Michaelangelica Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Indeed.The fact remains that religion has accomplished more for the good of man than the determinant of man and society that was the threads question and that's my answer. You can live in your fantasy world where the big bad wolf of religion lives but its just that...fantasy.Isn't that what we are debating? What about some poof for your belief?Famous atheistsAtheism: Famous Atheistshttp://www.michaelnugent.com/resources/famous-atheists/ We have forgotten agnostics, secular, Jedi and spaghetti -man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 This is wholly insufficient. How have you supported your initial claim that "Atheists have done very little compared to religious groups for the good of mankind"? Your quote about Matthew Murray does not support your argument either way. It is in fact irrelevant, or at best tangential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOfAllRevs Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Isn't that what we are debating? What about some poof for your belief?Famous atheistsAtheism: Famous Atheists We have forgotten agnostics, secular, Jedi and spaghetti -man. Yes debate away. I am with you, I simply said that I was talking about groups of atheists like the American atheists. Of course there are thousands of individual Christians that are towering intellectuals like Newton. Again as I said at the beginning of this debate I think atheists are as moral and good as religious folk. ; }> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOfAllRevs Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 This is wholly insufficient. How have you supported your initial claim that "Atheists have done very little compared to religious groups for the good of mankind"? Your quote about Matthew Murray does not support your argument either way. It is in fact irrelevant, or at best tangential. In several of my posts I indicated that there were no atheists accomplishments that compared with the buildings etc that were religiously inspired. How does one 'prove' that? I did it by listing the religious accomplishments, I know of no atheist inspired counterparts do you? ; {> Again how can anyone prove that there are no atheist accomplishments to compare with the list of religious gifts to society that I have listed redundantly in my past replies? Google atheist accomplishments and you get nothing of merit. So if you can think of a way to prove it to a 100% accuracy please let me know. I made a claim based on the best available evidence and stand by it. In court this would be called circumstantial evidence. Trust me If I called everyone out to provide evidence for claims they have made this debate would grind to a halt due to an overload of font. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelangelica Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 I have already supported my claims in my posts. If you think I am incorrect well I am waiting.I've just looked back at the last few pages and I don't see you supporting anything.One example of a mass murderer killing Christians?Give me a break!9/11 was about?But of course, i don't expect any support or proof, we share different assumptions and therefore different BELIEFS. Many religious don't want to support their bizarre beliefs They have faith & The Bible/Koran/Tora. Good luck to them.You can't change beliefs with science and rarely with argument, as we are working on two different set of assumptions. I just wish everyone would just be more tolerant and accepting of difference-- like Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelangelica Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Newton. ; }>Newton was a fruit-cake who believed in many many bizzare things. Gravity was his best, brief moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOfAllRevs Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 I've just looked back at the last few pages and I don't see you supporting anything.One example of a mass murderer killing Christians?Give me a break!9/11 was about?But of course, i don't expect any support or proof, we share different assumptions and therefore different BELIEFS. Many religious don't want to support for their bizarre beliefs They have faith & The Bible/Koran/Tora. Good luck to them.You can't change beliefs with science and rarely with argument, as we are working on two different set of assumptions. I just wish everyone would just be more tolerant and accepting of difference-- like Jesus. No the question is did religion has contribute (much much much) more than atheist groups. I said (many times) the magnificent buildings to name a few the ziggernaught at Ur the pyramids the Sistine Chapel etc etc. I mentioned redundantly the religious inspired art and literature. I mentioned many times that I felt that religion provided the social glue and provided the evidences and why I thought that was true. I mentioned MANY (caps for emphasis only) times that secular war killed more in one action than all the religious wars etc combined. If any one that claims that I do not present evidence would take the time to read my replies instead of accusing me of this and that we may be able to get on with the debate. So far its been a redundancy of facts as I have repeated the above, well many times. . I just wish everyone would just be more tolerant and accepting of difference-- like Jesus. I am very tolerant in the face of insulting remarks like calling the region and God I worship demeaning names, and comparing the christian religion with the FSM and fairytales and myth. Oh, that isn't demeaning? If the situation were reversed I am sure (atheists etc) would take offense in most cases. Nevertheless, thanks for the replies... ; {> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOfAllRevs Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Newton was a fruit-cake who believed in many many bizzare things. Gravity was his best, brief moment Didn't you forget something? Ie 'father of calculus'. Well maybe Leibniz should get some credit but you are really short changing Newton by calling him a fruit cake, and singling out 'Gravity' as his best moment, and I would argue that his moment was not brief.... He had a long list of brilliant accomplishments that spanned his life. The Scientists: Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727).Newton's accomplishments in life were many. Generally, he devoted much of his energy towards alchemy, theology, and history. In 1668, Newton built the first ...http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/.../Newton.htm ; {> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Let me try and break it down for you. No the question is did religion has contribute (much much much) more than atheist groups. No, the question is "Is Religion harmful to society?" I said (many times) the magnificent buildings to name a few the ziggernaught at Ur the pyramids the Sistine Chapel etc etc. I mentioned redundantly the religious inspired art and literature. I mentioned many times that I felt that religion provided the social glue and provided the evidences and why I thought that was true. I mentioned MANY (caps for emphasis only) times that secular war killed more in one action than all the religious wars etc combined. Mentioning things does not count as factual evidence. If you *feel* that art is one of the bastions of religion, then prove it! No one here is going to just take your word for it. We're a bit different than most forums. We require you to support your claims. If any one that claims that I do not present evidence would take the time to read my replies instead of accusing me of this and that we may be able to get on with the debate. So far its been a redundancy of facts as I have repeated the above, well many times.I've read every last letter. Repeating yourself does nothing but add more letters. You keep repeating the same claims over and over and expect everyone else to accept them as truths. Not gonna happen. Show us the proof rather than masquerade amongst illogical sequiters such as "because Religious art is cool, religion is cool". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOfAllRevs Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 (EXCERPT) I've just looked back at the last few pages and I don't see you supporting anything.One example of a mass murderer killing Christians?Give me a break! one of many Church Woman Slays Mass Murderer | The Voice Christian magazineDec 11, 2007 ... Advancing Christian Life and Culture. ... Tags: colorado springs, jean assam, larry pratt, mass murderer, new life church, ...http://www.thevoicemagazine.com/blog/breaking-news/church-woman-slays-mass-murderer/ - number two of very many world wide mass killings..Subsequent Arson, Rape and Mass Murder of India's Christians ...Oct 23, 2008 ... Subsequent Arson, Rape and Mass Murder of India's Christians ... so be it…the Hindu never went around the world for suzerainty or to ...http://www.stanleyscism.com/2008/10/23/subsequent-arson-rape-and-mass-murder-of-indias-christians/ - Christians are murdered almost everyday if not everyday in the world. I don't know where you get your news but this is a well known fact, maybe I am exposed to this more because I write a lot and am a professional speaker on religion etc here is a link. European Syriac Union - NewsTwo members of the Syriac-Chaldean-Assyrian people murdered in Mousul-Iraq ... everyday some Syriac-Chaldean-Assyrian Christians are being kidnapped and murdered. The fear and panic has become a part of their daily life. ...http://www.esu.cc/News/Two%20Christians%20murdered%20in%20Iraq.html ; {> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOfAllRevs Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Let me try and break it down for you. No, the question is "Is Religion harmful to society?" Mentioning things does not count as factual evidence. If you *feel* that art is one of the bastions of religion, then prove it! No one here is going to just take your word for it. We're a bit different than most forums. We require you to support your claims. I've read every last letter. Repeating yourself does nothing but add more letters. You keep repeating the same claims over and over and expect everyone else to accept them as truths. Not gonna happen. Show us the proof rather than masquerade amongst illogical sequiters such as "because Religious art is cool, religion is cool". As I said I made objective statements and backed them up with common history. And at least one member agreed with my statements so I did not revisit them or feel the need to post links. Again the reason I repeat it is because you don't get it. one; I claimed only that art enriched society do you deny that? two; I claimed that religion helped society by giving us the pyramids (built for the afterlife of the God king.... I hope I don't have to provide proof for common history) the religious cathedrals. Do you deny that these things enrich society? three; I claimed and we debated that religion provided social glue to build the first civilizations. This is an objective claim and the proof is circumstantial, such as the fertility symbols found with the Neolithic cultures etc. four; I claimed that Christianity killed far less than secular concerns. do you deny that? So considering all the above I made the claim that no Christianity is not bad for society, and actually enriches society. That is as simple as I can make it. Its a combination of hard evidence (commonly known history such as the pyramids were religious structures built for the god kings afterlife etc) circumstantial evidence and common sense. As I said (many many times) I have already made my case, this last post is a summery of those efforts. ; {> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOfAllRevs Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 Newton was a fruit-cake who believed in many many bizzare things. Gravity was his best, brief moment Please don't make claims without proof. That is what I was told so I am requesting you to show proof of this claim, thanks in advance. ; }> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pamela Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 well religion is certainly harmful to this microsociety here at hypography;)I believe it important to remember that mankind is the one who kills. Period. Whether that is motivated by religious views or not .It is the group think that drives the masses to kill each other under the title of religion. Teaching and rearing children within the realm of hatred from someones interpretation of a religious book only futher perpetuates the cycle of destruction of a peaceful coexistance among humankind. Religion is not some evil personified entity that enshrouds the world with darkness, it is a concept. It is what an individual and a collective group does with that concept is the problem.It all boils down to ego and whether that is displayed in art or the taking of property in war,or the destruction of life, it is the self, that promotes the action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeztar Posted July 25, 2009 Report Share Posted July 25, 2009 As I said I made objective statements and backed them up with common history. I noticed that, yes. Certain ideas do not require links to back them up while other claims do require links. And at least one member agreed with my statements so I did not revisit them or feel the need to post links. If you are asked to back up your claims, you must back up your claims. It doesn't matter how many members agree with your claims. Again the reason I repeat it is because you don't get it.Ok. Then can you repeat it again? Perhaps I'll get it the next time. B) one; I claimed only that art enriched society do you deny that? I would be an idiot to deny that.two; I claimed that religion helped society by giving us the pyramids (built for the afterlife of the God king.... I hope I don't have to provide proof for common history) the religious cathedrals. Do you deny that these things enrich society? I do not deny this either and I do think it is a strong argument for your case, though I think you could make it stronger. three; I claimed and we debated that religion provided social glue to build the first civilizations. This is an objective claim and the proof is circumstantial, such as the fertility symbols found with the Neolithic cultures etc. Fair enough. four; I claimed that Christianity killed far less than secular concerns. do you deny that? Yes, I deny this claim. In order to make such a specious claim, you must provide support for it. The big question is "How do I provide support for this?". I would suggest making a two-column tally. One column would be Christianity, and the other would be Secular. You could list out every mass killing under the appropriate categories and weigh them. THAT would be some great evidence simply for the fact that you took a scientific approach. Your list might later be debated as "biased" or "incomplete", but at least you have an argument with a leg to stand on. :doh: So considering all the above I made the claim that no Christianity is not bad for society, and actually enriches society. You have to take the bad with the good. If I concede the argument that Christianity has done good things for society, would you also concede that it has done bad things for society? If not, I don't see much hope for further discussion and enlightenment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevOfAllRevs Posted July 26, 2009 Report Share Posted July 26, 2009 well religion is certainly harmful to this microsociety here at hypography;)I believe it important to remember that mankind is the one who kills. Period. Whether that is motivated by religious views or not .It is the group think that drives the masses to kill each other under the title of religion. Teaching and rearing children within the realm of hatred from someones interpretation of a religious book only futher perpetuates the cycle of destruction of a peaceful coexistance among humankind. Religion is not some evil personified entity that enshrouds the world with darkness, it is a concept. It is what an individual and a collective group does with that concept is the problem.It all boils down to ego and whether that is displayed in art or the taking of property in war,or the destruction of life, it is the self, that promotes the action. I would only agree that religion defined and understood her at Hypgraphy would be considered harmful to society. The reason for that is obvious. However I think that in a unbiased setting a different conclusion would be reached for the reasons I outlined in my replies. The secular forces are far more destructive than region could envision on its best inquisitional day. Most wars of history and in modern times are fought for secular reasons one war say WW2 would exceed far and above all the religious. Casualties of War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia wars of history. ; {> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boerseun Posted July 26, 2009 Report Share Posted July 26, 2009 Religion demands the abandonment of rational thought. I don't see how this can be beneficial to society in any way, shape or form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pamela Posted July 26, 2009 Report Share Posted July 26, 2009 The secular forces are far more destructive than region could envision on its best inquisitional day. Most wars of history and in modern times are fought for secular reasons one war say WW2 would exceed far and above all the religiousThe force is mankind regardless of religion or non . Hatred, loathing and greed is the core of what fuels war.Religion demands the abandonment of rational thoughtnot religion, but faith or belief in said religion, is where the abandonment occurs. Aptly put in one religious text " faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence unseen"which is not only irrational but illogical as well Faith or belief in anything can drive you and cause change that can be beneficial. For example, Had i accepted the confining label of educably mentally disabled for my son, believed it to be true, he would remain at that level by lack of being taught as there would be no reason to. However, my belief is as such, that the brain is an amazing thing and not limited to that which we have already learned. Therefore, books, experiences, field trips, discussions and yes even Hypography, have been utilized in the development of my child. Now i ask you, would a child labeled as such, ask me at 4am if cavemen were real, get a brief but groggy answer from me, and head out the next day to dig in my yard looking for ancient tools???My belief in the brain, although not fully known,was the impetus for change, that has proven beneficial to my son. Therefore, it is indeed important to separate, those things we do as humans from the ideologies that many subscribe to.It is not religion that brings about those things that are beneficial or beautiful to mankind, but mankind itself that creates and builds those things beneficial or detrimental to us Moontanman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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