Does anyone actually believe???

[rockytriton]

After reading several posts about religion here, I've come to assume things about some people. I don't like to make assumptions, so I'll just ask the question. Does anyone here actually believe that if someone was born in another country that was never exposted to Christianity and that person spent their life being good and helping others, that person would go to hell, because they never believed in Jesus or God, however you would want to put it. Does anyone really thing that this would be a possibility? How about if someone came one day and told them about Jesus and they didn't believe the person, would they absolutely be expected to believe that person? I've come to think that some people actually feel this way, I just can't imagine how they would think that God would punish someone for not knowing about him. :)

[Buffy]

Well according to certain fundamentalist groups--not all, and I won't venture a guess a percentage--these people will not be Raptured because only people who have accepted Jesus as their Savior and been properly baptised are eligible for the free ride out. They will have to survive Armageddon, but if by the end of the end times they have *still* not accepted Jesus as their Savior, then yes, they're doomed. They get one chance and one chance only, and of course the thing thats a problem is that the end-times will be filled with false prophets and they pick the tiger rather than the lady, well, you don't wanna know. The Left Behind series (eleven volumes so far I think) is one of the biggest selling books of all time: I'll leave it to you to draw your own conclusions....I know quite a few people personally who do subscribe to this view, so its definitely not a myth.

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[C1ay]

Food for thought.

 

I believe the Old Testament God killed lots of people and started with a clean slate here and there.

I think the New Testament God believes in forgiveness and love thy neighbor type stuff.

 

It's hard for me to provide any more input than this since I don't believe in any God, heaven or hell anyhow. When I die my lights will go out and science will cut me up and distribute me as it sees fit, no heaven or hell for me.

[Queso]

i don't believe in any of that crap. plain and simple.

[Buffy]

All I can say is that it sounds like Heaven will be very lightly populated. The rest of us will all be able to feel sorry for them as we revell in our decadence and debauchery. :) :) :)

 

Cheers,

Buffy

[rockytriton]

I just really find it hard to believe that a god would create something and make punish it for doing things that it was intended to do. If you believe that God created man, then you must believe that he made it his nature to question things, and then why would he punish man for questioning things? I can't imagine that people would seriously believe this, which leads me to believe that the people who have that sort of attitude here are really just trolling and trying to get people upset so they can see how they respond.

[bumab]

I just really find it hard to believe that a god would create something and make punish it for doing things that it was intended to do. If you believe that God created man, then you must believe that he made it his nature to question things, and then why would he punish man for questioning things?

 

Who said questioning was a bad thing? It's a great thing!

[rockytriton]

Who said questioning was a bad thing? It's a great thing!

 

Yes, I agree, but it seems that the bible makes it pretty clear that if you question that Jesus is the messiah, then you will burn in hell for all eternity. Why would God make it our nature to question things only to punish us when we do?

[bumab]

You've really asked two different questions, so I'll seperate them and *attempt* to answer them.

 

Does anyone here actually believe that if someone was born in another country that was never exposted to Christianity and that person spent their life being good and helping others, that person would go to hell, because they never believed in Jesus or God, however you would want to put it. Does anyone really thing that this would be a possibility?

 

Good question, and one I think about a lot. To many groups, yeah, they're screwed. But to many theologians, C.S. Lewis included (a big one), it's not so simple as that. The instructions Jesus gave were to love God and love your neighbor. But one can certainly worship God without knowing everything about him (not that anyone does). Christians don't own God, remember. It's like a "God under another name," same God, same values, same worship, but not "God." In the Chronicles of Narnia series (pretty entertaining kids books, but the later ones take on some deep issues), Lewis puts forth the idea of some kids finding themselves in heaven, where they run into a soldier from the other side (i.e. followed a different God, like a member of a different relgion). They were obviously confused, "what are you doing here?" So was the soldier- "I was on the wrong side!" Then the Jesus figure comes up and explains- "While you worshiped the other guy, you were actually loving me. The other guy was all about evil, betrayal, hate, etc, but you worshiped him with humility, love, sacrafice, love for fellow man, etc. You were worshiping me under a different name!" (Everything paraphrased from memory, I don't have the book with me).

 

It's a controversial stance, to be sure, but I think it's a Biblical one. Even Paul says of a city in Italy- "you are already worshiping God, it's your alter to an "unnamed" God." I think the important part is humility- understanding that there is a God out there, we arn't it, and we can't be it. Science especially falls into this trap, since we often tell ourselves we are it, the universe is what we see and can understand, etc. It's a pretty inflated sense of self, really, and discounted by us- our will, our concious thoughts, etc.

 

How about if someone came one day and told them about Jesus and they didn't believe the person, would they absolutely be expected to believe that person? I've come to think that some people actually feel this way, I just can't imagine how they would think that God would punish someone for not knowing about him. :xx:

 

This is different, this is about somebody who, told the truth, chooses to believe that man is all there is, and thus we got to be "us" by our own power or will. This goes back to my inflated sense of self idea before.

 

Finally, don't get to hung up on heaven and hell. While many Christians seem to play it up as the purpose for believing (consumer Christianity- buy in and get out!), it's really not an emphasis for most of the Bible, really only the last book. The purpose of having a relationship with God is not saving your butt, rather it's having a relationship with God, sharing in the creative work, etc. It's really not my business who goes to heaven and hell.

 

but that's just my humble opinion. I commend you for asking before drawing conclusions about folks. I often draw conclusions, and really should follow your lead and actually ask :)

[Tormod]

I've come to think that some people actually feel this way, I just can't imagine how they would think that God would punish someone for not knowing about him. :xx:

 

This is what missionaries are making a living from.

[Biochemist]

i don't believe in any of that crap. plain and simple.

Gentle now, Orb.

[Queso]

gentle? man trust me that's pretty gentle compared to how ungentle i could be towards this topic. opinions, opinions, opinions.

[rockytriton]

It's a controversial stance, to be sure, but I think it's a Biblical one. Even Paul says of a city in Italy- "you are already worshiping God, it's your alter to an "unnamed" God." I think the important part is humility- understanding that there is a God out there, we arn't it, and we can't be it. Science especially falls into this trap, since we often tell ourselves we are it, the universe is what we see and can understand, etc. It's a pretty inflated sense of self, really, and discounted by us- our will, our concious thoughts, etc.

 

I think the main people who tend to have a problem with this are the baptists. When I was a youngster (around 5 years old), my mom decided it would be a good idea to send me to the local baptist church. The only thing that I remember from it was, and keep in mind that this was the kid section, how much intense pain and suffering that I would be in and how horribly I would be burning if I didn't follow Jesus and get baptised and all of that. I seem to remember coming home upset and crying and was never sent back there. This has made me kind of scared to send my kids to church but I didn't want to bias my opinion on on church. Right now they are going (with my wife) to the local methodist church and they seem to be down to earth there. I would go, I don't mind the sermons, but I just can't stand all of the singing they do.

 

Also I think that the catholics have some sort of rule that you cannot go to heaven if you don't confess your sins to a priest, but I tend to ignore their rules as they seem more like a government than a religion to me.

[Biochemist]

This thread has gotten a lot more interesting as I watched it mature. I am going to pick on some of you folks here, but please take it good heartedly.:xx:

...Does anyone here actually believe that if someone was born in another country that was never exposted to Christianity and that person spent their life being good and helping others, that person would go to hell...

Some people do believe this, as Buffy and Bumab have pointed out. But as Bumab pointed out, it is probalby a little more complicated than that. A couple of key points:

 

 

1. Salvation through Christ has nothing to do with being good. The core thesis of Christianity is that no one is good enough, and all need to be saved. That is why Christ had to show up at all.
   
2. I think pretty much everyone (Christian) agrees that salvation is only "through Christ". The problem is that "through" is a little vague.
   
3. Most Christians (nearly all) agree, for example, that Abraham was saved. Clearly, he never heard the name of Jesus, and had only a vague understanding of what God wanted in terms of redemption. But Abraham's faith is the reference model (in Romans 4) for what faith really is. Faith is not "believing things that you know are not true" (as the little boy in Sunday school offered). Faith is responding to the revelation that God gives you.
   
4. The value of the New Testament is that we (luckliy?) have a more complete revelation than Abraham did. In a very real sense, more information is more power. We think the same thing about the scientific method. This means that we have a clearer understanding of God's purposes because we have a more extensive revelation about them.
   

these people will not be Raptured because only people who have accepted Jesus as their Savior

Buffy walked in the quagmire of "eschatology", the discussion of what happens in the "end times". And it was an elegant attempt Buff, but I took Rockytriton's question to be more related to what happens to us now, versus at then "end".

I think the New Testament God believes in forgiveness and love thy neighbor type stuff.

C1- I don't think that God changed much over the testaments. People certainly did. The forgiveness model is described in detail in the New Testament because the mechanism for forgiveness was finally displayed (that would be Jesus). I don't think God is any more forgiving in the New Testament than the Old. He just described more of the story.

I just really find it hard to believe that a god would create something and make punish it for doing things that it was intended to do.

This is a really outstanding point. But the real question is this: What were we intended to do? A Christian would contend that this is not all about us. It is all abour God. God is not punishing us for disobedience as much as leading us into a relationship. That is where the "loving Father" reference comes in.

This is what missionaries are making a living from.

There are ubdoubtedly lots of missionaries that sell Jesus as fire insurance. I don't think it is even a substantial minority. The purpose of missions is to preach the "good news" that God has an elegant plan for us. This is much more focused on getting heaven into Christians that the reverse.

[Biochemist]

... it seems that the bible makes it pretty clear that if you question that Jesus is the messiah, then you will burn in hell for all eternity...

Jesus usually engaged folks that questioned Him, with the exception of church leaders that were at cross purposes with God. In John 3, Jesus responds in great detail to Nicodemus (a Pharisee of all things) who came to see Jesus at night, presumably because he was afraid of censure by the other Pharisees.

 

I suspect (with no particular knowledge) that God regards your questions here just like Nicodemus'. They are an investigation, not a rejection.

[rockytriton]

I have a feeling that if the whole story of Jesus is true, then he will give those people who have lived a "good" life and have not been exposed to him a chance to accept him when they die. I seem to remember reading something in the bible a while ago where he said that he may accept someone who has been immoral and is truley regretful but he may reject someone who lived their whole life for him and did not give a good example to others. I think it may have been somewhere in Matthew, I seem to remember him saying something like "you do not know me". This I think would be very important, but it seems to be ignored by those who have the ideal that you must be baptised or burn forever.

[Biochemist]

gentle? man trust me that's pretty gentle compared to how ungentle i could be towards this topic. opinions, opinions, opinions.

In that case, I am thankful for modicum of grace you have demonstrated so far.