The new Fascism

[wigglieverse]

<unsuitable and arguably hateful content removed>

[sanctus]

I'm also a big critic of the Israelian politic, but there are many differences between their actions and the one from nazis:

1) There is no plan to exterminate all Palestinians

2) The refugee camps can't be compared to concentration camps

3) There is no ghettoisation since they live in different places/cities

4) The intolerance is not of the same nature (no superior race definition)

5) They try not to go against civilians, but it happens...this is not the same as explicitly going against civilians

 

Just a few reasons that came into my mind but they are already enough to make the nazi far worse!

How do you explain the fact that a once oppressed people can turn so easily and find ready justification, for visiting the same thing on another people (who seem to fill the same role that the Jews played --as targets of hatred and demonisation)?

I don't agree that they do the same thing, but they are violent too; the reason for this is that it is always easier to "answer" (don't really know if one can define who started the first violence and hence who answered who) with violence (as simple as that), since all other solutions usually are slower.

[wigglieverse]

1) There is no plan to exterminate all Palestinians

As far as we know, you mean?

2) The refugee camps can't be compared to concentration camps

I think they can. Obviously the Isrealis haven't started building gas chambers and executing Palestinians as efficiently, but surely oppression is only a matter of degree. I would say there are plenty of Palestinian mothers who believe Israel is trying to destroy them.

3) There is no ghettoisation since they live in different places/cities

There most certainly is ghettoisation. Unless you can come up with another word for "enforced containment within a depleted area and denial of resources -like food, water, medicine..."

4) The intolerance is not of the same nature (no superior race definition)

Really? So there are no Israeli Jews who believe that they have a superior claim to the land? Or that the Jews are a special race (chosen by God hisself). There aren't any Jews with these beliefs who are MPs or prime ministers, or generals? Thank God for that then...

5) They try not to go against civilians, but it happens...this is not the same as explicitly going against civilians

They do no such thing. They have absolutely no regard (except for what the international community might have to say) for the lives of innocent Palestinians. They deploy snipers on Palestinian rooftops (because they are occupying Palestinian territory, remember?), and these guys shoot children playing, and parents or adults who try to rescue them. Just like a Jew-hating Nazi (IMO).This could be because they believe that Palestinians are an unwanted menace that must be dealt with (or it could be some other kind of 'misunderstanding').

[Inter.spem.et.metum]

The Israelis, and the Palestinians alike, do not have the same mindset as we do. They live in a different world. Life isn't treasured as much in that part of the world, and death is all around them. Both sides have no respect for each other, do not forget that.

 

The Israelis don't know who is the enemy and who isn't, so they kill everyone. The only way to fight guerrilla warfare is with total warfare. Is it right? I say no, but I'm a pacifist. Until the two cultures are seperated, there won't be peace (and maybe not even then).

 

You can't forget that Palestinians ARE the enemy of Israel. They are commited to taking back the "holy land".

[Queso]

So when will these idiots realize that every square inch of earth is holy including the square inches of their brains ?

 

:hihi:

[wigglieverse]

Until the two cultures are seperated, there won't be peace (and maybe not even then).

And who is going to take responsibility for "separating" them? Is there another planet they can be taken to perhaps? Peace seems improbable, but then there is a fairly severe cultural clash --the Israelis have imported their culture from Europe (after "flavouring" it with Zionism and Judaism), and the Palestinians have their own Arab culture. They both have completely different mythologies (which imo, is the reason for much of the strife), different ideals (about certain aspects of social "engineering", for instance), and different goals -Israel wants its ancestral homeland back and wants the "bad guys" to leave, the Palestinians want the Europeans who have "invaded" to leave them alone and let them have back their land. So who "owns" it?

You can't forget that Palestinians ARE the enemy of Israel. They are commited to taking back the "holy land".

And, of course, Israelis are not the enemies of Palestinians, right (they really just want to be friends)? They just want them off their land -and it looks like they are quite prepared, even "glad", to kill any resisters to this master plan. How are Palestinians different? Enemies are enemies, it's a dance for two...

[Buffy]

So, Mr. wigglie, how would *you* answer The Jewish Question?

 

If one has no affection for a person or a system, one should be free to give the fullest expression to his disaffection, so long as he does not contemplate, promote, or incite to violence, :hihi:

Buffy

[wigglieverse]

I don't have any solution to suggest (maybe someone else would like to have a go at this?).

Perhaps the solution was to not "create" the modern state of Israel (by scribbling on a bit of paper) in the first place. This happened because everyone thought this would "rescue" the (European) Jews from their despair, and they deserved to have their own country, since they hadn't had one since the Romans. Certainly it seemed like a good idea.

But it pretty much completely ignored the fact that Palestinians were living there too. Obviously this hasn't been a big concern for Israel (except for the resulting resistance), who seem be content (apart from occasional setbacks) to keep "removing" them.

But since it's a bit late to undo the making of Israel (the Arab curse), the world now must deal with the consequences of what was (the Balfour Declaration) essentially a license to take land off the Arabs (which the Israelis didn't have to wait long for an excuse to start doing -the result being 40-something years of dispossessed Palestinians in refugee camps within the borders of neighbouring Arab countries). Israel, naturally, does not want these "enemies" to return, so they remain stateless and ignored by the rest of the world -why should we care about a bunch of Arabs who want to kill us all?

[Buffy]

I don't have any solution to suggest (maybe someone else would like to have a go at this?).

This in combination with your oh-so-slightly-biased incitement to riot in the first post makes your thread here what we call on the Internet, "Troll-bait" and it is not appreciated.

 

You're obviously just trying to start a long-winded pointless argument in which you will call every counterpoint "biased" or "lies."

 

Please, we have better things to do.

 

Lead, follow or get out of the way, :cheer:

Buffy

[wigglieverse]

it is not appreciated.

Not by yourself anyway, that's kind of obvious.

we have better things to do.

Like what? Posting inane comments?

Lead, follow or get out of the way

Beep! Beep! You're in my way, you <removed> you.

 

Does this mean because a Moderator is upset that I should stop posting stuff about oppression, hatred, and all that other nasty stuff (which no-one wants to talk about)?

Or is it because Americans basically don't really give a monkey's either? So I should just crawl back under my bridge...

[Buffy]

I merely point out that your posts in this thread seem intended to do nothing but incite hatred. Is that your goal?

 

In an earlier post you said:

So there are no Israeli Jews who believe that they have a superior claim to the land?

...which would seem to say that you believe if at least one person of a certain social group has an opinion or takes an action, that all are guilty of the same offense. Do you see that as a justifiable position? If so, why? Would it only apply to Jews?

 

I point this one out because its just one example in your screed that displays bias which is not defensible, and thus represents the same bias that you are accusing others of having.

 

You're welcome to discuss "oppression and hatred" but you'll find that the approach you're taking--anger-filled, one-sided appeals to the evil of one party in a complex conflict, while refusing to provide any constructive or useful analysis--is simply not very effective. From a moderation standpoint, such discussions do not serve to "expose evil", they just get people to ratchet up that hatred, and create more pointless conflict.

 

In other words, its the Internet forum equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. We all hope that's not what you're trying to do, but from here it looks like it, and its not appreciated around here.

 

I apologize if you don't like the questions I'm asking, its kinda my job! :)

 

Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed! :cheer:

Buffy

[wigglieverse]

your posts in this thread seem intended to do nothing but incite hatred.

That sounds a lot like an opinion -presumably you have based this on your preconceptions that someone who posts something negative about the wonderful Middle East must have an axe to grind, or wants to incite hatred (of those lovely Jewish people, no doubt).

Would it only apply to Jews?

I take it you think I have no respect for these people. And I'm only pointing out what should be obvious to anyone who actually looks at the situation. Also I think it's probably the case that Americans mostly have no real idea of what life must be like for people (Palestinians especially) in that beleagured part of the world.

while refusing to provide any constructive or useful analysis

Like you're doing, you mean?

 

Sorry, but I think you either haven't read what I posted all that closely, or maybe you decided what it was saying after reading the first sentence.

Can you tell me why Israel is justified in doing what it's doing to the Palestinians? Or can you explain why Palestinians are all potential terrorists, perhaps, or why they feel justified about their fight -considering what they're up against?

[Qfwfq]

Does this mean because a Moderator is upset that I should stop posting stuff about oppression, hatred, and all that other nasty stuff (which no-one wants to talk about)?

No it means that those who run this site don't want this kind of stuff in here, and it says so in this site's rules:

 

"Also, we will not accept racist, sexist, hateful, or derogatory posts. Such posts may be deleted or edited without further notice. Violations of these ground rules might lead to banning without further notice."

 

Further, calling somebody (moderator or not) a silly person is against the rules too.

 

Note that personally I am firmly against Zionism because it only causes trouble and can hardly be done peacefully but it has been done by now. Some of the folks there would like to just get along peacefully together but the extremists get in their way. I've also read something I consider noteworthy: Primo Levi describes an encounter with some younger Jews (who had not been in the Lager) that were on their way to Palestine while he was returning from Monowitz. After describing the chat with them, he remarks that he did not like their attitude and wanted to never have anything to do with their plans. You could hardly call me a supporter of Zionism.

 

Fascism and Nazism are essentially forms of extreme nationalism. There are many forms of this, some using violence and others not, but there's no point in the rather blind comparisons of detail you make and it's not for these forums in any case.

[CraigD]

I think it’s important, in discussions of this kind, to be careful with the use of social and political science terms, especially with terms that are commonly misused. This thread’s title, “The new Fascism”, is IHMO an example of such misuse.

 

Fascism refers to a political ideology characterized by authoritarian central government control of local government and individuals, in which the rights of the individual is subsumed to the good of the central state. The term derives from an ancient Roman badge of office, and the metaphor of "strength through unity" represented by a bundle of sticks.

 

The state of Israel appears to me to show few characteristics of a fascist state, but to be nearly the opposite, with only lose control of individuals and local government by a central government. The other government geographically proximate to Israel, that of Palestine, is so decentralized that many argue it is more a collection of competing factions and regional authorities than a single central state government. The mere existence of two distinct states in geographic proximity is antithical to fascist ideology.

 

It appears to me that the term fascism is, in common parlance, a synonym for “brutal”, “dictatorial”, or simply “bad”. This is, I think, an abuse of language that serves to confuse and diminish understanding of politics and government.

[Qfwfq]

Fascism refers to a political ideology characterized by authoritarian central government control of local government and individuals, in which the rights of the individual is subsumed to the good of the central state. The term derives from an ancient Roman badge of office, and the metaphor of "strength through unity" represented by a bundle of sticks.

Actually Craig, the term can mean a very broad number of things, all referred to the Roman fasces, and you could be very surprised by the variety of ways in which the symbol appears. The most common sense as understood today is a generalization centred upon the fascist era of Italian history, so often extended to include the German Nazis, and now so very broadened that it hardly makes sense to be finical over single details.

 

The real point is that the term Fascist has now come to be almost universally stigmatized and hence offensive in most uses of it, including the OP of this thread. That's the thing to focus upon IMHO.

[wigglieverse]

To those who believe that I must hate (Jews, Nazis, Americans, ...).

You need to get your head out of (that dark place). You can see a lot better if you do.

What, if I may be so bold as to enquire, is the big problem here with what I have had to say.

Perhaps there are people who believe they are in control of this forum and what people are allowed to say, and who are (possibly) sympathetic towards the Israeli cause, and view the misery of the Palestinians as only what they deserve.

If so, I think I can safely accuse such people of wilful ignorance, at least. This is also because I have been accused of something I can see absolutely no evidence for. If the topic of oppression is distasteful, perhaps you need to find that other planet that's out there somewhere and go and live on it, because oppression and hatred are here to stay, sorry.

 

P.S. To those who can't read Latin -what do you think my Latin quote says? (this is not a riddle, I would really like to know if you are capable of an opinion)

[LaurieAG]

Can you tell me why Israel is justified in doing what it's doing to the Palestinians? Or can you explain why Palestinians are all potential terrorists, perhaps, or why they feel justified about their fight -considering what they're up against?

 

Hi wigglie,

 

It isn't all black and white.

 

Olmert leads in one poll: Most corrupt minister - Haaretz - Israel News

 

Olmert leads in one poll: Most corrupt minister

 

By Mijal Grinberg

 

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was judged the most corrupt member of government by the public during his second year in office according to the Sderot Conference, an annual gathering of experts which published its yearly report yesterday.