Captured 2003, charged 2008, tried 2009... Khalid Shaikh Mohammed

[Theory5]

So there is a trial coming up for this guy Khalid Shaikh Mohammed , and seven others right?

 

I looked up some stuff and wikipedia says we convicted him of terrorist acts (it does not say 9/11). I looked up on other sites and one site (nytimes: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us/15ksm.html) says that he was captured in 2003, and was held in a bunch of secret CIA prisons as well as an American military prison in cuba.

So... a five year gap between capture and convicted, and then another year until a trial.

Where has he been for all these years? All the news says is a bunch of secret CIA prisons in Europe.

Why do we have secret prisons in Europe? Why did it take so long to convict him? Why does everybody still say he "allegedly" did this stuff? Did he or didn't he? He has been in our custody for six or seven years, we should know by now. When he was arrested they did find a hard drive with some pretty condemning evidence (see wikipedia article), but why did it take so long to convict him then?

Any another thing, his confessions seem a little widespread. Plans to bomb Big Ben, and assassinate not only Bill Clinton, but Pope John Paul II and Pervez Musharraf. As well as a confession of the Bali nightclub bombings.

 

I have a few theories.

1. It is some sort of distraction. The government is trying to take our eyes off of something else by doing this trial. They know that the media will pretty much keep their eyes on this happening for a good two weeks or so, enough time for something big to happen...

 

2. The government knows a lot more than they are telling us, and they probably have been torturing this guy for information for five years. In his most recent picture, doesn't he seem a little different? Its obvious that prison has a negative effect on a persons overall health and appearance, but to me he looks a little brain damaged, like he is not all there. I don't think that was an early morning picture they took of him.

 

Anyone have anything to say?

EDIT: I think I know why he seems a little brain damaged, and It has nothing to do with government conspiracies and illegal test subjects for experimental brain stuff :-)

Apparently the CIA water boarded him for 2 and a half minutes, before he started to talk. Who here can hold their breath for two minutes?

[Turtle]

:shrug: there is no conviction as the trial has not taken place and a conviction is an outcome of a trial.

 

pretty much all you wrote is grossly misundertaken. taken in the context of many of your reactive posts to media reports, notice i didn't say news, i have to say this is just another. i suggest you watch PBS news if you want information that has any semblance of factual content and unbiased reports. :hihi: no...really. :)

 

ps you referred to a wiki but didn't give the link. if it actually does say "convicted", then a note to the editors is called for.

[lawcat]

I don't agree with the 5 year holding period. That is horrible. But, we executed Saddam. That was really bad.

[freeztar]

I looked up some stuff and wikipedia says we convicted him of terrorist acts (it does not say 9/11).

 

There's a whole section on it.

 

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I looked up on other sites and one site (nytimes: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/15/us/15ksm.html) says that he was captured in 2003, and was held in a bunch of secret CIA prisons as well as an American military prison in cuba.

So... a five year gap between capture and convicted, and then another year until a trial.

Where has he been for all these years? All the news says is a bunch of secret CIA prisons in Europe.

Why do we have secret prisons in Europe?

 

This wiki should explain it.

 

Extraordinary rendition by the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why did it take so long to convict him?

 

He's not convicted yet. He's still awaiting trial. Perhaps you mean "charged"? It took so long to charge him because he did not go in front of a military commission until 2008.

 

Check out this wiki: Military Commissions Act of 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Why does everybody still say he "allegedly" did this stuff?

 

Innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.

[C1ay]

Just a minor point of clarification here. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was captured as a prisoner of war on foreign soil and is not a U.S. citizen entitled to any U.S. constitutional rights.

[Theory5]

:cheer: there is no conviction as the trial has not taken place and a conviction is an outcome of a trial.

 

pretty much all you wrote is grossly misundertaken. taken in the context of many of your reactive posts to media reports, notice i didn't say news, i have to say this is just another. i suggest you watch PBS news if you want information that has any semblance of factual content and unbiased reports. :( no...really. :)

 

ps you referred to a wiki but didn't give the link. if it actually does say "convicted", then a note to the editors is called for.

 

sorry I assumed everybody would just type in Khalid Shaikh Mohammed in the wikipedia page. I will provide links to wiki's next time.

He has had a few military trials and yes I meant to say charged.

He was charged on February 11, 2008, with war crimes and murder by a U.S. military commission and faces the death penalty if convicted.

 

I still think this latest trial is just a farce. He has been before a bunch of military courts, and now a public one?

 

Just a minor point of clarification here. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was captured as a prisoner of war on foreign soil and is not a U.S. citizen entitled to any U.S. constitutional rights.

Thats another thing, just because he is a prisoner of war doesn't mean he needs to be tortured, and they are trying him in civil court! We shouldn't torture at all!

 

Extraordinary rendition by the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is another thing. If the government can do this without US citizen knowledge, then just think of what ELSE they can do without our knowledge!

 

I don't agree with the 5 year holding period. That is horrible. But, we executed Saddam. That was really bad.

yes. I remember when I was little and saddam was in power, my mother was watching a report on his tyranny, and it showed a line of people going somewhere. The report said stuff about pulling out tongues and killing and a bunch of other horrible methods of torture. I then turned to my mother and asked her why we didn't go in there and liberate the people of their tyrant. She said it's because it wasn't our place to do that. This was when Clinton was in office I think.

Now skip ahead to when bush is in office and he starts the war. I just didn't understand. We had all the power and resources to do this when he first started, but then we just sidetracked in our mission to find Osama, casually (well maybe not casually, but with ease) liberated the people of the horrible tyrant, and went on with our war...

I see the government as a group of people that only work to benefit themselves.

I am sorry if I have misunderstood what is happening. But need i remind you that I am an 18 year old who lives and grew up in America? I do more than just read one newspaper when I want to find something out, but it is always hard to sift through all the crap, and when you do, the remaining substance is so little!

[C1ay]

If that is used in court will they be able to use it against him?

 

That's entirely possible. He is not a U.S. citizen and has no 5th amendment rights under the U.S. Constitution since he was captured at war on foreign soil. Had he been arrested on U.S. soil for a crime committed here his situation would be different. I am not familiar enough with the Geneva Conventions to know how it might apply to criminal proceedings in the U.S. judicial system. It may or may not have provisions the U.S. may be bound to as a signer to those Conventions that may afford KSM some rights not provided him by the U.S. Constitution.

[Theory5]

That's entirely possible. He is not a U.S. citizen and has no 5th amendment rights under the U.S. Constitution since he was captured at war on foreign soil. Had he been arrested on U.S. soil for a crime committed here his situation would be different. I am not familiar enough with the Geneva Conventions to know how it might apply to criminal proceedings in the U.S. judicial system. It may or may not have provisions the U.S. may be bound to as a signer to those Conventions that may afford KSM some rights not provided him by the U.S. Constitution.

 

From what i have heard and understand The Geneva Conventions are somewhat optional. I belive it says that the Geneva conventions only have to be used if the enemy is following them as well.

I belive this sums it up:

The Geneva Conventions apply at times of war and armed conflict to governments who have ratified its terms.

From the wiki article Geneva Conventions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Therefore a war against anybody else, such as a small group of people that do not operate within a government, does not need to be humanly fought... and Im not sure if Iraq is even a signer of the Geneva Conventions, and if they are then we are not following them...

[C1ay]

From what i have heard and understand The Geneva Conventions are somewhat optional. I belive it says that the Geneva conventions only have to be used if the enemy is following them as well.

 

... and Im not sure if Iraq is even a signer of the Geneva Conventions, and if they are then we are not following them...

 

Signers of the Conventions should follow the terms of the Conventions regardless of the enemies actions.

 

KSM is not a POW of the war in Iraq but of the war on terror, mainly that against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. If I remember correctly he was actually captured in Pakistan by troops fighting the Taliban in the mountains there that cross into Afghanistan.

[Buffy]

While I agree that C1ay's scenario is a perfectly legitimate interpretation, it does appear that the US Attorney General is taking the interpretation that since the actual perpetrators did in fact carry out at least the final planning and preparation on US soil and the acts themselves were entirely within US territory, KSM as an instigator and primary conspirator was simply subject to international extradition laws under a charge of 3000 counts of conspiracy to murder with hate crime enhancements, and Pakistan lawfully captured and extradited him in accordance with bilateral treaties between the US and Pakistan.

 

My personal opinion is that given the virtual certainty of a conviction, a civilian trial will give the US a much stronger historical image by virtue of giving KSM the maximal number of civil rights to a fair trial.

 

As to the right-wing's bleating that it's somehow dangerous to give him a "platform," I say he'll be just like Sarah Palin: he'll open his mouth and prove what a pathetic, selfish, and evil person he is.

 

Do we really fear freedom of speech in this country?

 

If so, then al Qaeda has already won the War on Terror....

 

I told the Congress, 'Thanks, but no thanks,' on that Bridge to Nowhere, :rolleyes:

Buffy

[lemit]

Okay, Theory5, U.S. foreign policy sucks. Americans who knew what was happening in the outside world (despite our American educations) have said that to anybody who would listen since the Mexican War first established the U.S. as an empire-building nation ( Digital History). Trouble was, not that many people would listen.

 

Now, with an indifferent, isolationist populace and--in terms of foreign policy--a shadow government that survives all political shifts and can muster a very strong military, what would you do? I'm serious about this. We need a course of action, not just another reminder that action is needed.

 

Thanks.

 

--lemit

 

p.s. Before you start, maybe you should read a little more history of the American Left. There is, for example, a wonderful archive at the University of Wisconsin. But don't let that, or me, destroy your fervor. Plenty of that is needed too.

[Buffy]

.... since the Mexican War first established the U.S. as an empire-building nation...

Hey we were "liberating" the American Indians! You know the Messikins were trying to destroy their culture by interbreeding and assimilating them, whereas we benevolent Americans wanted them to preserve their culture through the Reservation system!

...maybe you should read a little more history of the American Left...

Yah, ya know you'd learn how we'd be so much better off without the horrible effects that commies like Upton Sinclair had on our society!

 

I aimed at the public's heart, and by accident I hit it in the stomach, :phones:

Buffy

[Theory5]

Now, with an indifferent, isolationist populace and--in terms of foreign policy--a shadow government that survives all political shifts and can muster a very strong military, what would you do? I'm serious about this. We need a course of action, not just another reminder that action is needed.

 

The basis of any rebellion, any protest, any political movement, is a group of like minded people. They might not be the majority, but there is enough of them to get the word out and spread their views. So I need people. And to get people to understand the cause I need to write speeches. And find an audience. Unfortunately, I doubt myself (or anyone else) can bring about a complete radical change that would forever alter humanities course. However changing our educational system and a few other systems while we are at it can start the slow change to putting us back on the right track. To educate our children, and change the way they look at the world, and see it not as different countries with weird customs and beliefs that are too strange to attempt to understand, but as other places made up of fellow human beings.

This will probably take generations, but once humanity is on the right course, it will be able to achieve greater things. Such as living for a couple more centuries or so. Commercial and personal space travel. Little luxuries to make lives better and easier such as developing advanced AI, robots, autonomous machines, voice recognition software that actually works, and comfortable public transportation. That sort of thing.

 

Lemit I really would love to try to write papers and speeches and discuss them with other like minded people. The problem is I can't seem to find any people who actually have the same ideas and want to do something about it.

 

This is not a movement that will lead people .This movement will educate people so they can do what they think is right. There will be no leader or spokesperson but a public forum for everyone to say what they want. There will be no forcing of idea's and beliefs upon somebody else, this will show people that information is power and that everybody must wield information for the good of not just themselves but for their fellow human beings.

 

As to the right-wing's bleating that it's somehow dangerous to give him a "platform," I say he'll be just like Sarah Palin: he'll open his mouth and prove what a pathetic, selfish, and evil person he is.

Hear, Hear, Buffy!

 

Do we really fear freedom of speech in this country?

Oh its not freedom of speech we fear, we have learned to fear others opinions and beliefs. I believe its the media and the government that slowly taught the public to fear opinions and people who are different from them.