Economics and free market

[InfiniteNow]

Just as anticipated. You have no thought, you just want to try to criticize another's position. I have noticed by reading other post's you never offer a solution of your own. I do understand that you and Zith consider yourselves skillfull debators and want to debate without declaring a personal conviction. Let me play your game... if you have read any other posts by me, would you tell me which thread they were in? And did you understand my meaning? And if you disagreed, what was the reason? If you want to debate, you must at some time take a position and offer reasons to support your side.

 

You can continue attacking me all you want, but you raised a statement and I asked you a question regarding it, a question which you have still failed to address. You instead try to evade the question by asking distractatory questions of your own and strawmanning the issue toward debate tactics.

 

I have not begun to debate you, nor you me. I asked you a question which you cannot or will not answer.

 

 

 

I do hereby accept your implicit concession that you are unable to address the question posed to you.

[questor]

You seem to enjoy a pissing contest which I find childish and contributes nothing to anyone on this site. I know you read my thread The Optimum State

of Man, but you show no signs of understanding the meaning. Why would I continue to play games with you strictly by your rules? Why don't you offer up some information or insight? If you want to learn the reasons for poverty, read this..

washingtonpost.com

Read it thoroughly, think about it and get back to me.

[Michaelangelica]

Pyro, you absolutely proved my point when you said:

''They got off their butts and made something of themselves.'' These people had it in themselves all the time. The welfare check didn't change their character, it merely offered them a chance to exercise what they already had. What about the thousands that don't get off their butts and continue to remain on welfare? If welfare caused improvement and stimulated a new work ethic, we would soon have no reason for welfare.

Do you call the USA social security system welfare? What a joke. Some states have unemployment benefit and all have food stamps. So you are kept alive but die from exposure-very generous.

 

Mich, I am talking about the US, where everyone has an opportunity to rise or fall on their own effort. We have no dictator to rob the populous, free education, free libraries, freedom of expression, and freedom to become the best that you can be. The only thing in your way here is yourself. I'm aware of other countries whose leadership and social setup dooms their citizens to poverty for years to come.

Do you really believe this crap?

It is, what Yanks are indoctrinated with, or would like to believe, about their country rather than what really happens

• You have a bizzare & error-prone voting system where few vote and even then not the most popular person gets in.
  
• A county that kidnaps people, tortures people, locks up people for years without any "democratic rights"
  
• A county in the top five in the world that executes people. Those that you do lock up and kill are mostly from poor black & other minorities. The same minorities that it gets to fight its illegal wars.
  
• A county that no longer believes in "give me your poor" etc.
  
• A country that secretly plots, interferes with, and manipulates foreign governments.
  
• An education system that favours the rich (Bush's old school has two skating rinks).'Better suburbs' have better education resources.
  
• A health system that is the joke of the world unless you are rich.
  
• A rich country where 1 % of households owned 38 % + of all wealth or the top 5 percent have more wealth than the remaining 95 percent of the population, collectively.
  
• This wealth inequality is more unequal than any other comparable advanced industrial country( and some not so advanced too)
  
• The richest 10 percent of families own about 85 percent of all outstanding stocks (ie The rich own most of the productive assets of the country.)
  
• A government system with institutionalised corruption (senators "ear-making" defence expenditure etc)
  
• And judging from you comments a country with little compassion and care for its citizens.
  

The Great American dream is just that a dream.

Let's hope that The Lady is always kind to you and doesn't decide to teach you a lesson in life .

SEE

City Mayors: Hunger and homelessness in American cities

The survey’s authors say the main causes of hunger are:

• Unemployment and other employment related problems

• High housing costs

• Poverty or lack of income

• Medical or health costs

• Substance abuse

• Utility costs

• Mental health problems

• Transportation costs

• Lack of education

The survey’s authors say the main causes of homelessness are:

• Mental illness and the lack of needed services

• Lack of affordable housing

• Low-paying jobs

• Domestic violence

• Family disputes

• Substance abuse and the lack of needed services

• Prisoner re-entry

• Unemployment

• Poverty

• Sexual orientation

• Emancipation from foster care

Have a Merry Christmas, many won't.

[Zythryn]

... It is, what Yanks are indoctrinated with, or would like to believe, about their country rather than what really happens

 

Mich, I agree with you regarding most of your points, but I would really appreciate it if you would stop putting all 'yanks' in one basket. We aren't all indoctrinated with this opinion. Just as in Australia, we each are individuals and each tend to believe different things.

To repeatedly stereotype all 'yanks' is insulting. Especially when you are looking at extremist viewpoints.

[Michaelangelica]

Mich, I agree with you regarding most of your points, but I would really appreciate it if you would stop putting all 'yanks' in one basket. We aren't all indoctrinated with this opinion. Just as in Australia, we each are individuals and each tend to believe different things.

To repeatedly stereotype all 'yanks' is insulting. Especially when you are looking at extremist viewpoints.

Sorry to insult you. It was not intentional.

I was replying to questor's post that had already made this generalisation.

Is questor's a minority view? It certainly seems to inform a lot of US social policy.

 

It is, of course, impossible to generalise about a county as diverse as the USA.

But what word can I use that will not cause offence?

I won't use American,(even more general) and USAan is cumbersome.

 

Another trait I have found in Many People Who Live In The USA is an uncommonly strong patriotism and an easiness to take offence when their country is criticised. This often results in all the criticism being discounted as "Anti-American."

I think USA is a wonderful county to visit. It, almost, has the best and the worst of everything.

I just wouldn't like to live there, or especially, be poor there.

 

Merry Christmas.:cup:

[InfiniteNow]

Sorry to insult you. It was not intentional.

I was replying to questor's post that had already made this generalisation.

Is questor's a minority view?

 

I certainly hope so, but it probably wouldn't be hard to find evidence to suggest that this is not the case. To Zythryn's point, it really depends on who you ask.

 

 

 

:cup::cup:

[Zythryn]

If you want to learn the reasons for poverty, read this..

washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines

Read it thoroughly, think about it and get back to me.

 

Questor, interesting article. But the article made no statements about being poor. I talked at great length about the trouble of the education system in a particularily bad area which is not typical of most schools. It also found that the main reason for the troubles was the lack of parent participation.

So, I will ask again. Do you have any studies or even links to studies that show any support at all for your statements?

 

Mich, it isn't the term 'yank' (I like it a bit actually:)), it is the generalization. Why not simply say 'some people' or 'some yanks'.

And no, I don't believe Questors opinion is the majorities in the USA. From anectodal evidence (i.e. the people I personally know) it is very much in the minority. If it ever does become the majority opinion, can I come visit you;)?

[Michaelangelica]

If it ever does become the majority opinion, can I come visit you;)?

Any time Yank:)

(That's singular, as in ONE Yank, not plural, as in Many or All Yanks.

I am too poor to have you all over to stay:))

Merry Christmas.

 

PS

A good Victorian (as in the Oz State) Web Site on social welfare issues and initiatives.

Brotherhood of St Laurence - Media Releases

I especially liked.

(X is)" suffering from relevance deprivation syndrome,” Mr Nicholson said today.

“Without a scintilla of evidence he argues that those not in work and in receipt of welfare support have a low I.Q. and cannot benefit from training"

Brotherhood of St Laurence - Ideologically driven report out of touch with need

[Mike C]

To All

 

Why is everyone 'bashing' the poor? See my post #79, page 8.

 

We should be bashing this 'runaway' greed that is reducing our economy (US) to a 3rd world level.

 

Capitalism creates NO real tangible wealth. Their wealth is in their heads.

When you want something done, you need a pair of HANDS .

 

The only real free market economy is in Nature. Everything is FREE.

However, Nature also exacts a high LIFE tax. By that, I mean that there are the diseases, poison plants and the predators on land and in the oceans and seas.

So the survival rate of the newborns is reduced to a tolerable level to maintain some balance between the various species.

 

In Nature, there are NO billionaires or multi-millionaires. So in our FME, you know who is getting all the welfare.

This spread in incomes is the obvious answer.

 

Mike C

[questor]

Mich, you have demonstrated your virulent anti-Americanism, and your lack of understanding of what is happening in our country. Hopefully, poorly informed people do not attack your country for no apparent reason and with very little knowledge of facts. If you want to attack me personally for my views, be my guest. If you choose to do so, at least study your subject and know what you are talking about. You may be reading too many liberal news sources which give you a totally skewed view since they frequently adopt an anti-American stance also.

[questor]

Z, you are telling me you read the article on the DC schools and you could not see how poverty starts and see the traits I listed for poor people? I am stunned that someone cannot understand this problem. This system has 50,000 students, most of whom will visit jail frequently during their life, sell and take drugs, not graduate and at best be prepared for only the lowest paying jobs. If you think this is just a DC problem, you need to do some research. If this is the best you can do, I see no way we can continue to discusss the problem.

[questor]

Mike C, you think we are ''bashing '' the poor. How about looking at it another way. If the whole country believed that the poor need help other than just handing them a welfare check, which does nothing to improve their mind or job chances, maybe we could stop coddling them and offer constructive ways they can climb out of poverty.

[Zythryn]

Questor, No, I am saying that you failed to support your assertions.

Stories are nice. But they do nothing to support your assertions.

 

As for your comment to Mich, you should realize he got that impression of the USA from YOU;)

 

Now, are you simply trolling or would you care to back up any of your assertions?

[TheBigDog]

To All

 

Why is everyone 'bashing' the poor? See my post #79, page 8.

 

We should be bashing this 'runaway' greed that is reducing our economy (US) to a 3rd world level.

 

Capitalism creates NO real tangible wealth. Their wealth is in their heads.

When you want something done, you need a pair of HANDS .

 

The only real free market economy is in Nature. Everything is FREE.

However, Nature also exacts a high LIFE tax. By that, I mean that there are the diseases, poison plants and the predators on land and in the oceans and seas.

So the survival rate of the newborns is reduced to a tolerable level to maintain some balance between the various species.

 

In Nature, there are NO billionaires or multi-millionaires. So in our FME, you know who is getting all the welfare.

This spread in incomes is the obvious answer.

 

Mike C

And yet everyone finds the time to nitpick questor?

 

Bill

[questor]

Z, let me ask a few questions, they will only require a yes or no answer:

1. did you vote for Bush in either presidential election?

2. are you over 50?

3. are you pleased in your current job?

4. did your education play a large part in your current job?

5. do you think the US should have a better economic system?

6. do you think Americans should have a shorter work week?

7. do you think the rich should pay higher taxes?

8. should the doctors have their incomes reduced so we can have cheaper healthcare?

This question takes a longer answer:

can you mention 6 human traits or qualities that you admire?

[InfiniteNow]

And yet everyone finds the time to nitpick questor?

 

Bill

 

And yet you say nothing of questor's flaming, unsupported premises, logical fallacies, and evasion of questions. Yeah... of course... THAT makes sense. :rolleyes:

[questor]

Big Dog, thanks for your words in my behalf. If you take the time to read my posts you will see where my assertions are supported. I have posted a link to an article so one of the intelligentsia here could read it. The article obviously made no impact. The other intelligentsia continues to cry out for me to jump through his hoops but will not enter discourse by answering questions put to him. What is the use of conversing with people that ask questions but will answer none? The next step will be to accuse me of criminal procedures and call names. They are not interested in polite discouse, so I am done with them.