Justification for war in Afghanistan

[BrianG]

I tend to listen to the words coming out of their mouths:

...More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and specific demands: Close terrorist training camps; hand over leaders of the al Qaeda network; and return all foreign nationals, including American citizens, unjustly detained in your country. None of these demands were met. And now the Taliban will pay a price. By destroying camps and disrupting communications, we will make it more difficult for the terror network to train new recruits and coordinate their evil plans...

President Bush Speech Launching Attack on Afghanistan and the Taliban - President Bush Speech Launching Operation Enduring Freedom

[Theory5]

...More than two weeks ago, I gave Taliban leaders a series of clear and specific demands: Close terrorist training camps; hand over leaders of the al Qaeda network; and return all foreign nationals, including American citizens, unjustly detained in your country. None of these demands were met. And now the Taliban will pay a price. By destroying camps and disrupting communications, we will make it more difficult for the terror network to train new recruits and coordinate their evil plans...

I tend to listen to the words coming out of their mouths: President Bush Speech Launching Attack on Afghanistan and the Taliban - President Bush Speech Launching Operation Enduring Freedom

 

Interesting. But to me it seems a little hypocritial. We have CIA prisions all over which may or may not illegally contain citizens of other countries, without any trials or release dates. WE have trained many, including south american forces, in the "arts" of tourture and murder. We also train new recruits, as well as create plans for them, with or without the publics knowledge.

Word to the wise: I try to refrain from quoting bush except when showing just how incompetent he is. I hardly consider him to be a relyable source for anything.

[BrianG]

If you want to know why Osama Bin Laden started the war, please see:

 

Bin Laden's 1996 fatwa is entitled "Declaration of War against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places". This document is sometimes called the Ladenese epistle, a term derived from bin Laden's surname. It is a long piece, and complains of American activities in numerous countries. It was written on an Apple computer, and then faxed to supporters across the world.

 

 

FatawÄ of Osama bin Laden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Theory5]

If you want to know why Osama Bin Laden started the war, please see:

 

 

 

 

Fataw� of Osama bin Laden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

whoa, whoa, why he started the war? It looks like we might have provoked him a bit...

 

The latest and the greatest of these aggressions, incurred by the Muslims since the death of the Prophet (ALLAH'S BLESSING AND SALUTATIONS ON HIM) is the occupation of the land of the two Holy Places -the foundation of the house of Islam, the place of the revelation, the source of the message and the place of the noble Ka'ba, the Qiblah of all Muslims- by the armies of the American Crusaders and their allies. (We bemoan this and can only say: "No power and power acquiring except through Allah").

 

Under the present circumstances, and under the banner of the blessed awakening which is sweeping the world in general and the Islamic world in particular, I meet with you today. And after a long absence, imposed on the scholars (Ulama) and callers (Da'ees) of Islam by the iniquitous crusaders movement under the leadership of the USA; who fears that they, the scholars and callers of Islam, will instigate the Ummah of Islam against its' enemies as their ancestor scholars-may Allah be pleased with them- like Ibn Taymiyyah and Al'iz Ibn Abdes-Salaam did. And therefore the Zionist-Crusader alliance resorted to killing and arresting the truthful Ulama and the working Da'ees (We are not praising or sanctifying them; Allah sanctify whom He pleased). They killed the Mujahid Sheikh Abdullah Azzaam, and they arrested the Mujahid Sheikh Ahmad Yaseen and the Mujahid Sheikh Omar Abdur Rahman (in America).

I am having trouble figuring out where and when we occupied the "two holy places" I assume it was during the gulf war?

 

Who are these people that we supposedly arrested? He seems to belive these are scolars.

It seems we provoked him by occupying parts of the middle east.

That entire thing seems like a valid declaration of war(shame our government doesn't take this stuff seriously when it happens), except for the fact that he is not running any country. We invaded their land, and they take that as an agressive and offensive act. It seems to me that he is not a terrorist but a rebel fighting for his country. The only reason we use the label terrorist is because it carries the same weight as the word communist did back in the 1950's.

If russia(or canada or any other country) came into the US unauthorized and unannounced for any reason, we would consider that an act of war right? Even if they managed to take control of our government the people would rebel RIGHT? I am actually feeling some sympathy for this guy, and his people.

 

EDIT: I cannot find much when I google many of the references in the fatwa. It seems like there is no history on the web about this stuff...

[alexander]

You have to wonder about the intelligence community that decided to trade Osama and his close men in the first place, sometime "enemy of an enemy is my friend" strategy fires back a little...

By destroying camps and disrupting communications, we will make it more difficult for the terror network to train new recruits and coordinate their evil plans...

Hardly. If he simply checked the facts, which i suggest you look over yourself, al Qaeda is amongst the largest terrorist networks in the world and operates out of more then 70 countries having camps in more then a few of them... Bomb one camp in Afghanistan, they will open two in another country...

I tend to listen to the words coming out of their mouths

me to, i can't help but to appreciate the carefully written propaganda with constant psychological cues to, without saying something, make people believe something was said...

[REASON]

I am having trouble figuring out where and when we occupied the "two holy places" I assume it was during the gulf war?

 

He was referring to our use of what he considers "holy land" in Saudi Arabia as a base of operations to launch strikes against a Muslim nation during the Gulf War.

 

And more importantly, the other is our blatent one sided support for Israel in their oppression of the Palestinians. Of course, this is his perspective of what has occurred in Palestine over the last 50 years. We've had it presented to us differently.

 

If anyone was really willing to see this whole situation for what it is, it would be that there are many in the Muslim world that see us as another in a long history of invaders and conquerers, and their attacks on our interests are related to that perception. As we continue to invade and conquer, even as we refer to it as liberation, we reinforce that notion and there are those that will continue to resist.

 

I believe it is time for a more diplomatic approach because they will never succumb to the will of our military. Rather, it will only fuel their rage.

[BrianG]

Right, I fought in the United States Army, VII Corp, 1st Division, 3d Brigade, 1-1 Cavalry to save one Muslim nation, Kuwait, from another Muslim nation, Iraq. We had to protect Saudi Arabia at the start, then we kicked them out of Kuwait back into Iraq. But that's another story. The two holy places are Mecca and Al Medina.

[REASON]

Right, I fought in the United States Army, VII Corp, 1st Division, 3d Brigade, 1-1 Cavalry to save one Muslim nation, Kuwait, from another Muslim nation, Iraq. We had to protect Saudi Arabia at the start, then we kicked them out of Kuwait back into Iraq. But that's another story.

 

Really, it's part of the same story.

 

Now maybe you would refresh my memory. Why did we see it as in our interest to "save Kuwait?"

[BrianG]

Babies thrown out of incubators at the hospital, gold stolen from the banks, I don't know.

 

Just right versus wrong.

[REASON]

Babies thrown out of incubators at the hospital, gold stolen from the banks, I don't know.

 

Just right versus wrong.

 

Well that's nothing compared to what's been going on in Darfur and Rwanda. Yet we haven't intervened with our military might there.

 

What do you think the difference is?

[BrianG]

An external invasion instead of civil disorder. That's my answer, can you name another invasion America didn't answer?

[Theory5]

An external invasion instead of civil disorder. That's my answer, can you name another invasion America didn't answer?

 

What? Which is the external invasion and which is the civil disorder? And neither one is civil disorder, both are wars, and frankly, Rwanda and Darfur are genocide's, if you don't think thats enough to step in and stop a whole people from dieing, well... :coffee_n_pc:

 

And I don't understand why we armed the taliban, and then when they attack us we are surprised, so we start fighting against them when they have our weapons and ammo!

We should have learned our lesson with Fidel Castro.

[alexander]

Brian there are tons of invasions and conflicts that US does not answer all around the world...

 

Babies thrown out of incubators at the hospital, gold stolen from the banks, I don't know.

those are motivators for the soldiers, not reasons why US intervened...

 

Note, i do have close friends that have purple hearts from both the first gulf, and the second, who have spent 3 or more tours in the desert, don't take anything to offense, IMHO the soldiers on the ground were the only government-run entity that did, and still do their jobs in both campaigns. Everyone else failed, diplomats, intelligence, command. I mean sure military is not without it's issues, but of all, they just deal with the ****, everyone else has no frigging clue what is going on...

[Moontanman]

All this **** is just using ideology to justify killing people, I think anyone who wants to kill or die on the name of any God should receive a bullet to the back of the head. Both sides are guilty? When they hell did it become simple enough to have two sides? Everyone wants to stir **** but they all act surprised when it stinks! There is no way to satisfy anyone who advocates these wars, any attempt to satisfy the extremists screws every one else and satisfying the regular people screws the extremists. hell first of all someone who is truly neutral would have to decide which side is which just to see a realistic over view of what is going on. Of course we all know our god is the only true god, and we are always right.... no wait.... who are we and who is the one true god? I often think that human beings do not deserve the species name of "Homo sapiens" It should be "Homo thinklikemeordie"

[maikeru]

All this **** is just using ideology to justify killing people, I think anyone who wants to kill or die on the name of any God should receive a bullet to the back of the head. Both sides are guilty? When they hell did it become simple enough to have two sides? Everyone wants to stir **** but they all act surprised when it stinks! There is no way to satisfy anyone who advocates these wars, any attempt to satisfy the extremists screws every one else and satisfying the regular people screws the extremists. hell first of all someone who is truly neutral would have to decide which side is which just to see a realistic over view of what is going on. Of course we all know our god is the only true god, and we are always right.... no wait.... who are we and who is the one true god? I often think that human beings do not deserve the species name of "Homo sapiens" It should be "Homo thinklikemeordie"

 

Personally I like Homo stupidicus. It's what I use to kid with in discussions. (Honestly, though, I think the human race has incredible potential and ought to and needs to use it.) :naughty:

[BrianG]

Brian there are tons of invasions and conflicts that US does not answer all around the world...

 

Can you name one invasion the U.S. doesn't answer?

[REASON]

Can you name one invasion the U.S. doesn't answer?

 

Rwandan Genocide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

The Rwandan Genocide was the 1994 mass killing of hundreds of thousands of Rwanda's Tutsis and Hutu political moderates by the Hutu dominated government under the Hutu Power ideology. Over the course of approximately 100 days, from the assassination of Juvénal Habyarimana on 6 April through mid-July, at least 500,000 people were killed.[1] Estimates of the death toll have ranged between 500,000 and 1,000,000,[2] or as much as 20% of the total population of the country.

 

In 1990 the Rwandan Patriotic Front (RPF), a rebel group, composed mostly of Tutsi refugees, invaded northern Rwanda from Uganda. The Rwandan Civil War, fought between the Hutu regime, with support from Francophone nations of Africa and France itself,[3][4] and the RPF, with support from Uganda, vastly increased the ethnic tensions in the country and led to the rise of Hutu Power, an ideology that asserted that the Tutsi intended to enslave Hutus and thus must be resisted at all costs.

 

A National Security Archive report points out five ways in which decisions made by the U.S. government contributed to the slow U.S. and worldwide response and to the continuation of the genocide:

 

1. Contrary to later public statements, the U.S. lobbied the U.N. for a total withdrawal of U.N. (UNAMIR) forces in Rwanda in April 1994;
   
2. Secretary of State Warren Christopher did not authorize officials to use the term "genocide" until May 21, and even then, U.S. officials waited another three weeks before using the term in public;
   
3. Bureaucratic infighting slowed the U.S. response to the genocide in general;
   
4. The U.S. refused to jam extremist radio broadcasts inciting the killing, citing costs and concern with international law;
   
5. U.S. officials knew exactly who was leading the genocide, and actually spoke with those leaders to urge an end to the violence but did not follow up with concrete action.
   

 

We weren't in any big hurry to use our military to get this problem under control for the sake of stopping a genocide. Our interests in the Middle East and Southwest Asia in general stretch far beyond assisting the oppressed people of Afghanistan or Iraq. But I understand that it's easier for us to believe that our intentions are purely noble.