Immigration Reform in U.S.

[lawcat]

Well, the majority-democrats, as well as republicans, are moving to reform immigration laws. The talks started in April, and committees have held a few hearings. One of the hearings, that prompted me to add it here, occured in April in the Senate Judiciary Committee for Immigration Reform, chaired by Chuck Schumer who always does an exceptional job. (and to back up my claim, please visit Schumer's concise and true findings on the mortgage crisis in America, at http://jec.senate.gov/archive/Documents/Reports/10.25.07OctoberSubprimeReport.pdf)

 

In April's testimony on the problem of illegal immigration in front of the Committee, they had: former Fed chair Alan Greenspan; a chief of police of Montgomery County, Maryland, and a Director of the major City's Chiefs Association; Jeff Mosley, President of the Houston Association of businesses, and Dr. Joel Hunter, a Senior Pastor from Longwood, Florida. A nice diverse, powerful, and intellectual group.

 

Greenspan spoke about general implications of illegal immigration; he provided real numbers reflecting the benefits that illegal immigration contributes to the country. he also spoke about costs, and a possibility of disruption to social structure. He concluded that the benefits outweight the costs, in financial terms, and that the salaries of american actually rise due to illegal immigration. in addition, while immigration reform should not open flodgates of immigration, Greenspan concluded that our economy can absorb large number of immigrants in a beneficial way. his testimony can be read here: Testimony

 

The Chief of Police testified about real problems that local governments face in enforcing immigration laws: First, local governments are not funded to enforce immigration laws, and have to do it from their own budget. Second, they are often not qualified to provide federal law enforcement. Third, federal law enforcement takes away their resources from enforcing more serious crimes, instead of checking on someone who has overstayed a visa. But more importantly, he spoke about a prblem that illegal immigrants face: they are constantly in hiding, they distrust the police and the government for fear of prosecution or deportation. Thus, they are not properly protected by the law, their children are not protected, and they are taken advantage of by those who know that they are in fear of their status. Testimony.

 

Jeff Mosley spoke about the needs of the business community for foreign labor including illegal immigrant labor. Testimony.

 

But the most interesting testimony in my opinion came from Joel Hunter, the Pastor. Here was a man speaking from a religious perspective on the issue of immigration. It was very odd to hear the talk of God in Senate Chambers. But his testimony touched my deeply, and as Senator Schumer said: "Pastor, your testimony was tour de force." So I will quote it here, and the hearing can be seen here: View a Hearing or Meeting (click on "Webcast").

 

Thank you Chairman Schumer, distinguished members of the subcommittee, esteemed colleagues on this panel, and other guests, for providing me an opportunity to speak on the moral and religious reasons for immigration reform.

 

I am a one of hundreds of thousands of local religious leaders in this country. I have been a pastor for almost 40 years and that is what I want to be in all my years remaining.

 

Even though I am also in leadership positions of national and international groups that are dealing with immigration, it is at the local level that I am continually reminded that policy truly does hurt or help people.

 

In my faith tradition we all start as strangers and aliens, outsiders to the commonwealth of God. But because we have a God who was willing to do what it took to include us (at great personal cost), we "are no longer strangers and aliens, but [we] are fellow citizens?" (Ephesians 2:18-19a)

 

So I find it a high honor to speak to those in power as an advocate for those who have no power. In a verse that would be echoed in many religions, Proverbs 31:8 commands us to "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves."

"You will make known to me the path of life?" (Psalm 16:11)

 

The hope of any religion is that those who have been on the wrong path can be set upon the right path. The need for Comprehensive Immigration Reform is to create a path that will help people do the right thing. A broken system produces a dysfunctional society, fractured families, and it increases the vulnerability of both legal and illegal residents. It helps criminals who thrive in the shadows and it harms decent people, consigning them to a life of insecurity, hiding, and minimal contribution to the general welfare.

 

A broken system produces both broken and crooked people. The cost to our nation in terms of productivity, national unity, and national security is depressing. But it does not compare to the damage being done to individuals and families.

 

 

A broken system tempts many to predatory practices. I cannot count the stories I have heard about attorneys taking the entire life savings of undocumented workers, producing no results, then abandoning those workers when the money was gone. Is that typical of the profession? We would not believe so. But "lead me not into temptation." It is a mighty temptation to de-prioritize those who are desperate and too intimidated to raise their voices to complain. And what about employers that take advantage of the powerless because there is no system of accountability?

 

Or the bureaucrats that have no incentive to produce results (or even to keep track of the paperwork) because, who will know? Or the talk show hosts that increase their fame and fortune by picturing those without the proper papers only as conniving and dangerous parasites instead of persons made in the image of God, deserving both respect and help to do the right thing? We are producing cottage industries of exploitation. We are also hearing millions of stories that are the opposite of the American dream.

 

My friend Rev. Silas Pintos tells of a family in his Hispanic congregation that came from

England. Both the husband and wife were successful business people, and they hoped that in the U.S. their children would be immersed in a better environment for family values. So they came to start an alternative energy company. After a two-year ordeal with the immigration system and absurd legal fees, the immigration department could not even clearly explain to them why their residency application had not gone through. They returned to England emotionally and financially devastated.

 

My friend Imam Mohammed Musri told me the wife of a 60 year old man in his congregation was very sick. The man had papers but when the attorney handling his case took a judgeship, the man was not told he needed to re-register. He was deported even though his wife was too sick to go with him. She was hospitalized and died without him because he could not get back into the country to be by her side.

 

Pastor Augustine Davies is on the staff at my church. He and his wife are from Sierra Leone and have just completed the long and arduous task of becoming citizens, but they have special relationships with many of the Africans inside and outside our congregation who are caught in the system. One of them is George.

 

George is from Liberia, West Africa. He is married and has four adult children who live in poverty back in his home country. When George arrived, INS approved the refugee for TPS. George completed a nursing program and got a job. He was turned down for TPS 3 renewal, but now George feels the almost crushing pressure of providing for his family and other countrymen who need the money he can send them because of his job. He stays in the shadows for now. I do not agree with what he is doing, but I know his present life is because he loves his family, not because he is out for himself.

 

Our immigration system can also intimidate congregations as well as individuals and families. My friend Rabbi Steven Engel told me that his congregation had sponsored a family from Argentina to come to the U.S. The INS lost the paperwork many times, and they made regular visits to the synagogue, suspicious that the congregation might be doing something wrong. The whole process was so stressful and unwelcoming that when Sergio died from a heart attack at the age of 43 the remaining family returned to Argentina.

 

These stories and many others don't live up to the ideals of our country. We can do better, and we know it. Everyone is frustrated with the present system. Our immigration system in many cases has us echoing the words of the despairing saint who proclaimed,

 

"I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate."

(Romans 7:15)

 

The urgency for immigration reform that yields efficiency and compassion cannot be overstated because it is so overdue.

 

The Moral Principles for a better system

Some of the central principles that comprise most major religions are also woven into our country's history and can be used as a standard for immigration reform:

 

These principles deem each person as valuable, "endowed by their Creator" with a dignity that transcends earthly circumstance. Therefore, our system must treat each person respectfully.

 

They acknowledge the family as the bedrock of personal and social development, and the support of the family as the foundation of a strong society. Therefore, our system should prioritize the family.

 

They see law as not only necessary for restraining evil, but as needed for structuring healthy relationships. It is right that wrongdoers are restrained and/or punished, but it is a better justice when the laws yield correction and the redemption of bad circumstances.

 

 

Therefore, our system should have ways to choose to live upright lives after the penalties for wrong decisions. So most people of faith are hoping for policies that will prioritize family togetherness, respect for the law, personal productivity, and compassion for those who are most helpless.

 

Conclusion

 

We do not envy you your charge. Immigration reform is a morally complex as well as a politically explosive challenge. But many of us are praying earnestly for you and for God's wisdom in this matter.

 

Including the stranger is not just a matter of compassion but a necessity for greatness.

 

Loving your neighbor as you love yourself is not only a moral commandment but a path

to national nobility, if we can build a nation of families and support networks that not only help the marginalized to be successful, but help the successful to be helpful, then we can better live up to our potential as a people.

 

In the end, I believe our nation will be not be judged by the productivity of our budgets, or the genius of our laws, or even the earnestness of our faith communities. We will be judged, both by history and by God, by the way we treated people, especially those who needed our help.

[Cedars]

That was a long post so I am not even going to try to respond to it other than generally.

 

1. We have had immigration reform and the powers that be promised to enforce the laws after the last amnesty. The problem we have now is they did not enforce the laws.

 

2. Greenspan has lost all credibility with me. I am to the point, if he says so, I think we should do the opposite.

 

3. Since when does local police enforce immigration? What a crock. Local law enforcement is generally hands-tied in that theres all kinds of laws and crap PREVENTING them for asking for green cards.

 

4. The business community can pay people more to work for them. They can offer scholarships, even get commitments from students to come work for them to pay off their degree. Theres lots of people applying for student loans. As far as student visa's, they come here to go back home and make their countries stronger. Theres been considerable whining from these other countries about our businesses stealing their students via the student visa programs.

 

5. I am not interested in what a pastor has to say. This is government and I agree that it should be separate from religion. I want the laws enforced for the next 10 years and lets see how bad the illegal problem really is.

 

I think we should crack down greatly on employers who use illegals. I think the fines should be 10x what they are. I think business licenses should be revoked on a second violation. I think priority should be given to re-working the SSN so less fraud can occur.

 

When they did the raid on the Colorado packing house there was over 700 applicants for the 150 jobs that opened up. That was two years ago. I imagine there would be double that now.

 

Anchor babies is a non-issue and has been for over a decade. Mexico gives those kids dual citizenship, unlike before when Mexico refused to recognize children born in the USA as citizens. There is no tearing apart of families, its voluntary.

 

Americans need the work. Priority should be enhancing american lives first and the rest of the world gets the table scraps.

[Buffy]

So you support labor unions, right?

 

If there is no worker involvement, there is no quality system,

Buffy

[Cedars]

So you support labor unions, right?

 

If there is no worker involvement, there is no quality system, :phones:

Buffy

 

How is this related to the OP?

[HydrogenBond]

Here is an interesting angle. There are laws against aiding and abetting criminals, which makes people harboring and aiding criminals, criminals themselves. Since the illegals have broken the law and a certain political party is helping them more than the other, does this make that party criminal. based on the aid and abetting laws?

[CraigD]

3. Since when does local police enforce immigration?

Since 1996, via Immigration and Nationality Act Section 287(g).

 

The details of the act and the US code it creates appears complicated – after a hour or so of legally inexpert reading, I still haven’t been able to connect the various factsheet descriptions of the act to the actual legislation and code – but its high-level intent and provisions seem simple: under the code, local law enforcement agencies and a US agency (DHS Immigrations and Customs Enforcement) can sign to Memoranda of Agreement under which the locals are trained in and enforce US immigration law.

 

A reasonably current (9/18/2008) list is linked to from the preceding linked Wikipedia article. Only a small fraction of locals – 840 officers under 63 MOAs – have formed this partnership with ICE.

What a crock. Local law enforcement is generally hands-tied in that theres all kinds of laws and crap PREVENTING them for asking for green cards.

I’ve heard of, and am curious, about such laws and/or regulations and policies, but have little credible information about them. Cedars, can you provide any links or references supporting you claim?

 

Details aside, the tradition of illegal entry into the US by foreign citizens, and their willful employment by US citizens, seems to me part of a profound and complicated cultural, economic, and legal situation.

 

Rather than acrimoniously laying blame on the various parties involved – foreigners for entering the US, US employers for employing them for lower wages than would be required to employ US citizens with comparable abilities, US businesses and consumers for purchasing goods and services at lower prices than similar goods and services from vendors and providers who employ only US citizens and legal immigrants – I think it’s better to consider how the situation could be improved. For I think the situation should be changed, because it produces a division of US society into citizens and a kind of institutionalized underclass, to the detriment of members of both classes.

 

The accounts of speeches and testimony lawcat describes hearten me that my Congress is working toward such improvements. They have my support.

 

What constructive ideas and suggestions can we offer?

[Cedars]

I’ve heard of, and am curious, about such laws and/or regulations and policies, but have little credible information about them. Cedars, can you provide any links or references supporting you claim?

FrontPage Magazine - Illegal Alien Sanctuary

 

Illegal immigrants netted by local police could be released | csmonitor.com

 

"On Sunday, April 19, 2009, Secretary Napolitano went on CNN’s “State of the Union” and proclaimed that crossing the border illegally is not a crime. This statement left a lot of folks scratching their heads given that U.S. law—the law Napolitano is sworn to uphold—says quite the opposite. Section 8, Title 1325 of the U.S. code clearly states that those who enter the U.S. illegally are committing a crime."

 

Quote from a forum. You can search for it yourself.

 

 

What constructive ideas and suggestions can we offer?

 

Enforce the law and ship them back where they came from. Fine employers greatly for (as HB said) aiding and abetting criminals.

 

No amnesty.

 

Really we should reduce the number of immigrants allowed. Raise the standards, ie, something like Australia.

 

BTW, anyone know if they shipped Obama's aunt back to kenya yet?

[Zythryn]

I would disagree regarding lowering the number of immigrants allowed. We already allow very few immigrants and businesses are constantly looking for more.

However, I agree completely that we should enforce laws currently on the books and deal very harshly with businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants.

If the jobs for illegals are not there, there will be far fewer of them.

I also think that if we modify unemployment, social security, etc such that people can work and still get partial benifits that we will have fewer people that won't take jobs because they would loose all benefits (even if the job pays less than the benefits provide).

This would give people an incentive to work rather than an incentive not to work.

[Cedars]

I would disagree regarding lowering the number of immigrants allowed. We already allow very few immigrants and businesses are constantly looking for more.

 

Hey Z

 

"There are five ways to immigrate to the US. Most of these categories for immigration have yearly numerical limits, or quotas. The overall yearly limit is about 700,000. Immediate relatives (spouses and minor children of US citizens, and parents of adult US citizens) have no limit."

 

Cornell University ISSO: Visa Status After Graduation

 

I dont know if this site is slanted, but its source seems to be OK. If true, and it seems very possible, this changes the above numbers greatly:

 

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/FS16_USImmigration_051807.pdf

 

So it seems there is an average of 1M per year. I still think it should be half that, maybe less.

[Buffy]

So you support labor unions, right?

How is this related to the OP?

Well, first off, no post is required to be related specifically to the Original Post, it's perfectly legitimate to respond to later posts in the thread.

 

Indeed avoiding the implications of one's remarks is one of the best ways of remaining blind to the implications of their fallacious nature.

 

The implication of the post I was referring to was directly aimed at your claims about incentives of business to not hire illegal aliens:

4. The business community can pay people more to work for them. They can offer scholarships, even get commitments from students to come work for them to pay off their degree. Theres lots of people applying for student loans. As far as student visa's, they come here to go back home and make their countries stronger. Theres been considerable whining from these other countries about our businesses stealing their students via the student visa programs.

...

I think we should crack down greatly on employers who use illegals. I think the fines should be 10x what they are. I think business licenses should be revoked on a second violation. I think priority should be given to re-working the SSN so less fraud can occur.

While I'm glad that you acknowledge that business has no inherent (i.e. Smith's Invisible Hand) incentive to not hire illegals, you do not address the issue that neither does government, when business has the ability to lobby so easily for blocking such enforcement as you envision.

 

Except for nativists like Patrick Buchanan, "cracking down on illegal immigration" continues to be easily voted down by an alliance between both the bleeding-heart liberals *and* the pro-business conservatives. In fact it is the *conservative* economists who push open borders on quite solid theoretical and practical grounds.

 

Anti-immigrant positions are *populist* positions, usually supported by *labor*.

 

The point I'm making is that the only *political* force that will cause what you're asking for is from strong labor unions which create both direct pressure on businesses to raise wages as well as indirectly on the political institutions as a balance to the pro-business lobby.

 

As Craig said, the issue we should be talking about here is what are the practical solutions to the problem, and I am adding "how do we get there."

 

All the problems we face in the United States today can be traced to an unenlightened immigration policy on the part of the American Indian, ;)

Buffy

[Cedars]

Well, first off, no post is required to be related specifically to the Original Post, it's perfectly legitimate to respond to later posts in the thread.

 

Indeed avoiding the implications of one's remarks is one of the best ways of remaining blind to the implications of their fallacious nature.

 

The implication of the post I was referring to was directly aimed at your claims about incentives of business to not hire illegal aliens:

No point in being snotty. Your off-handed question with no apparent reason inspired me to ask how it was related.

 

While I'm glad that you acknowledge that business has no inherent (i.e. Smith's Invisible Hand) incentive to not hire illegals, you do not address the issue that neither does government, when business has the ability to lobby so easily for blocking such enforcement as you envision.

And I am unimpressed by business' whining about how tough it is for them. They have nafta, gatt, china, india, etc filling their needs and yet they scream for more.

 

Except for nativists like Patrick Buchanan, "cracking down on illegal immigration" continues to be easily voted down by an alliance between both the bleeding-heart liberals *and* the pro-business conservatives. In fact it is the *conservative* economists who push open borders on quite solid theoretical and practical grounds.

Which of course was the promise made during the Reagan amnesty. We've been there done that (amnesty). And I am unimpressed by academics who dont live in the communities with the influx of illegals and the burdens put on schools, healthcare, social services, etc.

 

The point I'm making is that the only *political* force that will cause what you're asking for is from strong labor unions which create both direct pressure on businesses to raise wages as well as indirectly on the political institutions as a balance to the pro-business lobby.

We had a strong labor union force. Broken by, wait for it, Business and various elements related to Nafta, GATT, China, india...

 

As Craig said, the issue we should be talking about here is what are the practical solutions to the problem, and I am adding "how do we get there."

And I have said what I think needs to be done. Put americans to work busing them back across the border (both borders cuz theirs a bunch of canuks border jumping too). Wouldnt be any different than mexico, china, canada, australia would treat american illegals.

[Buffy]

And I have said what I think needs to be done. Put americans to work busing them back across the border (both borders cuz theirs a bunch of canuks border jumping too). Wouldnt be any different than mexico, china, canada, australia would treat american illegals.

 

How is that program going to get voted for, funded and implemented?

 

Simple solutions seldom are. It takes a very unusual mind to undertake analysis of the obvious, :rolleyes:

Buffy

[Cedars]

How is that program going to get voted for, funded and implemented?

 

Simple solutions seldom are. It takes a very unusual mind to undertake analysis of the obvious, :lol:

Buffy

 

1. It doesnt need to be voted for, its the law.

 

2. Funding? Well how about using the money we spend on illegals now, such as this 1.5 million?

Florida Hospital Defends Deporting Illegal Immigrant After Spending $1.5 Million on Man's Care - Topix

 

How about the 20 million here?

Illegal Immigrant Dialysis Proves Costly To Hospitals, System - Kaiser Health News

 

How about the general fund and the $10 billion here?

 

Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied (washingtonpost.com)

 

How about the 34 billion here?:

Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Education

 

3. Implemented?

 

Gosh, I dunno, maybe put the 10+ million or so americans looking for work on the job.

[Buffy]

So, why isn't it happening? And what would you do to actually make it happen?

 

Gosh, I dunno.

 

Apparently.

 

The question is, do you want to be part of the solution or do you just want to complain about it?

 

Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain, :)

Buffy

[Cedars]

Well I found out more about Obama's aunt:

 

Zeituni Onyango - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I wonder if shes a criminal for getting Public housing after her order to deport. Isnt that fraud?

 

Found more funding:

 

Illegal immigrant population of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

In 2005, 20 BILLION dollars was shipped out of the US to fund whatever (via illegals sending cash home). Thats 20 billion that could have, and should have been spent by americans, most of it in america.

[Southtown]

I am not against amnesty. My main concern is simply registering the illegal immigrants so they can make the same wages as the rest of us, and also pay taxes into the 'entitlement pool' along with the rest of us. On the down-side, some businesses may not stay afloat. On the up-side, our social security and medicare programs would be a bit better off.

 

So, why isn't it happening?

That's the million dollar question. Lack of an over-site committee I suppose, lawyers-in-pocket, so-to-speak.

 

And what would you do to actually make it happen?

Maybe we could get people to donate to a 'pubic' lobbyist fund (so that we may in-effect 'speak their language?') Sounds more productive than wanting more unenforced legislation, at least to me.

[Buffy]

Maybe we could get people to donate to a 'pubic' lobbyist fund (so that we may in-effect 'speak their language?')....

 

Tee hee! That's what those labor unions that the big business owners wanted--and got--eliminated or at least marginalized, used to do....

 

In a democratic and capitalist society, each group must be able to lobby for its own self-interest. The extent to which one group can marginalize other groups to its own benefit is detrimental to the society as a whole, although that detriment will affect that benefited group last...

 

That's part of American greatness, is discrimination. Yes, sir. Inequality, I think, breeds freedom and gives a man opportunity, :)

Buffy