Is religion harmful to society?

[InfiniteNow]

Just because you close your eyes and plug your ears to the harms of religion and belief in the absence of evidence does not mean that those harms are non-extant.

[pamela]

The question is which line of division. Would you argue against division between the truth seekers and the fantasy pushers? The interpretation remains elusive, at least to me.

sometimes southtown, the line drawn between the truthseekers and the fantasy pushers are often blurred, so to argue against that division seems rather pointless to me. However, my main concern is the division between people, whether religious or non. When a particular group attempts to force its ideologies on another, then there is strife. The biblical reference understood by most but not all denominations, is referring to leaving your family behind so to speak, to follow Christ.So if they disagree with your chosen faith, then separate yourself from them.I have seen families torn apart over such a thing. Would you consider this a godly thing? or something that would exhibit the love of Christ as referenced so many times in the new Testament? certainly not in my opinion.So for the christian believer you have but two choices here(1) either convert them to your way of thinking or (2) disown them.

As you can see the extreme proselytizing is evident even on a global scale, but what about those who have been ostracized from their families and friends.These are the brokenhearted divided from those they love all in the name of religion and a lofty ego bereft of love

[Southtown]

Just because you close your eyes and plug your ears to the harms of religion and belief in the absence of evidence does not mean that those harms are non-extant.

Is that what I stated?

 

sometimes southtown, the line drawn between the truthseekers and the fantasy pushers are often blurred, so to argue against that division seems rather pointless to me. However, my main concern is the division between people, whether religious or non. When a particular group attempts to force its ideologies on another, then there is strife.

Why this thread then?

 

The biblical reference understood by most but not all denominations, is referring to leaving your family behind so to speak, to follow Christ.So if they disagree with your chosen faith, then separate yourself from them.I have seen families torn apart over such a thing. Would you consider this a godly thing? or something that would exhibit the love of Christ as referenced so many times in the new Testament? certainly not in my opinion.So for the christian believer you have but two choices here(1) either convert them to your way of thinking or (2) disown them.

As you can see the extreme proselytizing is evident even on a global scale, but what about those who have been ostracized from their families and friends.These are the brokenhearted divided from those they love all in the name of religion and a lofty ego bereft of love

If someone considers it morally acceptable to rape his children, but the offspring disagrees, then yes, I find separation an ideal solution. Again I assert, the question is which line of division.

[pamela]

Why this thread then?

The purpose of this thread is to take an objective look at how religion has been harmful to society. It is not about bashing religion.Certain aspects of religion have been beneficial to mankind through out time, but there has been death and destruction as a direct result as well.

 

If someone considers it morally acceptable to rape his children, but the offspring disagrees, then yes, I find separation an ideal solution.

could'nt agree with you more:)

Again I assert, the question is which line of division

.

The dividing line per the biblical reference suggests the separation should occur between believer and non. Here is another reference that is in support of the separation

 

Luke 9 :4-6

Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere.

[InfiniteNow]

Let There Be Light Crude | Mother Jones

When James Cojanis heard the first rumblings of Armageddon, he was sitting in his San Jose home with the radio tuned to a popular Christian show called The Prophecy Club. Featured that day was a charismatic Texas oilman named Harold "Hayseed" Stephens. Speaking in the rousing cadence of a Southern preacher, he told listeners that "the greatest oil field on Earth is under the southwest corner of the Dead Sea"--and that his company, Ness Energy International, was about to tap into it. In doing so, he said, it would drain the oil fields of the Persian Gulf, prompt Arab countries to attack Israel, and at last touch off the great battle that would usher in the end of days.

 

As soon as the show was over, Cojanis got on the phone to find out how to invest in the venture. Days later the 70-year-old retiree received a form letter addressed, "Dear End Time Servant." It claimed that the oil reserves at Ness' planned drilling site ranged "from one billion to 40 billion barrels...putting this prospect in a class of the super giant oil fields of the world." Without a second thought, Cojanis bought $120,000 worth of stock in Ness. "Faith is a gift God puts in your heart," he explained when I visited him in October at his cluttered town house, piled with crumpled boxes of prophecy-themed newsletters and cassette tapes of old Christian radio shows. "And I didn't have any doubt that Ness was a plan of God. He raised up Hayseed Stephens to find Israel's oil."

 

Eight years later, Ness has yet to sink so much as an initial borehole for a Dead Sea well. In fact, for most of its existence it has never even held exploration rights in Israel. Its U.S. headquarters, a barnlike storefront topped with an open Bible sprouting an oil well, was shuttered in 2006. Since then, its stock price has fallen from a high of nearly $5 to a mere 3 cents; Cojanis' $120,000 investment is now worth $3,000. Not that he's worried. "I'm glad the stock price is in the tank," he says. "When they hit oil and the stock goes sky-high, that means Armageddon is around the corner." At that point, he plans to use his gains to spread the word that the end times are here, preparing as many souls for heaven as possible.

 

 

Via PZ

It's always a shock to see these cheerful people who love, love, love the idea of Armageddon, and want nothing more than for it to come as soon as possible. This isn't a hard concept to grasp: if your ideal expectation for the near-future is a world-wide catastrophe that has hundreds of millions of people dying in nuclear fireballs, there's something wrong with you.

QFT.

[InfiniteNow]

Here's a much more tangible danger caused by religion... or, more specifically, by the mandate to attend church services. A bit humorous, too:

 

 

Jesus, Take the Wheel!

 

 

[Southtown]

The purpose of this thread is to take an objective look at how religion has been harmful to society. It is not about bashing religion.Certain aspects of religion have been beneficial to mankind through out time, but there has been death and destruction as a direct result as well.

Yes, but I'm saying that there may be more to it than just religion, since some believers do good while others do bad.

 

The dividing line per the biblical reference suggests the separation should occur between believer and non.

Defining a believer is a tricky thing, you see. (Mt.7:21)

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2008/01/let-there-be-light-crude

People can be conned without being religious. Religious people may be more susceptible to deception by the "wolves in sheep's clothing" if they allow themselves to stray from the word. (Mt.5) It's a big book though. I understand why some don't recall the right scriptures at the drop of a hat.

 

But still, people don't have to be religious in order to be conned into straying from common sense. But there does have to be a self-motivated individual, intentionally or otherwise, to pull people in the wrong direction. I think cons manipulate people by either misconstruing information or twisting reason, intentionally or otherwise.

 

But we can't think of religion as the only things that can be twisted. That's the meaning of the word "wicked" by the way: "crooked," as in "not straight." Just as "right" in righteous means "straight" or blameless.

 

Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine, August, 2005, Issue #018

[pamela]

Yes, but I'm saying that there may be more to it than just religion, since some believers do good while others do bad

of course, it is the individual who does good or bad whether that be guided by religion or not.We all have a set of moral codes that we either adhere to or not, aside from a religious derivation

Defining a believer is a tricky thing, you see. (Mt.7:21)

know that well southtown, i live in the buckle of the bible belt where there are off shoots of off shoots of denominations;)

and, the regular run of the mill christian joe.

People can be conned without being religious. Religious people may be more susceptible to deception by the "wolves in sheep's clothing" if they allow themselves to stray from the word. (Mt.5) It's a big book though. I understand why some don't recall the right scriptures at the drop of a hat.

sure anyone can be conned, if they do not possess knowledge or are unaware of the guiles of the unscrupulous types

 

But still, people don't have to be religious in order to be conned into straying from common sense. But there does have to be a self-motivated individual, intentionally or otherwise, to pull people in the wrong direction. I think cons manipulate people by either misconstruing information or twisting reason, intentionally or otherwise

agreed

But we can't think of religion as the only things that can be twisted. That's the meaning of the word "wicked" by the way: "crooked," as in "not straight." Just as "right" in righteous means "straight" or blameless.

many many things can indeed be twisted that is true. You should be aware though, that people who tout themselves as righteous are to be blamed for an inflated ego;)

[InfiniteNow]

People can be conned without being religious. Religious people may be more susceptible to deception by the "wolves in sheep's clothing" if they allow themselves to stray from the word.

 

And yet... being conned is not the issue to which I was calling attention. The issue was the fact that all of these believers "love, love, love the idea of Armageddon, and want nothing more than for it to come as soon as possible."

 

That's harmful to society, mate... no matter how you slice it.

[pamela]

just a few subtle reminders as to how some religions are currently harming society

 

Joel's Army believers are hard-core Christian dominionists, meaning they believe that America, along with the rest of the world, should be governed by conservative Christians and a conservative Christian interpretation of biblical law. There is no room in their doctrine for democracy or pluralism.

 

...

 

According to Joel's Army doctrine, the enforcers of the five-fold ministry will be members of the final generation, for whom the landmark Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade constituted a new Passover.

This March, at a "Passion for Jesus" conference in Kansas City sponsored by the International House of Prayer, or IHOP, a ministry for teenagers from the heavy metal, punk and goth scenes, Engle called on his audience for vengeance.

 

"I believe we're headed to an Elijah/Jezebel showdown on the Earth, not just in America but all over the globe, and the main warriors will be the prophets of Baal versus the prophets of God, and there will be no middle ground," said Engle. He was referring to the Baal of the Old Testament, a pagan idol whose followers were slaughtered under orders from the prophet Elijah.

 

"There's an Elijah generation that's going to be the forerunners for the coming of Jesus, a generation marked not by their niceness but by the intensity of their passion," Engle continued. "The kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force. Such force demands an equal response, and Jesus is going to make war on everything that hinders love, with his eyes blazing fire."

Joel's Army and The Call | Right Wing Watch

 

and let's not forget Rick warren who loves hanging out with the really popular guys

Warren holds conservative theological views.While holding traditional evangelical views on social issues such as abortion, same-sex marriage, and stem-cell research, Warren has called on churches worldwide to also focus their efforts on fighting poverty and disease, expanding educational opportunities for the marginalized, and caring for the environment. During the 2008 United States presidential election, Warren hosted the Civil Forum on The Presidency at his church with both presidential candidates, John McCain and Barack Obama. Obama later sparked controversy when he asked Warren to give the invocation at the presidential inauguration in January 2009.

and his purpose drivel life

The P E A C E Plan is an initiative begun by Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California. Senior pastor Rick Warren's stated intention in launching the P E A C E (or PEACE) Plan is to involve every Christian and every church in every nation in the task of serving people in the areas of the greatest global needs. The tag-line is 'Ordinary people empowered by God making a difference together wherever they are'. P E A C E is an acronym for the stated methodology for achieving the plan: "Promote reconciliation - Equip servant leaders - Assist the poor - Care for the sick - Educate the next generation."

Rick Warren - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[modest]

Old Testament times were barbaric.

 

That is perhaps a very good reason not to trust a document written in that period as the immutable standard on morality.

 

The specific reasons for Old Testament brutality in my mind were three-fold. One, to prevent the dispersion of Isrealites into various surrounding cutures allowing, two, descendants to learn and maintain the way of life that, three, maintained an inexorable allegory that would later be perceived as an unmistakable prophecy of a certain someone.

 

Here you give reasons why God commits genocide—why he kills people. But, the reasons you give are not the reasons he gives. Here are the first 3 relevant quotes I found in as many minutes:

(For the LORD your God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD your God be kindled against you, and destroy you from off the face of the earth.

 

Deuteronomy 6:15

God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

 

Nahum 1:2

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

 

Exodus 20:5

He kills for revenge, for jealousy, for hatred, and anger.

 

~modest

 

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev%2026:15-34;&version=9;

[Southtown]

of course, it is the individual who does good or bad whether that be guided by religion or not.We all have a set of moral codes that we either adhere to or not, aside from a religious derivation

know that well southtown, i live in the buckle of the bible belt where there are off shoots of off shoots of denominations;)

and, the regular run of the mill christian joe.

I spent my first 25 years in Amarillo, Texas.

 

many many things can indeed be twisted that is true. You should be aware though, that people who tout themselves as righteous are to be blamed for an inflated ego;)

You say that before hearing any argunment? How arrogant... :)

 

And yet... being conned is not the issue to which I was calling attention. The issue was the fact that all of these believers "love, love, love the idea of Armageddon, and want nothing more than for it to come as soon as possible."

 

That's harmful to society, mate... no matter how you slice it.

I can't excuse the actions of others. I can only present my point of view. But I ask, are all white people guilty of owning slaves?

 

just a few subtle reminders as to how some religions are currently harming society

 

 

 

Joel's Army and The Call | Right Wing Watch

 

and let's not forget Rick warren who loves hanging out with the really popular guys

 

and his purpose drivel life

 

Rick Warren - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do not believe that any of that is scriptural. And I would rather debate with him about it than with you. Sorry, but I am of the opinion that discussions about morality by nature apply only to the attendees, meaning any verdicts reached that are pushed beyond the group immediately becomes propaganda.

 

That is perhaps a very good reason not to trust a document written in that period as the immutable standard on morality.

What can I say? Approach everything with caution.

 

Here you give reasons why God commits genocide—why he kills people. But, the reasons you give are not the reasons he gives. Here are the first 3 relevant quotes I found in as many minutes:

 

He kills for revenge, for jealousy, for hatred, and anger.

BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Lev 26:15-34;

Well, yeah. If you profess to follow him, but secretly 'worship other gods' (literally submit to other mighty ones) then you are a hypocrite. Did you think Yahweh was addressing the entire human race in his declarations to Yshra'el? If his nation had dispersed and not returned, we would not be having this discussion. Additionally, within that context, if the savior hadn't come then the wrath would have probably replaced him.

[pamela]

Originally Posted by the arrogant one;)

many many things can indeed be twisted that is true. You should be aware though, that people who tout themselves as righteous are to be blamed for an inflated ego

You say that before hearing any argunment? How arrogant...

 

hmmmn whatcha think about this?

 

What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:

"There is no one righteous, not even one;

there is no one who understands,

no one who seeks God.

All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one."

"Their throats are open graves;

their tongues practice deceit."

"The poison of vipers is on their lips."

"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."

"Their feet are swift to shed blood;

ruin and misery mark their ways,

and the way of peace they do not know."

"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.

 

I do not believe that any of that is scriptural. And I would rather debate with him about it than with you. Sorry, but I am of the opinion that discussions about morality by nature apply only to the attendees, meaning any verdicts reached that are pushed beyond the group immediately becomes propaganda

well good luck, if you decide to debate todd bently then he will kick you in the face and cast the devil out of you-and that my dearest southtown is harmful to you in society. These dominionists are out of control and causing harm to many, it would behoove you to google this and see the extent of the harm that is currently going on

[Southtown]

joel's army and the call | right wing watch

i do not believe that any of that is scriptural. And i would rather debate with him about it than with you. Sorry, but i am of the opinion that discussions about morality by nature apply only to the attendees, meaning any verdicts reached that are pushed beyond the group immediately becomes propaganda.

these dominionists are out of control and causing harm to many, it would behoove you to google this and see the extent of the harm that is currently going on

Sorry. I should not have tried to dismiss a discussion. That was pretty stupid. Obviously, after I look into it I will only be able to offer scriptural arguments, which around here are usually countered with the "what-makes-your-interpretation-superior" argument. And then I would reply with something like "because I'm not in the news" or some such. Can you tell I been here a little too long? lol Anyway, I apologize and I still owe you a serious response. Thanks for your candor.

[pamela]

Sorry. I should not have tried to dismiss a discussion. That was pretty stupid. Obviously, after I look into it I will only be able to offer scriptural arguments, which around here are usually countered with the "what-makes-your-interpretation-superior" argument. And then I would reply with something like "because I'm not in the news" or some such. Can you tell I been here a little too long? lol Anyway, I apologize and I still owe you a serious response. Thanks for your candor.

Like most fanatical sects these days, they take a couple of scriptures and base a whole new ideology and movement around them. They have detracted from the main concept and base line of christianity to a more agressive and often gross display of actions towards those that would follow them .Not only do they prey upon the weak and hurting but they instill a type of conditioning in them that forces them to recreate the same behaviour.Although, Southtown, you may find scriptures to disprove their validity and thus renounce them as being a "true" christian, it still will not change anything.Their behaviour is insidious and they seek to tear down humanity all in the name of Christianity

[freeztar]

For what it is worth, I live in the "bible belt" as well. When I look around me these days (compared to 10 years ago) it seems that secularism has taken a hold. It is not atheist that are hiding out, it is the Christians.

 

So, in my society, religion is becoming increasingly less of a harm on society.

God bless those "false prophets" that have ruined it for a lot of folks. God bless the recession that keeps the tithes at a minimum. God bless the city for not advertising Churches (oh wait...the signs are still abutting the highways...).

 

My stepmother, who works at one of the largest churches in my region, has noted that attendance has dropped off dramatically (Skinner, anyone?).

 

The City of Atlanta has seen its fair share of corruption. Fortunately, people are getting smarter and their crap doesn't fly anymore. You can not hide behind God. Not on my watch. :)

 

It seems it wasn't so bad that Yankees came down to Georgia. We have more secularism now. Go Olympics! ;)

[modest]

Here you give reasons why God commits genocide—why he kills people. But, the reasons you give are not the reasons he gives. Here are the first 3 relevant quotes I found in as many minutes:

 

He kills for revenge, for jealousy, for hatred, and anger.

BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Lev 26:15-34;

Well, yeah. If you profess to follow him, but secretly 'worship other gods' (literally submit to other mighty ones) then you are a hypocrite.

 

Even if people are hypocrites (and, granted, they are), I still think it's dangerous to worship a God who ethnically cleanses whole nations of people because he is jealous and vindictive. You might not be able to see it from your perspective, but supporting and advocating the morality of genocide can actually be dangerous.

 

Did you think Yahweh was addressing the entire human race in his declarations to Yshra'el?

Who he was addressing has nothing to do with it. He was murdering non-Israelites (by your belief system). You can't tell me anything that Canaanite babies or children in Nineveh did to deserve their fate.

 

If his nation had dispersed and not returned, we would not be having this discussion.

 

It would be nice if we didn't have to have this (God tells people to commit genocide because he is jealous and vengeful) discussion.

 

Additionally, within that context, if the savior hadn't come then the wrath would have probably replaced him.

 

The wrath did replace him. After Jesus died, many churches took over in his name. They carried on the tradition of hate, jealousy, murder, genocide, etc. All the attributes which you find applicable to the God of the old testiment you find again in the christian church. That is where the danger becomes reality. Historically, religious violence is not the exception, but the rule. It's not a select group of fundamentalists who are misinterpreting what the bible says. On the contrary, christianity is what John Adams called "the bloodiest religion that ever existed" because its book is damn bloody.

 

They claim their labours are to build a heaven yet their heaven is populated with horrors. :hihi:

 

~modest