One last tirade (or bbc and the lectern of truth)

[Buffy]

At least you have changed the argument to an actual problem source (versus" blame the teachers"). The unions are a problem.

They certainly aren't blameless, but I'd point out that private school teachers get paid less on average because there's no possibility of a union to represent them. Are you arguing that all unions are bad?

The second (related) problem is the size of the public school bureaucracy.

No question the bureacracy sucks, but they aren't unionized, yet no matter who controls the school board, the bad folks don't disappear, in fact it seems as if each regime change at the top brings in new incompetents that just happen to be friends of the folks on the school board. I think we agree on this point! In my kid's school district (one of the best in the state), they have basically saved money by getting rid of the bureaucracy almost completely (they fit in a tiny bungalow in back of the high school), and the principals have been given a lot of power to do things at the school level. Very novel and unfortunately very rare...

In Oregon, the public schools cost as muich as the very good private schools, and are a miserable comparison in quality in most cases (there are one or two counterexamples). The problem is NOT money.

Here we can begin to disagree: the comparison of public to private is fairly fallacious: private schools are selective, they get rid of the problems the public schools cannot. The percentage of the population that attends school has shot up tremendously, including in many districts huge numbers of non-English speakers (my daughter's class has 3 students who are non-functional in anything but Korean or Russian). In addition, special needs kids mostly get sent to public schools, with the exception of private schools that specialize in them and they cost an arm and a leg.

Let see. When Clinton was successful, it was to his credit. When Clinton was unsuccessful, it was not his fault. When Bush is successful, it was not to his crediut. Nope, no bias there.

Bias versus bias I guess, but what good is being "successful" in passing legislation if you're not going to do anything about it?

If we have any single stable democracy in the mesopotamian crescent in the next 20 years, most will credit the Buch presidency.

"History is written by the victors" of course, but there can be endless unresovled what-if arguments on unending in the future. Who's to say that a more finessed and diplomatic approach, rather than a rushed, "screw all those cheese-eating surrender monkeys" approach would not have had a better result? How about the completely indefensible lack of preparation for the "post"-war action made on the assumption that we'd be met in the streets with grateful Iraqis? As Colin Powell said "you break it, you've bought it." And he was right. I'd vote for him for president! This was extremely poorly thought out and no amount of dissembling or screaming that the Democrats would have screwed it up worse is going to make it any better. Like you often point out, those of us in the center think they're *all* a bunch of idiots, but some are more idiotic than others. Boy, this one belongs in another thread...

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Fishteacher73]

Absolutly the issue is parental envolvement. I have worked in a few schools. One had a passing rate of exemplary (The best rating with I think the % is 94% of all students passing the TAKS and no demographic divisions w/ less than 85%). Another was glad when it got acceptable (Over 50% passing with not demographic below 50%). The first school had an active PTA and Bosster Club. The second school just started a PTA this year with very low invlovement. This is not a surprise.

 

I have no problem with requiring the basics, but unfortunately that has become the meat of all classes. In art they must design lesson plans with TAKS relivence. These tests are pathetic. They are on about an 8th grade level for graduation. As opposed to this requirement being a springboard on which to propel students into higher thinking and anylization skills, you have multiple choice artithmatic. The reading comprehension is abysmal. You may have students that can look at the words and read them outloud but can draw nothing from it other than tthe ability to select "the best answer" someone else has provided.

[Biochemist]

...I'd point out that private school teachers get paid less on average because there's no possibility of a union to represent them. ....

Are you in a union???? Is that how your value is established????

Are you arguing that all unions are bad?

No, but the NEA is an institution of minimal (potentially negative) value. It is not even clear they represent thier members.

No question the bureacracy sucks....it seems as if each regime change at the top brings in new incompetents that just happen to be friends of the folks on the school board.

That is why it ought to be privatized. This model would lose in the market. It is only retained because it is subsidized.

...the comparison of public to private is fairly fallacious: private schools are selective, they get rid of the problems the public schools cannot.

If I were going to start a private school, the very first niche I would pursue is the niche for special needs kids.

The percentage of the population that attends school has shot up tremendously, including in many districts huge numbers of non-English speakers (my daughter's class has 3 students who are non-functional in anything but Korean or Russian).

All core elementary teaching in the US should be in English. The ESL kids should be taught English ASAP so that they have access to all of the higher eductation resources that are almost exclusively in English.

Bias versus bias I guess, but what good is being "successful" in passing legislation if you're not going to do anything about it?

NCLB was a good first step. If we are diligent, it will improve.

How about the completely indefensible lack of preparation for the "post"-war action made on the assumption that we'd be met in the streets with grateful Iraqis?

You are just selecting the elements that did not go as planned, and ignoring the ones that did. Have at it. Personally, I am glad that we have not had another 9/11-like attack. In December of 2001, almost everyone presumed there would be a string of additional US based terror attacks. It is easy to make the suggestion that they have been distracted. I think it is true.

[Biochemist]

...I have no problem with requiring the basics, but unfortunately that has become the meat of all classes. In art they must design lesson plans with TAKS relivence. These tests are pathetic. They are on about an 8th grade level for graduation. As opposed to this requirement being a springboard on which to propel students into higher thinking and anylization skills, you have multiple choice artithmatic. ...

I am a little confused, FsT- Are you saying that we should teach these kids critical thinking intead of basics?

[Fishteacher73]

Quote:

No question the bureacracy sucks....it seems as if each regime change at the top brings in new incompetents that just happen to be friends of the folks on the school board.

 

That is why it ought to be privatized. This model would lose in the market. It is only retained because it is subsidized.

 

The privitization of "public" schools has been tried and has had poor success at best. The largest was if I recall the Edison priject started by Chris Whittle. It has selected success but the project as a whole fell way short of anything in the right direction.

[Fishteacher73]

I am a little confused, FsT- Are you saying that we should teach these kids critical thinking intead of basics?

 

What I am saying is that these test imply the knowledge of the basics, but in reality the students that pass the literacy test can not exhibit the necessary skills of being literate outside any realm but the narrow band of the test. We generate students that cannot read something and form thir own oppinion on it.

 

As for math we stress arithmatic but not aplication. Science and history are in the same boat. This system has the air of teaching but the results are usless blobs that know only to pass a test and not to function in reality.

[Buffy]

Are you in a union???? Is that how your value is established????

Nope, I've always been a member of the bourgosie oppressor class! I still think that without the labor movement we'd never have developed a middle class which in the post-WWII era was *mostly* unionized! Slave labor is by far the most profitable approach though, and with the decline in unions, we're headed that direction, so all ya gotta do is wait....

No, but the NEA is an institution of minimal (potentially negative) value.

Whoo! I'll let Fish respond to that one! I think its fair to say that most union members can find fault with their leadership and that it succumbs to many of the faults that our political system, but "its the worst system except for all the others"....

That is why it ought to be privatized....

Surprise! I agree with this and I actually know a ton of teachers who do too, but you know what? It ends up requiring some mechanism for dealing with the "underclass" because they are likely to be ghettoized: sure good parents in poor neighborhoods will use their vouchers to get their kids into better schools, but when you talk about poor neighborhoods, there is a huge core of chronically disfunctional families, and these kids are just going to get warehoused because the private schools will refuse to take them.

If I were going to start a private school, the very first niche I would pursue is the niche for special needs kids.

Yes, but then we know you're a saint (no smilie there!). Not too many will pursue this because actually the risks are higher and the margins will be lower (if you think that a major shift like this will happen without significant NCLB-oversight extending to the private sector, you're delusional....)

NCLB was a good first step. If we are diligent, it will improve.

Guess we'll just have to wait for the Democrats to come in and fund it before we'll ever know huh? :friday:

You are just selecting the elements that did not go as planned, and ignoring the ones that did.

Not really. Are you arguing that the "love in the streets" scenario that Cheney, Rumsfeld and their underlings were on the record as insisting was the only *possible* outcome was intelligent and reasonable? (Viewers: this isn't entirely off topic, as its relevant evidence of a consistent "rosy scenario" point of view that posits that all you have to do is pass things like NCLB and not fund it and it will all work out just great....if it weren't for those pesky liberals who keep publishing "negativist" propaganda...)

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Buffy]

The privitization of "public" schools has been tried and has had poor success at best. The largest was if I recall the Edison priject started by Chris Whittle. It has selected success but the project as a whole fell way short of anything in the right direction.

Fish is right about this: has to do with the fact that privatization efforts are usually for-profit, and the demands of the investors squeeze out the demands of the customers (children) and labor (teachers). If you *really* want to do this right, we should send all our kids to boarding school in Bangalore....

 

Interesting datapoint: ultra-liberal Jerry Brown has done a pretty good job with the publicly funded military academies in Oakland, but they're attacked from all sides and will probably go away.... Privatization advocates are just as negative about this program as the liberals...

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Biochemist]

The privitization of "public" schools has been tried and has had poor success at best. The largest was if I recall the Edison priject started by Chris Whittle. It has selected success but the project as a whole fell way short of anything in the right direction.

Isn't this a little like saying in 1910 that private auto manufacturing has been tried, and had poor success? There are hundreds of inexpensive private schools that turn out qualified students. That Edison was only partially successful in remediating some of the worst school environments in the country in notable, but mostly underlines the gravity of the problems in those locales.

 

There is probably not any economy of scale in teaching. Little Catholic parish schools are great places to educate kids . Iin Oregon they cost less than half of the cost of the public system.

 

Put together a budget (capital and operating) for you and 12 of your friends to start a private elementary school. Then imagine which 12 friends you would hire in. Then imagine the tuition for the school. Do you honestly think that you would need $10,000 per student to make it work???????? At that tuition rate, you could put fully one half of the school on full scholarship.

[C1ay]

You have probably seen this sample 8th grade graduation test (this one from Kansas in 1895)

Yes, but did you see what Snopes has to say about it?

[Biochemist]

Fish is right about this: has to do with the fact that privatization efforts are usually for-profit, and the demands of the investors squeeze out the demands of the customers (children) and labor (teachers). ...

These are all completely irrelevant and disingenuous arguments. Suppose we choose to list the worst performing schools in ths country. The absolute worst 20 schools. What fraction of those do you think would be public schools? I suspect there would not be a single private school in the bottom 20. Wouldn't that mean that we should eliminate public schools as a possibility by your logic??? Be serious.

 

Buff- Most private schools (the vast majority) are non profit. Further, being for-profit does not make them bad, any more than be non-profit makes them good.

 

Please, let's have a real discussion about this topic, not these dodge-the-facts contests.

[Biochemist]

Yes, but did you see what Snopes has to say about it?

The reviewer seems to miss the point. This was not a test that was identifed in advance as a specific target exam. It was a general test that presumably selected some trivial number of elements from a non-standardized academic regimen. These kids actually knew something in the 8th grade. Sure knowledge has increased since then. But something over half of US high school students can't identify the century in which the Civil War occurred. Let's take the problem seriously. As I recall, over half also thought that Alaska was off the coast of California. This is not a joke. These kids can't figure out a map inset. Basics matter.

[Biochemist]

Nope, I've always been a member of the bourgosie oppressor class! I still think that without the labor movement we'd never have developed a middle class which in the post-WWII era was *mostly* unionized!

Any data for this conjecture? It is easier to suggest that the middle class was inevitable based on demographics and tax policy.

Slave labor is by far the most profitable approach though, and with the decline in unions, we're headed that direction,

Data?

It ends up requiring some mechanism for dealing with the "underclass" because they are likely to be ghettoized:

This is an easy one.

sure good parents in poor neighborhoods will use their vouchers to get their kids into better schools, but when you talk about poor neighborhoods, there is a huge core of chronically disfunctional families, and these kids are just going to get warehoused because the private schools will refuse to take them.

If this is the case (I think it is), it is ludicrous to load the solution to this problem onto the education budget.

Yes, but then we know you're a saint (no smilie there!). Not too many will pursue this because actually the risks are higher and the margins will be lower (if you think that a major shift like this will happen without significant NCLB-oversight extending to the private sector, you're delusional....)

The reason that no one will do this now is that the government essentially precludes it. This has nothing little to do with NCLB. This has to do with schools being the public solution to all social issues, at the expense of the top two-thirds of students.

Are you arguing that the "love in the streets" scenario that Cheney, Rumsfeld and their underlings were on the record as insisting was the only *possible* outcome was intelligent and reasonable?

Buff-I don't see any reason to respond to the recursive standard-liberal-line rants. Key point: any response that invoke the Cheney-Rumsfield bogeyman element is not worth your typography. (Or Haliburton, or Delay, or Bush, or......... We are discussing policy not people)

[Buffy]

Fish is right about this: has to do with the fact that privatization efforts are usually for-profit, and the demands of the investors squeeze out the demands of the customers (children) and labor (teachers). ...]

These are all completely irrelevant and disingenuous arguments.

No, this is *precisely* what failed with the Edison schools: They took the money and ran!

I suspect there would not be a single private school in the bottom 20. Wouldn't that mean that we should eliminate public schools as a possibility by your logic??? Be serious....Most private schools...are non profit.

You misread me: "privatization" (Edison) is not at all the same as voucher driven private schools. The former are all for-profit to date, and the latter are all non-profit (for tax reasons!). Moreover you're entirely ignoring my argument that public schools degenerate into nothing but warehousing of disadvantaged students which is bad for society. What do we do about these people? These include both the motivated and the incorrigibles with little or no functional parental supervision.

Further, being for-profit does not make them bad, any more than be non-profit makes them good.

Unfortunately you took my statement as a joke, when it is indeed very earnest. There's a very strong argument that the for-profit nature of the privatized public schools is precisely why they fail, and for many of the same reasons we discussed above: there's still no incentive to not overbuild on bureacracy, while short changing the teaching. Since the *only* criteria for judging their "success" is the same standardized tests that others in this thread are flailing, these companies go way overboard on the drill and kill that is eliminating critical thinking. Its the same problem with a green dollar bill ribbon on it. Moreover virtually all of the data arguing that these schools are successful suffer from selection bias: They all tend to be "magnet" schools and do not have to take the incorrigibles.

Please, let's have a real discussion about this topic, not these dodge-the-facts contests.

You too! ;)

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[rockytriton]

You have probably seen this sample 8th grade graduation test (this one from Kansas in 1895)

 

Yes, I've also see it, and found out that it was a hoax.

 

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/1895exam.htm

[Buffy]

Any data for this conjecture? It is easier to suggest that the middle class was inevitable based on demographics and tax policy.

I looked up the historical data on union membership, and its interesting. I overstated slightly, in that from 1948 to about 1975, union membership held steady at about 30% and then started to crash as we saw the first effects of outsourcing (steel in the mid-70s, then the rest of manufacturing in piecemeal fashion). Its seems however like you're arguing that Unions (especially in the first half of the century) had no, or had a negative impact on the livelyhoods of the working class who had no protections whatsoever against the absolute control that industry had in dictating wages and benefits. I know there are some who argue that this is the case, but it seems to be totally blind to how bad working conditions were for a huge segment of what would indeed become the middle class in America in the second half of the century....

...it is ludicrous to load the solution to this problem onto the education budget....This has nothing little to do with NCLB. This has to do with schools being the public solution to all social issues, at the expense of the top two-thirds of students.

So the education of the underclass should be handled by the welfare system? Methinks you're obscuring the issue: yes the chronic underlclass is a societal issue with many areas that need to be worked upon, but to say that we handle the *education* of this underclass as a welfare program or conversely to argue that it is being entirely borne by the education is odd, to be charitable.

Key point: any response that invoke the C***y-R*****ld bogeyman element is not worth your typography. (... We are discussing policy not people)

I will not mention names then, but you've not responded to the policy issue at all, which is fair enough if its off topic (which it is!), but the issue I raise with the policy in both these areas suffers from the same lack of consideration of the consequences that justifies questioning the validity of the policies.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Biochemist]

I looked up the historical data on union membership, and its interesting....Its seems however like you're arguing that Unions (especially in the first half of the century) had no, or had a negative impact on the livelyhoods of the working class who had no protections whatsoever against the absolute control that industry had in dictating wages and benefits. ....

Unions are cartels. It is illegal if business does it, but somehow laudable if unions do it. Nothing that unions accomplished could not have been better accomplished by labor law. And now they are a millstone around laborer's necks. If unions did not get their dues automatically deducted from member's pay, they would fold because few would pay the dues. The "checkoff" is always the VERY first thing that unions demand in negotiation. What a surprise.

So the education of the underclass should be handled by the welfare system?

Interesting leap. If underperformers need extra help, we get it for them. We don't constrain the 3/4 of the population that is normative by the problematic cases. The objective would be to mitigate the risks/penbalties in the problematic cases and reinject them back into the normative group. This is hardly the welfare system. This is just focusing on the problem with appropriate resources, rather than making general public schools handle all societal problems.

I will not mention names then, but you've not responded to the policy issue at all

Actually, I think I did, but only briefly. This was/is a war. No battle plan survives contact with the enemy. Overall, it went well, and better than most expected. Even the elections went better than most expected. We can complain that the populace did not greet us with flowers in the streets, but the existing democratically elected government is still keeping us there. This is a remarkable feat in modern history.