wendy reakes Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hi everyone.I am a writer and I've just completed a novel called 'The Perfects', a contemporary fantasy based on myths and legends in south-west England. Included within the storyline are many references to the vesica piscis sacred symbol and I was wondering if one of you clever mathematicians here could help me validate a little discovery I made. Bearing in mind this is a fantasy novel, I have used real locations and references, so it's important that my findings are feasible.I came across the mandorla sketch you have on this thread, and I was attracted to it because of a method I used when charting the white horses in Wiltshire. I have included my research reference here, so that you could kindly advise me whether or not my findings make sense mathematically, or that I'm simply barking up the wrong tree. I have taken my central location of Avebury and drawn a line through the white horse locations (in red). Some joined on the other side of the axis, but where they didn't (like Marlborough), I ran the line through. I also penned a vertical line which joins sacred sites like Stonehenge, old Sarum etc, but I drew a horizontal line, which has no bearing on anything except to help form the a, b and c points mentioned on your geometrical sketch. My main point in the book is that the white horse locations fall within a mandorla shape, but I am worried that the proof I am offering in this case, is merely wishful thinking on my part.I would appreciate anyone's opinion.Thank you. white horses.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Hi everyone.I am a writer and I've just completed a novel called 'The Perfects', a contemporary fantasy based on myths and legends in south-west England. Included within the storyline are many references to the vesica piscis sacred symbol and I was wondering if one of you clever mathematicians here could help me validate a little discovery I made. Bearing in mind this is a fantasy novel, I have used real locations and references, so it's important that my findings are feasible.I came across the mandorla sketch you have on this thread, and I was attracted to it because of a method I used when charting the white horses in Wiltshire. I have included my research reference here, so that you could kindly advise me whether or not my findings make sense mathematically, or that I'm simply barking up the wrong tree. I have taken my central location of Avebury and drawn a line through the white horse locations (in red). Some joined on the other side of the axis, but where they didn't (like Marlborough), I ran the line through. I also penned a vertical line which joins sacred sites like Stonehenge, old Sarum etc, but I drew a horizontal line, which has no bearing on anything except to help form the a, b and c points mentioned on your geometrical sketch. My main point in the book is that the white horse locations fall within a mandorla shape, but I am worried that the proof I am offering in this case, is merely wishful thinking on my part.I would appreciate anyone's opinion.Thank you. white horses.pdf hi writingmum. hard to tell about an alignment just from looking at the map, but i have an idea for you to try. you can download my image below, and load it into your image software. then use your "magic lasso" selection tool (or whatever your software might call the tool) and then choose "invert" the selection and copy it to the clipboard. this should give you just the lines and allow the spaces to show whatever is under them. then paste this outline over your map and try to line it up to your white horses as best you can. you may have to scale it up or down and/or rotate it, but whatever it takes for a best fit. your vesica piscis looks a little fat to me, meaning it's not a true vesica piscis. since the work is fiction, a little fudging here & there shouldn't matter i think. also, i usually see the word as "mandala", not "mandorla". good luck & by all means let us know how it works out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendy reakes Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 HI TurtleThank you for your response.It's definitely 'mandorla' ( Italian for almond - shape). I think a mandala is more of a circle (in Hindu sacred geometry) Also i don't think the mandorla is restricted to size. It is the overlapping of two circles, which is what I've drawn in this instance. The mandorla within the vesica piscis defines minimal space, so it can be thin or thick, and is always a 'true' mandorla. Thank you for your reply though. I really appreciate you taking the time.best wishesWM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 HI TurtleThank you for your response.It's definitely 'mandorla' ( Italian for almond - shape). I think a mandala is more of a circle (in Hindu sacred geometry) Also i don't think the mandorla is restricted to size. It is the overlapping of two circles, which is what I've drawn in this instance. The mandorla within the vesica piscis defines minimal space, so it can be thin or thick, and is always a 'true' mandorla. Thank you for your reply though. I really appreciate you taking the time.best wishesWM roger italiano almond. :) as to the exact shape of the vesica piscis, you asked for a mathematical perspective and any overlap other than the one that i have described here (arcs of 120º) does not generate the 'sacred' mathemematical values square root of 2, square root of 3, pi, or phi. ciao. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendy reakes Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Buongiorno Tartaruga (Hello Turtle) I looked that up :-) I don't think I explained myself very well...sorry. It is the alignment of the white horses within the mandorla that i am interested in, but if you are saying that the mandorla has to be an exact alignment with all that stuff you said about Pi etc, then I suppose my findings are wrong. My understanding of the vessica piscis or mandorla isn't mathematical (perhaps that's where I'm wrong). But as a sacred shape they are everywhere and the 'mandorla' isn't always the same width...It is simply the overlapping of two circles depicting minimal space; the place you find yourself when you leave a room and haven't yet entered the other...that sort of thing. Sorry for the confusion. I just wanted to know; if, by plotting the horses and finding myself able to create the original drawing of the mandorla, the mathematical relevance of that would be unique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Buongiorno Tartaruga (Hello Turtle) I looked that up :-) I don't think I explained myself very well...sorry. It is the alignment of the white horses within the mandorla that i am interested in, but if you are saying that the mandorla has to be an exact alignment with all that stuff you said about Pi etc, then I suppose my findings are wrong. My understanding of the vessica piscis or mandorla isn't mathematical (perhaps that's where I'm wrong). But as a sacred shape they are everywhere and the 'mandorla' isn't always the same width...It is simply the overlapping of two circles depicting minimal space; the place you find yourself when you leave a room and haven't yet entered the other...that sort of thing. Sorry for the confusion. I just wanted to know; if, by plotting the horses and finding myself able to create the original drawing of the mandorla, the mathematical relevance of that would be unique. buongiorno writingmum. i copied that. :) so yes, it is an exact mathematical alignment. wikipedia defines vesica piscis as: vesica piscis @wikipediaThe vesica piscis is a shape which is the intersection of two circles with the same radius, intersecting in such a way that the center of each circle lies on the circumference of the other. ... The mathematical ratio of the width of the vesica piscis to its height is the square root of 3, or approximately 1.7320508... (since if straight lines are drawn connecting the centers of the two circles with each other and with the two points where the circles intersect, two equilateral triangles join along an edge). ... they do not mention all the mathematical ratios that i have mentioned, but i never found any sources that do list them which is why i decided to derive them here. use any other overlap of intersecting circles and one looses the notable mathematical ratios. every vesica piscis is almond-shaped, but not every almond-shape is a vesica piscis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qfwfq Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 (edited) Ciao ScrivendoAllaMamma!!!! Teee Heeee I didn't look that up cuzzz me arse is right smack in Padova, not far from Venice...:lol: And just going the opposite way one reaches Cologna Veneta, renowned for mandorlato, a variey of nougat with almonds. Yummmmmm. Anyway, if you want to draw the sacred almond with rule and compass... just...... chuck out the rule cuz ya don't need it! :hihi:The only criterion is that each circle is centred exactly on the circumference of the other one. The result is that, recovering back the dicarded rule and using the two compass pierces and the intersections between the arcs, you can easily draw a pair of exact equilateral triangles which enable to wreak the magic fabled by our Tartaruga here. Arrivederci. Edited January 22, 2011 by Qfwfq extra pic Turtle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendy reakes Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 'ScrivendoAllaMamma' I love that, :) Okay so I'm losing it now...the point that is...I think I'll stick to fiction. :blink: I don't know if any of you guys know that the Washington monument sits within a vesica Piscis. Check out google earth, or you'll probably see a pic somewhere if you look. And the two circles don't go through the center of one another either. Are you saying therefore, that it is not a true VP? I simply can't regard a sacred symbol like the VP as being so rigid in its alignment. For it to be 'not true' if it is not a certain width seems dubious. Especially with regards to the mandorla, as it is represented on churches and within other religious illustrations. You will often see Jesus and Mary depicted within the mandorla and I believe there is a connection to the shape of the Pope's hat. And there is of course the obvious: its usage within the challis well gardens in Glastonbury. (that one I think is aligned as you have mentioned). Anyway, I don't think I'm going to get the answer I'm seeking with regards to the position of the white horses, so I'll go back to my little pad and pen. Thank you for your help. I might be back if i need more mathematical answers. :) ScrivendoAllaMamma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qfwfq Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 I simply can't regard a sacred symbol like the VP as being so rigid in its alignment.Well, it's the exactitude that makes it all the more sacred, that gives it the magicosissimi properties. That's why it is 'not true' if the circles are not centred esattissimamente on each other's circonferenza (edge). Nothing dubious about it taking the right sorcery to make it right, lest any mean dude could do it, or even any amateur sorcerer's apprentice. :P Turtle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 'ScrivendoAllaMamma' I love that, :) Okay so I'm losing it now...the point that is...I think I'll stick to fiction. :blink: I don't know if any of you guys know that the Washington monument sits within a vesica Piscis. Check out google earth, or you'll probably see a pic somewhere if you look. And the two circles don't go through the center of one another either. Are you saying therefore, that it is not a true VP? I simply can't regard a sacred symbol like the VP as being so rigid in its alignment. For it to be 'not true' if it is not a certain width seems dubious. Especially with regards to the mandorla, as it is represented on churches and within other religious illustrations. You will often see Jesus and Mary depicted within the mandorla and I believe there is a connection to the shape of the Pope's hat. And there is of course the obvious: its usage within the challis well gardens in Glastonbury. (that one I think is aligned as you have mentioned). Anyway, I don't think I'm going to get the answer I'm seeking with regards to the position of the white horses, so I'll go back to my little pad and pen. Thank you for your help. I might be back if i need more mathematical answers. :) ScrivendoAllaMamma as to washington dc, you might find this of interest. THE SACRED GEOMETRY OF WASHINGTON, D.C.The Integrity and Power of the Original Design By Nicholas R Mann Published 2006 by Green Magic as Q avowed, it is precisely the exactitude that makes the vesica piscis sacred in the first place. that 'common folk' don't know the secrets is something of the inside joke that 'elitists' make by using it in art & architecture throughout history, and charlatans take advantage of yet to this day. much of the point of this thread is to dispel the misunderstandings and make the secrets available to all. let those who have eyes see & those that have ears hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendy reakes Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Whose secret? Am I a charlatan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Whose secret? Am I a charlatan? :lol: well, back in the day they were the secrets of the few people who could read & do math; the scribes, the nobility, the religious leaders, & the secret societies like the masons. nowdays it's the secrets of the few people who do read & do the math. nothing i have layed out here is above high school geometry. i don't know if you're a charlatan or not. i'm taking you at your word that you are a fiction author. rather than take this all as a mortal blow, why not work it into the plot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendy reakes Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 I haven't taken it as a mortal blow...you just haven't answered my initial question. Okay, I'm not a mathematician, but I know about life. And you guys are not letting me in.I'm done here. Thanks for the hospitality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 I haven't taken it as a mortal blow...you just haven't answered my initial question. Okay, I'm not a mathematician, but I know about life. And you guys are not letting me in.I'm done here. Thanks for the hospitality. :omg: let's see here... your initial question and my keep-out non-answer. Hi everyone.I am a writer and I've just completed a novel called 'The Perfects', a contemporary fantasy based on myths and legends in south-west England. Included within the storyline are many references to the vesica piscis sacred symbol and I was wondering if one of you clever mathematicians here could help me validate a little discovery I made. Bearing in mind this is a fantasy novel, I have used real locations and references, so it's important that my findings are feasible.I came across the mandorla sketch you have on this thread, and I was attracted to it because of a method I used when charting the white horses in Wiltshire. I have included my research reference here, so that you could kindly advise me whether or not my findings make sense mathematically, or that I'm simply barking up the wrong tree. hi writingmum. hard to tell about an alignment just from looking at the map, but i have an idea for you to try. you can download my image below, and load it into your image software. then use your "magic lasso" selection tool (or whatever your software might call the tool) and then choose "invert" the selection and copy it to the clipboard. this should give you just the lines and allow the spaces to show whatever is under them. then paste this outline over your map and try to line it up to your white horses as best you can. you may have to scale it up or down and/or rotate it, but whatever it takes for a best fit. your vesica piscis looks a little fat to me, meaning it's not a true vesica piscis. ... have you tried overlaying a real vesica piscis on your map as i suggested? i have not myself, so i do not rule out the possibility of a real vesica piscis aligning with your map points, nor have i in my responses ruled it out. i'm curious too about what other sources you have accessed on this geometry and what they have had to say about the tree you are barking up. you're welcome for the hospitality. :dog: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendy reakes Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 That's real nice of you. Kinda wishing I'd never asked. You can stop talking to me now. Subject closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 so talking to everyone except mr. mum, i thought i'd re-visit the Opening Post of this thread. it's a subject in basic geometry that is always open for explication. not that the term 'oculus rota' for the vesica piscis is my own invention which i wrote under poetic license. ;) ___I mentioned this shape & attachment in another thread, but it deserves its own for a proper exploration. I will just start by attaching my exposition, & after you look it over maybe Google Vesica Piscis or check in a dictionary. :Alien: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 That's real nice of you. Kinda wishing I'd never asked. You can stop talking to me now. Subject closed. Hmm...so writingmum, you are researching a book and want to know more about the vesica piscis, yet you dismiss knowledgeable people on the subject because...why exactly? It just seems strange to me. Did you feel offended? If so, by what exactly? T, Cool info on DC and the map coordinates...it's new to me and makes for interesting reading and possible experiments using Google Maps. Turtle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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