISTS BELIEVE GOD IS!?

 

my friend tried to explain it to me, but it was about the same as someone trying to tell me about that purple unicorn in my garage.

 

ugh i am so flustered, i get too worked up over this nonsense of god. :shrug:

[Queso]

and how come i always hear "and the good lord said..."

so that means god speaks?

so that means god has vocal chords?

so that means god speaks the language of the humans??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!

 

rubbish.

[zadojla]

WHAT DO YOU THEISTS BELIEVE GOD IS!?

I'm not a theist, but I can tell you from my reading in history, that there are many answers to that question, and the "wrong" one could have been worth your life in some places and times.

Consider the difference between believing in the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost), as opposed to Monophysites, who believe all three are one. Most Monophysites met their maker in the Dark Ages, but the theology of the Armenian Orthodox Church is Monophysite.

Then there are differences in belief about the relationship between God and Satan. Most Christian sects now believe that Satan is created by God and is subordinate to him, but there were Manichaeans, and later Cathari (who were the victims of the Albigensian Crusade), who believed they were equal. (Perhaps due to Zoroastrian influence. Did you know the "three wise men" were Zoroastrian?)

People died because they thought Jesus was God in the form of a man, instead of an actual man. The list of variations of belief is virtually endless.

What sort of answer are you hoping for?

[Queso]

ugh, i don't know. i guess i just think it is all so absurd, i can't believe it's so accepted.

[zadojla]

Last Sunday, there was a guest sermon at church. The visiting pastor was very smart and entertaining, but he said one thing that infuriated me. He spoke about how, in a Christian country, church and state should not be separated. I explained to my family on the way home that I considered this a direct threat against my life and livelihood, since in so many places and times, a theistic government would have killed me. They thought I was being melodramatic, but I would fight to prevent that.

[zadojla]

BTW, you may wonder how a nasty old non-theist like me knows these things. I started reading up in college, based on the principal "know thy enemy".

Before all you believing Hypographers take offense, I do not think you personally are out to get me. I do believe that theistic organizations, such as the Roman Catholic Church, would if they could.

[Buffy]

Orb, this deserves a poll. You thought it up, so you do it, but let me give you some categories with some commentary. I'm obviously going to leave off the options of "no god" "don't know, don't care", and "maybe, but not provable" and other atheist/agnostic groups because they're not in the target for your question. So here are some categories:

• The woman who pushed the button: I sometimes claim to be in this group, but you can never be sure that I really believe what I say I believe! :shrug: This is the scenario where God kinda set up all the parameters of the universe and hit the "Start" button (don't flame me alexander! I *don't* believe that billg is God! Antichrist maybe...). There is no intervention. Free will exists, although its all "deterministic" because its based on macro-quantum effects. Or not, we don't know, but the basic point is that God's just watching: maybe even *can't* do anything about what she started.
  
• Benevolent overseer who occasionally stirs the pot: This I don't believe, but if you don't believe in a traditional God but do believe in miracles, this is the one for you. Set things in motion, Evolution works, etc. But every once in a while Deus Ex Machina happens. Explains miracles, ESP, Ghosts, etc. but puts it in a "God-like" context. This encompasses a lot of the "naturalist" religions or Pantheists of various types including some well known ones like Hindu, Shinto, to less accepted ones such as Wiccans.
  
• God-being-societies (aka "Polytheism"): these are no longer popular, but all Greek, Norse, North American, and other mythologies are all based on this idea. There are a bunch of Gods who have their own society and have control of various elements of the creation and they battle and conspire just like humans do, but they have super powers. Star Trek fans believe in the Q-continuum, and there are other modern sect-like versions of this (Raelians may fit here, too). Humans are kind of toys here too. If you're cute enough, you get to be a "godess" and get god-sex, but this is reserved for girls (do you see a pattern here?).
  
• Monotheistic/full-control/free-will: Judaism and Islam are kinda like this. God is in control, there's no other god, but people are free to do bad things and God is free to punish them (as Yahweh said, "I am a wrathful God" (as if there was more than one kind! THAT oughta tell ya some thing...)). Miracles occur, but its up to YOU to decide what to do, although there's no "Hell" if you do bad. You get bad Karma if you're bad in some of these religions, and God might even strike you dead. Sometimes there are prohets (Moses, Mohamed, Jesus (he's just another prophet in Islam)), but they are just messengers of God, not God-like.
  
• Monotheistic/Battle with Satan/free-will: Most Christian religions fall in this area where humans are influenced by evil, and if you are, sorry Charlie, you don't get into Heaven and the Devil gets your soul. In some cases there's a "Trinity" ("Its three, three, three Gods in one!"), but its still basically monotheistic, because God is God, Christ is the the Son 'O God, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit is what drives you to the other two. Not all Christian religions belive in this, and its arguable that its not a separate group, but it is distinct as a set of sects (which Zad describes well above).
  
• Monothesistic/Battle with Satan/Controlled by Good/Evil: Some sects get into this "I was just posessed by God/Satan" but "I'm only a pawn in their game" (sorry Bobby!). These are mostly small sects of Christianity, but they basically hold that if something bad happens, its not really your fault, you were standing on the wrong street corner. They attract people who've had bad luck but don't think they deserve it.
  
• Monothesistic/Battle with Satan/Apocalyptic: These are the folks that believe that something *really* bad is going to happen when the Mother of All Battles happens between God and Satan. God is going to take good care of the folks that have "committed" to him, and, well, the rest are in *real* trouble. This shows up in sects of both Christianity and Islam, but not too many other places. I've always considered these sects to be the most advanced politically, on the thesis that religions are all essentially the precursor to formal societal/political structures.
  

That's a start. Have at it.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Queso]

damn buffy, that is quite a good post. i tried to give you rep, but i guess i recently did that. i never know what i do with this memory of mine...:shrug:

i have learned what i wanted to learn though...that god's image is just a good of guess as mine, even though i don't believe in god.

it's just another thing to make me nausious thinking about, another thing for me to lie awake at night (as i have been doing the past hour) and fluster myself into an exhausted sleep. you should definitely make a poll, i'm not worthy!

buffy the vampire slayer is one hella kick *** chick.

[paultrr]

ugh, i don't know. i guess i just think it is all so absurd, i can't believe it's so accepted.

 

The normal idea is that Christ was perfect God and perfect man united into one being. The idea goes on to state that God is spirit, that Christ was both eternally the Son of God, prior to the incarnation, and that God the Son became flesh at the incarnation. As God he knew everything his Father did. As man his knowledge was limited. As God he was not subject to death. But as man he was limited as we are.

 

As for the Virgin birth, it is believed from the Bible account that it was the Spirit of God who moved upon Mary and conceived Christ in her womb. It was a devine act which was not done like we human's do things, at least from the information given.

 

One passage in Hebrews has a little import here: Christ was the expressed image of God's person. Personality(as it relates to the Trinity) has a somewhat clouded history. Tertillian coined the term in his treaties on God. However, he used the latin word which in his time generally refered to a mask an actor wore on stage. Rather like an image or way one see's the character being portrayed by the actor behind the mask, so to speak. Others modified this view over time to the point it means a little more than originally devloped. The idea was based upon not only Christ speaking to His father, His mentioning the coming Spirit as another comforter, and even back to John where one has the Word of God not only with or along side God, but being God.

 

However, if you ask individual Christian's about this you tend to get many different answers. There are Christians groups out there that hold strong to passages where Christ spoke of the Father in him going as far as to say there is only one individual who is God and who expresses himself in three ways. There are some who see it as three distinct personalities forming one being. There are groups who believe there is no eternal Son of God and that Son of God simply refers to after the incarnation. Christ was only eternal in the sence that God became incarnate. In this case you can get varients on the above. The Catholic's see the trinity as a mystery. They hold to one God. But see him in three distinct persons.

 

In some ways this is an evolved doctrine. The scriptures say it both ways at points. Some point to God, as Father being in Christ. Some point to it being the Son, who was God, in Christ. Personally, the whole debate goes on and on. In general, one can make of Hebrews what one wants. But its interesting that the Greek word for person there denotes an individual. Its like saying that Christ was the outwardly expressed image of the individual who is God. But then again that's the whole idea behind the Word in the first chapter of John also. The Word, Logos, in the Greek is an outward expression of an inward thought, etc.

[paultrr]

BTW, you may wonder how a nasty old non-theist like me knows these things. I started reading up in college, based on the principal "know thy enemy".

Before all you believing Hypographers take offense, I do not think you personally are out to get me. I do believe that theistic organizations, such as the Roman Catholic Church, would if they could.

 

I'd rather agree with that and it applies to organizational belief systems in general. My problems is not with individuals who believe. You might say they have the God given right to believe what they want. I base that upon our declaration of Independence and the Constitution. But organized religions or organized groups in general can and do have a behind the public danger in them, especially when they have political power. Power corrupts even the best. Absolute power corrupts absolute. Its also true if certain Christian groups had it their way anything that tends towards an athiest viewpoint would be done away with. Christian group's can at times speak of the rights we have, especially on free speach, and at other times, want limits imposed on that when it comes to non-believer's in general.

[C1ay]

I think I answered that here....

[infamous]

Hey there Buffy; after reading your post number 7, I'm inclined to believe that God must have been a women. For what it's worth, I must commend you for always posting intelligent and thought provoking material. Intelligent women have always turned me on, allbeit a little late in the game for it to make any difference now, considering that I'm almost 63 years old. In any case, your an asset to this forum, and even though I'm 63, I still enjoy gazing upon your avatar, have a good one Buffy.

[UncleAl]

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/god.htm

http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/religion.htm

[Biochemist]

Orb, this deserves a poll....some categories:

 

 

• The woman who pushed the button:
  
• Benevolent overseer who occasionally stirs the pot:
  
• God-being-societies (aka "Polytheism"):
  
• Monotheistic/full-control/free-will:
  
• Monotheistic/Battle with Satan/free-will:
  
• Monothesistic/Battle with Satan/Controlled by Good/Evil:
  
• Monothesistic/Battle with Satan/Apocalyptic:
  

Really interesting breakdown of theists. I am not quite sure why you broke the last four apart like you did, but this tells me something about how you think. If I understand your definitions, Christians fall in all of the last four buckets, and some Chritians could fall into more than one (or couldn't decide).

 

 

Orb- It sounded like the question you were asking was specifically about Christianity, not just theism. And even more specifically, you were looking for a Catholic view (althouh I don't think most Catholics understand the Catholc view- your friend may not)

 

 

I am not Catholc, but I could try and take that one for you if you like. You still interested?

[Buffy]

Really interesting breakdown of theists. I am not quite sure why you broke the last four apart like you did, but this tells me something about how you think. If I understand your definitions, Christians fall in all of the last four buckets, and some Chritians could fall into more than one (or couldn't decide).

You have to break down the last four, and arguably, I could have kept going! Because monotheism is popular and spans many religions, if you lump them all in one group, you'll end up grouping together sects that have widely divergent views of God, and that was the point that Orb was trying to look at and consider I was trying to address some of the issues he brought up in choosing what I wrote. If the "Christian" views of god were all the same, we wouldn't have all these sects that have been at eachother's throats for thousands of years! Of course "Chritianity" falls into multiple groups! My list was biased and arbitrary, but heck, this whole subject is biased and arbitrary: it ain't science is it? :shrug: Like I said I could keep going creating new buckets, but it was late... Feel free to contribute!

 

Theistically,

Buffy Summers, D.D.

[Smokinjoe9]

In short, IMHO, God is one side of the equation, if there is bad there has to be good, if there is right there has to be wrong...This is just an idea I have heard from some of the religious community...I like the idea....

 

In an ever reaching way the scale has to be continuously balanced. IE; Good VS Evil.....

[Fishteacher73]

We have recently discussed the idea that both good and evil are mental constucts that are highly subjective. IE if God is good, he is a mental construct and highly subjective.