One last tirade (or bbc and the lectern of truth)

[motherengine]

maybe language and information are too damn accessible not to be abused. maybe i take things too damn seriously sometimes. and then maybe when a series of facts are collected in sevice to speculation/theory it is just economical in a linguistic sense to address said speculation/theory as though it were fact. either way i wish i could turn on a television program on the discovery channel or pbs concerning anthropology or biology and not be treated to a bastardizating of reason for the sake of narrative convenience. 'you see', some cheery faced celebrity proclaims, 'whales are the ancestors of cows', or 'its remarkable when you realize that birds are actually the descendants of dinosaurs'. i am happy to concede the possibility of a factual validity to such theories but why not call something what it is. to jump from spectulation (however fact based and reasonable speculation is still speculation) to fact as a matter of convenience is doing a serious disservice to education. impressionable minds exposed to such material (i.e. children, the most consistently underestimated and disrespected faction of televisions audience) are not likely to question the validity of such statements and so what is learned is not fact or truth but a distortion thereof. call me crazy but i would much rather hear 'the predominant theory is...', or even 'most scientist believe that...' than THIS IS THE FACT JACK.

[Fishteacher73]

Very few scientific ideas are absolute facts. Most all upper-end science is all theory (although much of it is heavily supported by evidence, but not enought to claim it to fact). A good read on such ideas is Bill Bryson's A Short History of Nearly Everything.

[Buffy]

Whoa! "'whales are the ancestors of cows'"??? :friday: That one's a doozy! More likely cows are the ancestors of whales, but they're really cousins. Over simplification is bad but being just plain wrong can be nasty... Nonetheless, if it gets kids to dig deeper, maybe its worth a little bit of "oversimplification".... Was that really on the Beeb? Discovery I can believe...

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Turtle]

___I'm with you on this one MotheEngine; your cringe is my cringe. And of course I find the regular new shows do even cringier reporting.

___It is too general to say all the science shows exhibit these bon mots, but I agree the writing needs the clarification phrases you note. It wouldn't hurt to include little refreshers on just what the scientific method is either. :friday:

[Biochemist]

Whoa! "'whales are the ancestors of cows'"??? :friday: That one's a doozy! ...

Gee, I dunno. Cows float. Doesn't that prove it?

[Biochemist]

... Nonetheless, if it gets kids to dig deeper, maybe its worth a little bit of "oversimplification"....

I agree with ME. The more likely outcome is that kids don't investigate at all. After all, it is a "fact".

[Buffy]

I agree with ME. The more likely outcome is that kids don't investigate at all. After all, it is a "fact".

Jeez, makes me want to start printing those old "Question Authority" bumper stickers we all used to have on our cars and start handing em out at high schools....

 

"Gimme an 'F'!...",

Buffy

[Biochemist]

Jeez, makes me want to start printing those old "Question Authority" bumper stickers we all used to have on our cars and start handing em out at high schools....

Maybe. Although I am reminded more of something Fst said in some other thread (I forgot which one). He was concerned that kids no longer learn critical thinking, and I think that is true. It goes beyond questioning authority. Maybe the bumper sticker should just say "ask questions".

[Buffy]

[Fish] was concerned that kids no longer learn critical thinking, and I think that is true.

Heh, heh: I'm sure Tom DeLay and Karl Rove would like to outlaw critical thinking: it gets in the way of "right thinking" and voting properly...

 

I happen to agree with this, and though I make the joke, I think that especially on the extreme conservative wing (both here and in the Arab world by the way), to stop all thinking other than that commanded by the representatives of God who are in charge. This basic push has all sorts of insideous representations, and in the schools I can tell that living even in a very liberal town, the push on the 3 R's in the pursuit of high test scores has pushed any "critical thinking" in all but the richest school districts which have the luxury of still doing it (and have a push by the liberal parents who know that that stuff is the only way to get into a top university....).

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[Biochemist]

...I happen to agree with this, and though I make the joke, I think that especially on the extreme conservative wing (both here and in the Arab world by the way), to stop all thinking other than that commanded by the representatives of God who are in charge. ...

Come on, Buff. Be serious. If you think that Bush, Rove or the "conservatives" have anything to do with the existing debalce in American educaiton, you need a vision adjustment. One could argue that NCLB did not assist in incentives toward critical thinking, but that is becasue NCLB was fundamentally oreinted toward getting elementary school kids reading at all.

 

It would be nice if you could at least occasionally drop the scathing anti-Bush diatribe. It sucks all of the credibility out of your arguments. Clinton would have given his left testicle to pass a bill like NCLB, but he couldn't do it.

[Fishteacher73]

Speaking as a teacher I feel that NCLB is a poor piece of legislature that is not funded, will never properly be funded and result in a big jumble of burnt out teachers (I myself one, planning on not returning next year), unused potential in students and a rainforest's trees in paperwork.

 

The primary goal of "education" today is to train kids to pass the exams. NOt to learn, develop crittical thinking skills, or spark ones mind. This trend can be illustrated by the addition of a writing portion on the SAT. So many students have already been fed into this die that they cannot function in a true academic environment. Ask the average TX student (where Bush pioneer the NCLB junk) to reply to an essay question. They drool and short ciruit. Our system has ceased to be anything more than a factory to excrete, at best, a mediocre product.

[Buffy]

If you think that Bush, Rove or the "conservatives" have anything to do with the existing debalce in American educaiton, you need a vision adjustment. One could argue that NCLB did not assist in incentives toward critical thinking, but that is becasue NCLB was fundamentally oreinted toward getting elementary school kids reading at all.

My complaints go back to prop 13 in California which now has this state in the bottom 10% of per child expenditures in the country, and this on-going problem has been a core element of the "conservative" movement. Sorry, but blaming the teachers unions is getting just as shop-worn.

It would be nice if you could at least occasionally drop the scathing anti-Bush diatribe. It sucks all of the credibility out of your arguments. Clinton would have given his left testicle to pass a bill like NCLB, but he couldn't do it.

Well sure, but with a "vote against anything that Clinton's for" attitude in the last six years of his Presidency, he had to pick his battles. OTOH, Bush passed it with a lap dog congress and then *did not fund it*.

 

You got me wrong on Bush: I think he's a nice guy, and he's using what he thinks is a moral and right-thinking attitude in making decisions. While the puppet thing is way over-played--you don't do what he's done by being the village idiot--he's no policy wonk, does not understand the implications of some of his decisions (and therefore does get pushed around by the neo-cons on his staff who in my book are no where near as people savvy as he is),, and has a deeply ingrained belief (unfortunately like many Americans) that "if people would just think like we do everything would be okay" or worse “If this were a dictatorship, it would be a lot easier—just as long as I’m the dictator” (yes, it was a joke but it was a clear indicator of his world view)...

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[peacegirl]

maybe language and information are too damn accessible not to be abused. maybe i take things too damn seriously sometimes. and then maybe when a series of facts are collected in sevice to speculation/theory it is just economical in a linguistic sense to address said speculation/theory as though it were fact. either way i wish i could turn on a television program on the discovery channel or pbs concerning anthropology or biology and not be treated to a bastardizating of reason for the sake of narrative convenience. 'you see', some cheery faced celebrity proclaims, 'whales are the ancestors of cows', or 'its remarkable when you realize that birds are actually the descendants of dinosaurs'. i am happy to concede the possibility of a factual validity to such theories but why not call something what it is. to jump from spectulation (however fact based and reasonable speculation is still speculation) to fact as a matter of convenience is doing a serious disservice to education. impressionable minds exposed to such material (i.e. children, the most consistently underestimated and disrespected faction of televisions audience) are not likely to question the validity of such statements and so what is learned is not fact or truth but a distortion thereof. call me crazy but i would much rather hear 'the predominant theory is...', or even 'most scientist believe that...' than THIS IS THE FACT JACK.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Children are the most vulnerable because they cannot determine what is fact and what is not. They believe that what they see on t.v. must be fact, therefore they accept what is being taught without question. We need to give our children permission to reject an idea if it is not backed up by evidence or sound reasoning.

[rockytriton]

A good read on such ideas is Bill Bryson's A Short History of Nearly Everything.

 

I loved that book, he's really a great author. Actually reading that book made me think about this issue a lot. It made me wonder why I was taught in school as if all of these theories were absolute fact. In that book he uses a lot of things where he says "..... but now of course we know that .... is really true". I wonder how many times this was said up until now and how many times it will be said in the future about the things we are oh so sure about now.

[Biochemist]

...Sorry, but blaming the teachers unions is getting just as shop-worn...

At least you have changed the argument to an actual problem source (versus" blame the teachers"). The unions are a problem. The second (related) problem is the size of the public school bureaucracy. They do such a poor job of rationalizing services (particularly for the special needs kids) that they raise the cost of all education for all kids, and add yet more bureaucracy. In Oregon, the public schools cost as muich as the very good private schools, and are a miserable comparison in quality in most cases (there are one or two counterexamples). The problem is NOT money. It is organization.

Well sure, but with a "vote against anything that Clinton's for" attitude in the last six years of his Presidency, he had to pick his battles. OTOH, Bush passed it with a lap dog congress and then *did not fund it*.

Let see. When Clinton was successful, it was to his credit. When Clinton was unsuccessful, it was not his fault. When Bush is successful, it was not to his crediut. Nope, no bias there.

While the puppet thing is way over-played..-he's no policy wonk, does not understand the implications of some of his decisions ..

Maybe. But who did? Clinton? Carter? Kennedy? Johnson? The only guy that really seemed to correctly see the future was Reagan, and most of us frankly have a hard time believeng that he did. But he seemed to. If we have any single stable democracy in the mesopotamian crescent in the next 20 years, most will credit the Buch presidency. If it turns out that a local stable democracy is integral to local stability, it will be as big as the Berlin wall falling. Now, it might not happen. But if it does, that is exactly what Bush is saying will happen. Suppose he is right??????

[peacegirl]

I loved that book, he's really a great author. Actually reading that book made me think about this issue a lot. It made me wonder why I was taught in school as if all of these theories were absolute fact. In that book he uses a lot of things where he says "..... but now of course we know that .... is really true". I wonder how many times this was said up until now and how many times it will be said in the future about the things we are oh so sure about now.

 

It sounds like a good book because it makes one realize that there is the possibility that certain 'facts' that we assume to be true, could actually be false. This, in turn, can prevent us from learning what the real truth is on a given subject, which is very backward, don't you think?

[Biochemist]

....The primary goal of "education" today is to train kids to pass the exams. NOt to learn, develop crittical thinking skills, or spark ones mind. ...

I do understand and empathize with the perspective here Fst, but the problem is not that we are exam focused, it is that kids cannot pass the minimum entry exams in so many jurisdictions. Critical thinking is not a useful focus for kids who can't read, write and add. The core problem is lack of parental involvement. I think that individual public schools should be allowed to require parental participation or the kids can't go there. Imagine how that school would do. Think of how it would change the blame-the-teacher paradigm if a school could require parents to show up at school, assist in development of homework study habits and also sign off on elements of homework.

 

You have probably seen this sample 8th grade graduation test (this one from Kansas in 1895)

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, KS - 1895

 

Grammar

(Time, one hour)

 

 

1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
   
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
   
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
   
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
   
5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case.
   
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
   
7. - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
   

Arithmetic

(Time, 1.25 hours)

1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
   
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
   
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cts. per bu., deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
   
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
   
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
   
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
   
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per m?
   
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
   
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?
   
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.
    

U.S. History

(Time, 45 minutes)

1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
   
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
   
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
   
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
   
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
   
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
   
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
   
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, and 1865?
   

Orthography

(Time, one hour)

1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthography, etymology, syllabication?
   
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
   
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
   
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.
   
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two exceptions under each rule.
   
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
   
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super.
   
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
   
9. Use the following correctly in sentences, Cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
   
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
    

Geography

(Time, one hour)

1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
   
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
   
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
   
4. Describe the mountains of N.A.
   
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fermandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
   
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
   
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
   
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
   
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
   
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.
    

Imagine a college student who went to public school trying to pass this test, even if the few outdated questions were modernized.

As a further point:

Even adjusting for inflation, modern schools receive far more money per student. In fact, the amount of money spent per student has increased by an inflation-adjusted $1000 per decade for fifty years, yet results have steadily fallen. Perhaps money isn't the problem.

Wouldn't it be a LOT easier to teach critical thinking to a 9th grader that passed the above exam????