The new Fascism

[wigglieverse]

Hmm. Could be the "chosen people" are having their usual problems with corrupt leaders (read the Old Testament -the book of Kings has a bit to say about this "ongoing" problem).

What is ironic about this is that Israelis in general want to believe in the right of their (promised) ascendancy, but seem to be unable to overcome the problems that beset any "nation" of peoples and cultures -humans are fallible, after all.

There does seem to be a contemporary trend, world-wide, that demonstrates (once again) just how those who achieve power, view it as a means to an (selfish, self-aggrandising and financially enriching) end.

 

P.S. Maybe I should have called this thread: "The new Statesmanship"

[CraigD]

What is ironic about this is that Israelis in general want to believe in the right of their (promised) ascendancy

Wigglieverse, can you substantiate this claim with objective evidence, such as a well-controlled survey of Israelis, or even anecdotal evidence based on personal contact with Israelis?

 

I have at present only the latter, but my experience doesn’t support your claim. The Israelis I’ve know don’t express much optimism for the ascendancy, or even long-term survival of their nation, nor believe in mystical assurances of same. This experience is consistent with statistical data such as the 1991-1993 ISSP survey described in this relegioustolerance.org article, which suggests that Israelis are significantly less mystical than Americans (43.0% of Israelis agreed "I know God exists and I have no doubts about it", vs. 62.8% of Americans).

[wigglieverse]

Uh-huh. How many Israelis have moved there because they see the modern state as their 'true homeland', would you suppose?

How many politicians are in the positions they have because they have promised that the state will prevail, also? Could we possibly guess at the level of conviction to the cause (which necessarily involves the enforced removal of inferior or unwanted interlopers, and so conflict and hatred)? Despite the setbacks and the pessimism, and the talk of how the whole thing is beginning to look like a mistaken presumption (that Arabs would be happy to have millions of Europeans living on land they've had access to for centuries).

Comment: These kinds of practices were much more common during the days of colonisation, and what was effectively the dispossessment of land and resources from 'inferior' aboriginal peoples, so the superior European could live on them. Sound at all familiar?

[sanctus]

1) There is no plan to exterminate all Palestinians

As far as we know, you mean?

This seems like all the conspiracy theories made today by neo-nazis about a secret group of rich jews ruling the world...

No, there is no such plan. àhow can I be that sure? Simply because if ever such a thing happens the state of Israel would perish right away and not by the hand of Iran and other arab countries, but by the hand of the UNO, the EU and even the US. So it is not in their interest (not even in the one of the people of extreme views)

 

2) The refugee camps can't be compared to concentration camps

I think they can. Obviously the Isrealis haven't started building gas chambers and executing Palestinians as efficiently, but surely oppression is only a matter of degree. I would say there are plenty of Palestinian mothers who believe Israel is trying to destroy them.

As well as there are plenty of Israelian mothers (hidden machism? why only mothers?) who think the same of the palestinians...

No, oppression is not just a matter of degree. Killing in raids (I stand still to my view that it is only in mistake towards civilians, more to this below) and findding the most efficient way to kill people is not just a difference of degree of oppression. I might agrre that the Israelian government is doing oppression, but concentration camps were no oppression at all, it was an elimination program. Oppression to me is acting so that the target group has nothing to say/no rights (ok this was also the case in the concentration camps), but the methodical elimination is more than oppression.

3) There is no ghettoisation since they live in different places/cities

There most certainly is ghettoisation. Unless you can come up with another word for "enforced containment within a depleted area and denial of resources -like food, water, medicine..."

Ok if you define it this way...I would call it confinement.

4) The intolerance is not of the same nature (no superior race definition)

Really? So there are no Israeli Jews who believe that they have a superior claim to the land? Or that the Jews are a special race (chosen by God hisself). There aren't any Jews with these beliefs who are MPs or prime ministers, or generals? Thank God for that then...

Ignoring your ironic tone...

Sure there are some, every religion has its extremists and sometime they are also elected. But is this feeling wide-spread to all people living in Israel? No, watch once some documentaries about Israel, there seems to be more and more people there that believe that the violence isn't the solution. In Germany it was a wide spread opinion of the superior race...Also, a suggestion try not generalize if there are some who have a given view (just like the conclusion all Muslims are terrorists because some -the one who get media attention generally- are), otherwise you will be quickly labelled as racist (and anti-semit in this case)....

5) They try not to go against civilians, but it happens...this is not the same as explicitly going against civilians

They do no such thing. They have absolutely no regard (except for what the international community might have to say) for the lives of innocent Palestinians. They deploy snipers on Palestinian rooftops (because they are occupying Palestinian territory, remember?), and these guys shoot children playing, and parents or adults who try to rescue them. Just like a Jew-hating Nazi (IMO).This could be because they believe that Palestinians are an unwanted menace that must be dealt with (or it could be some other kind of 'misunderstanding').

 

Sure that this is the case, that they have no regard for the live of innocent Palestinians? How come then 1.4 millions residents of Israel are Arab (=19.8% of the whole population)? See for example Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And howcome there are plenty of Palestinians going from the refugee camps to work in Israel? If they are shot by the first chance as you suggest it happens why would they go at all (the argument no work doesn't count here because without work they would still be alive).

The place surely snipers on rooftops I agree, but I don't agree that they shoot children just for fun as you seem to imply.

 

 

Informatively it is the first time I defend Israeli, just because what you say is too extreme. You know I told you in my first post that I critic Israelin politic too because they have the money and resources to do it in another way; Palestinians do have less choice (but still have the choice!) and so it is more comprehensible that they pass to violence (not justifiable neither).

Saying that the Israelian politics is like the nazi is just taken too far away, there universes of cruelty between...The Israelis are also people and hence can also be scared and therefore act in a way which might not be humanitary, but this doesn't make them bad people. nazi didn't act out of fear, this makes them already "much more bad" people, just another difference in conclusion...

[questor]

While the Israelis are not without fault, I have to put the Palestinians in the same pot with the other suicidal nuts of the Middle East. the Israelis want peace, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iraq, Syria want to kill Israelis. their whole life is dedicated to killing and bemoaning their fate. if the Israelis traded territories

with the Palestinians, within our lifetime the Israelis would be tilling verdant fields, and the Palestines would create a desert. There is no good future evident for the Palestinians because they refuse to help themselves.

[wigglieverse]

There certainly does seem a kind of madness, or mad despair to their vows. But then I doubt that you really are able to appreciate what they feel or why. This, obviously, is a part of the bigger problem.

And also just as obviously, there are many Israelis and Arabs who don't agree with the violence, or with its use as a means to an end.

And Israel is far from being the only place where this sort of thing --oppression and the hatred that ensues-- is happening. There's a whole lot of desperate and miserable Africans in Sudan, where the Arab/Muslim government wants the natives off their land, and is using a civil war as an excuse for what is clearly genocide --the reason (or the excuse) President Clinton used to bomb Serbia and their army's tanks with A-10 tank-busters-- It's happening in lots of places, not just Israel.

But Israel is bit of a poster boy, I think. A shining example of how not to establish a nation.

[sanctus]

Questor, are all Palestinians like that? How can you conclude this?

All want peace, and I think the Israelis' action is worse because having more resources their choice is bigger, but they also mainly use violence to attempt to resolve the problems (which is proved to never have worked).

Since when Iraq is against Israel? I guess you meant Iran.

 

Hamas, Hezbollah and friends don't want to kill the Israelis, they want peace too and have a decent life (i.e. not in refugee camps with water and not desertic land). I think if they would make one big country down there where Palestinians and Israelians have all the same rights problems would be mostly solved. Have you ever asked yourself why kamikaze are found at all? If you are happy with your life, nationalism doesn't touch anymore so much to go kamikaze...

[wigglieverse]

The place surely snipers on rooftops I agree, but I don't agree that they shoot children just for fun as you seem to imply.

I take it you haven't seen the footage of the man trying to rescue his son and eventually succumbing, after hours of pleading and holding his his hands up while under continuous fire from Israeli soldiers on the roofs of abandoned buildings (actually swept clean of people for "security purposes", and so they have unrestricted access, for their "target practice"). I clearly remember the film crew trying to interview one of the Israeli soldiers some time later, responsible for killing the man and the boy. He kept saying "You don't understand...", and he's right, I don't understand.

 

And I don't understand what could lead people to the conclusion that talking about things like killing and hatred and oppression, must mean that someone is a killer, or a hater or oppressor. I would like those who have made such conclusions to at least, now explain what lead them there, I would be interested --notwithstanding that everyone reads their own view of absolutely everything, and pretty much builds their own world of beliefs I think such thinking cannot be described as rational, at least.

[CraigD]

… And howcome there are plenty of Palestinians going from the refugee camps to work in Israel? If they are shot by the first chance as you suggest it happens why would they go at all (the argument no work doesn't count here because without work they would still be alive).

The place surely snipers on rooftops I agree, but I don't agree that they shoot children just for fun as you seem to imply.

I take it you haven't seen the footage of the man trying to rescue his son and eventually succumbing, after hours of pleading and holding his his hands up while under continuous fire from Israeli soldiers on the roofs of abandoned buildings (actually swept clean of people for "security purposes", and so they have unrestricted access, for their "target practice"). I clearly remember the film crew trying to interview one of the Israeli soldiers some time later, responsible for killing the man and the boy. He kept saying "You don't understand...", and he's right, I don't understand.

Just because a particular person, living far from these events, doesn’t understand, doesn’t mean these events are incomprehensible. And evidence that some Palestinians and Israelis have fairly ordinary, secure lives, while others are engaged in killing and being killed by one another, does not imply that either everyone is secure, or everyone in severe peril.

 

The situation in and around Israel and Palestine is complex. Some locations have good law, order, and security, while others have deadly chaos. The same location is secure at one time, but not so a few months before or after.

 

While, IMHO, all war is loathsome, civil and guerilla war is an expecially ugly, dirty thing. Unlike an expeditionary war, the combatants can’t leave their civilian dependents at home while they don uniforms and go on a tour of duty – one may be planting bombs or sitting a sniper position one day, and going to market and taking children to and from school the next. A car that has been identified as belonging to an insurrection leader is destroyed by a helicopter launched Hellfire antitank missile, after which it’s discovered that the charred remains within are of a relative and his children. An teenage Israeli soldier is befriended, then kidnapped and killed by those he thought his friends. Pre-teen children commit suicide bombings. Students blow up their classmates at parties. And, in hot zones, in addition to warfare, ordinary money-making, life-taking crime is rampant.

 

The only solution I believe can succeed is the one that has already proven effective for the roughly 1.4 million people of Arab ethnicity who currently make up about 20% of the citizen of Israel, and about 30% of the total Arab population in and around the territory or Israel – the unification of the Israelis and Palestinians under a single government, with all citizens enjoying equal opportunity and protection under its laws.

 

Aside from the “how can it be made to happen” question, an obvious problem with this solution is that, under it, only a narrow majority – about 55% - of Israel-Palestinians would identify themselves as Jewish, and as such, might no longer match the “national home for the Jewish people” envisioned in the 1917 Balfour declaration largely responsible for the formation of present-day Israel. IMHO, this is not a legitimate objection – the formation of a state, neighborhood, club, or any other social unit based a religious or ethnic test is contrary to an important and fundamental principle of law, not just of the US (the jurisdiction of which Israel and Palestine are obviously are obviously outside), but of lawful society in general.

 

Emphasizing, as some have in this thread, the violent actions of particular Israelis and Palestinians, no matter how egregious, is IMHO not a productive approach to reducing the wrongful death, suffering, and discontent of Palestinians and Israelis. Declaring one side right, and the other wrong, won’t work. Not only in Israel and Palestine, but throughout the world, peace and happiness can only be achieved through political unity and legitimate government.

[sanctus]

I

 

And I don't understand what could lead people to the conclusion that talking about things like killing and hatred and oppression, must mean that someone is a killer, or a hater or oppressor. I would like those who have made such conclusions to at least, now explain what lead them there, I would be interested --notwithstanding that everyone reads their own view of absolutely everything, and pretty much builds their own world of beliefs I think such thinking cannot be described as rational, at least.

 

Did I ever seem to conclude this? If so, I'm sorry I don't thinnk that anyone is bad because he talks about bad things.

[wigglieverse]

IMHO, this is not a legitimate objection – the formation of a state, neighborhood, club, or any other social unit based a religious or ethnic test is contrary to an important and fundamental principle of law, not just of the US (the jurisdiction of which Israel and Palestine are obviously are obviously outside), but of lawful society in general.

Israel is just one point on a large compass, but one that, along with other countries in that part of the world, is the focus of what we call "the media", and yes, they admittedly can't help but show a certain viewpoint, but images can be very powerful -viz the "cartoon uprising" in the Muslim world, spurred by a Danish newspaper.

But there seems to be some kind of building process of reduction of freedom, of taking away, rather than giving (it is now much easier to be arrested for terrorist "connections", or suspicion of such, in this country too --but the first "try-out" has turned into a complete farce, with the alleged terrorists revealed as a bunch of activists and alternative types with a few guns -which lots of other people own too).

So there's a leaning to the right, and the concerns of those who have power to maintain it, and for some, to maintain control of military and economic resources to ensure their own people can keep them in their positions of wealth and privilege.

[HydrogenBond]

Before I begin, I am only presenting this odd angle to create discussion and perhaps create some new insight into a complicated situation. I am a spiritual person. The bible calls the Jews the chosen people, which I don't have an problem with.

 

But on the other hand, if one was an aetheist and didn't believe in the bible and thought it was only myth, for a Jew to maintain their biblical sanction as the chosen race, could be mistaken for racism. If one believes in the bible then this is OK. But if this reference source is not given the same credibility, by another person, in their mind is it no different than using any other book as the basis for a racist justification.

 

Main Entry: rac·ism

Pronunciation: ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-

Function: noun

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

 

Again I have no problem, but maybe those who have shifted toward aetheism, don't see the biblical reference source having the the same clout as a Judeo-Christian member. To them, maybe, the chosen race is a just an angle to justify a racist attitude. The Jews are stuck between a rock and a hard place. So there is no peace in the Middle east.

[wigglieverse]

I would call it confinement.

That´s what Hitler called it, so why not...?

The Israelis are also people and hence can also be scared and therefore act in a way which might not be humanitary, but this doesn't make them bad people. nazi didn't act out of fear, this makes them already "much more bad" people, just another difference in conclusion...

The Nazis used fear pretty effectively though (on other peoples, and on their own). Are you saying Israeli Jewish leaders are not doing this? Are you also saying that the gestapo ranks and informers on the street weren´t acting out of fear (for their own safety)?

[HydrogenBond]

One of the difference between Nazi's and Isreal is that the Nazi's did not have an organized internal resistance. If that happened, they would have been eliminated, plus a little extra. Once in power, the Nazi's became a bully against people who didn't offer any trouble. It was more like, if you are not with us, you are against us, instead of if you are against us, you are against us. Isreal has an internal resistance. There is a percieved difference between the peaceful and the warlike. One does not have to be for Isreal, just as long as you are not lawless and destructive.

 

It would be easier if Isreal rounded up the Palestinians, the good and the bad, led them out of the country, and then locked the door. At that point, one only have to defend the fence. But they are allowing the good people to remain, but in the process there are also many bad seeds. It becomes sort of a higher crime situation, needing more internal police. The police, out of fear, can lose good apples when they shake the tree.

[CraigD]

It would be easier if Israel rounded up the Palestinians, the good and the bad, led them out of the country, and then locked the door. At that point, one only have to defend the fence.

Though an oversimplification, that’s pretty much what’s already been done. 3.9 million Palestinians (compare to 7 million Israelis) live in the Palestinian territories, which are not part of Israel. About 200,000 of them live in East Jerusalem, (vs. about 710,000 total people of all nationalities in all of Jerusalem) which is or isn’t part or Israel depending on who you ask and how they define “in”.

 

About 1.3 million Palestinians live in Israel, and could arguably be rounded up and send to the Palestinian territories or elsewhere by Israel. There are about 0.5 million Israeli settlers living in the Palestinian territories, who could arguably be rounded up and sent back to Israel or elsewhere by Palestine.

 

There are about 4.5 million people identifying themselves as Palestinian living somewhere other than Israel or the Palestinian territories, most (3 million) of them in neighboring Jordan.

 

It’s a very complicated situation, involving people of many nationalities, ethnicities, and religions, many of whom have lived in their present locations for several generations. Though a very simple-sounding solution, I don’t think “round them up, lead them out, lock the door, and watch the fence” would work.

 

To quote fame-thrust-up-him American philosopher Rodney King, I think the only solution with much likelihood of success in this region is the “people, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along?” one.

 

Sources: wikipedia articles Israel, Palestine, Jerusalem, and Palestinians.

[charles brough]

removed because of duplication

[charles brough]

Nazism was a radical extreme, but as Wiggleverse indicated, there are some subtle similarities. These similarities stem from Judaic doctrine. They do not say they are the "super-race" as did the Nazis. Instead, their doctrine holds that they are "the chosen (by Yawheh) people." The inference is that He chose them BECAUSE they were somehow superior. Also, a sizable chunk of the whole Near East was, their doctrine says, promised to them. Here is the clincher: they were to take it back from the people living there. How? Well, the examples of how in their Judaic scripture show the Jewish army descending on them and slaughtering them. Those who were spared were taken into slavery!

 

Fortunately, Secular Humanism has spread over the Earth and Israel's secular government has to play by our secular rules regardless of what the rabid, Othodox Judaic believers believe. But that could change as our secular system keeps slipping and sliding downward. It has already gone so far that the old religions are increasingly evident in the operation of nations---including ours in the U.S.