War

[Freddy]

first it was afghanistan (and no, not first, but first this time)

then iraq

and now iran.

 

at first this war was against terrorists,

now what?

 

it's dead obvious this war has some other agenda.

there are theories about oil. whatever.

 

what do you think this war is being fought for?

why are they fighting all of them? and why Iran?

We should have never have stopped chasing bin Laden in Afghanistan and Pakistan or finishing the job there. Six years later and the sorry SOB responsible for 3,000 lives on 911 is still around to mock us! Meanwhile, the Taliban is mounting renewed resurgence. Bush is a fool!

 

Bush misled the nation and gave us Iraq to the tune of almost 4,000 US troops KIA and $600 billion in war debt. For what? Oil, pride, revenge but certainly not to fight terrorism. It is time to tell the Iraqis to shape up or we are pulling out.

 

Iran is a threat but is war the right option? Diplomacy and sanctions may stop the Iranians from developing nuclear weapons. Another war is the last thing we need.

 

It is time to get back to killing terrorists and protecting America from them. Bush will do his best to continue in Iraq and start a war with Iran.

[LaurieAG]

Hi Orb,

 

what do you think this war is being fought for?

why are they fighting all of them? and why Iran?

 

It certainly isn't democracy or they wouldn't be doing things that would be considered anti-democratic in their own countries and while the oil companies may be making good profits (with considerable expenses, in Iraq at least) the speculators are making much more.

 

But then again, with the massive expansion of the global financial system since the 1970's, there is a very good reason for the politicians to divert the attention of the plebs (a boondoggle) from the real problems facing the people of the world today.

 

It's a laugh really, when you consider how printing money is considered such a bad thing but deregulation, unregulated war and intense speculation is considered benign.

 

That's one thing that always got me, how far do you have to deregulate your own democratic obligations and responsibilities before you actually create anarchy? Hopefully we won't get to find out in our lifetimes, but I doubt it.

[Queso]

We should have never have stopped chasing bin Laden in Afghanistan and Pakistan or finishing the job there. Six years later and the sorry SOB responsible for 3,000 lives on 911 is still around to mock us! Meanwhile, the Taliban is mounting renewed resurgence. Bush is a fool!

 

Bush misled the nation and gave us Iraq to the tune of almost 4,000 US troops KIA and $600 billion in war debt. For what? Oil, pride, revenge but certainly not to fight terrorism. It is time to tell the Iraqis to shape up or we are pulling out.

 

Iran is a threat but is war the right option? Diplomacy and sanctions may stop the Iranians from developing nuclear weapons. Another war is the last thing we need.

 

It is time to get back to killing terrorists and protecting America from them. Bush will do his best to continue in Iraq and start a war with Iran.

 

There is evidence proving that bin laden has nothing to do with it.

why do you think everyone just forgot about his sorry allied ***?

his family is wealthy, and they are friends with the bush family. look it up.

recently I've seen in papers things like "osama bin laden now minor threat"

and it's just total BS, the media weening you from one enemy to the next.

 

If you look at the rhythms of the government,

they frequently throughout history have inflicted fear upon the people

to woo them into accepting War.

I, and many other people, believe that 911 was an inside job.

It was the perfect algorithm to acquire the support needed by "the people" to initiate "the war on terror"

We can go on and on and on about this. I'd rather not. It's my opinion, I've seen enough evidence.

The american government is an invisible meme that manipulates people with motion, words, rhythm, lies.

THEY, all together, are the terrorist.

Like a junkie in denial, hungry for that green green fix.

 

History is repeating itself over and over and over

and the spiral is tightening, folks.

These cycles get shorter and shorter.

All these lies make perfect sense.

[Buffy]

I, and many other people, believe that 911 was an inside job.

Orb sez, "George W. Bush was the most brilliant geopolitical strategist of all time, with operatives so savvy and technically skilled in espionage that there's not a shred of evidence pointing to back to them."

 

I think the whole point of this thread is that there's no possible way that the same folks that conducted the most embarrassingly inept war in all of US history could have possibly pulled off this particular wacky conspiracy theory.

 

Knock me over with a feather,

Buffy

[Queso]

that may be true, Buffy.

I'm a toaist at times I like to see both sides (even if it may not be apparent, something I'm working on)

 

One thing's for sure, though,

the terrorist here is the war machine.

Yes, there may be extremists, kamikazis, but where are they?

They're over there...

I never ever see anything blow up here.

 

Buffy, and everyone,

I have no idea what happened on 9/11....

it's all lies. that's all I know.

 

It was the perfect excuse to go to war, and they did, and they're still at it...

How will it end?

By the media slowly crossfading into some other...imporant....new....thing...

[LaurieAG]

I think the whole point of this thread is that there's no possible way that the same folks that conducted the most embarrassingly inept war in all of US history could have possibly pulled off this particular wacky conspiracy theory.

 

Buffy, you underestimate the powers of mediocrity.

 

In a mediocrity conspiracy you can become a hero if you neglect your true responsibilities deliberately, induce some dupes/patsys to raise havoc and then play the hero on the white charger. If you are a truely mediocre mediocrat you can do the first two, and due to your innate mediocrity, actually fail to put things right and become the hero.

 

Machiavelli outlined the basic (political) process in his novel 'The Prince'. The usual trick was to hire some local mercenaries and bad dudes to terrorise the local peasants whose land you desired. When the peasants flee to gain the security of their local lord, they find themselves locked up by the lord and turned into serfs. The local lord then goes out and kills all of the miscreants (chosen because their death would not be a real loss). The benefit was the peasants land and resources were acquired by the local lord and he didn't have to pay the mercenaries.

 

Buffy, I agree wholeheartedly that this inept end game could not be due to a Machiavellian conspiracy, but must be due to a truely mediocre mediocrity.

[Michaelangelica]

 

Buffy, I agree wholeheartedly that this inept end game could not be due to a Machiavellian conspiracy, but must be due to a truely mediocre mediocrity.

It is very interesting to read of the CIA machinations in Afghanistan under previous administrations and during the USSR invasion of Afghanistan.

You certainly wonder why you (USAans) pay these guys.

Even when they have good advice no -one in the administration listens.

 

The best chance of peace in Afghanistan was under the northern war leader Massoud. While the administration and CIA dithered (and were continually knifed in the back & mis-led by the trusted Pakistan) Bin Laden sent assassins to kill Massoud. Probably a few weeks before the US were to get behind him. (Conspiracy theory anyone? Leaky CIA/Pakistan??)

 

As far as the causes of war; I do like some of the research done on "in" and "out" groups done by social psychologists. Especially the ones manipulating kids at Summer Camp (would not get though the ethics committee today!)

( Have you seen anyone do the "blue eye brown eye" experiment on TV? or Zimbardo's Standford Prison study?)

It seems if you scratch us, you find a territorial, 'nationalistic' (group-alistic?) ape.

Happy Days.

[Boerseun]

I'm convinced that this war is about oil.

 

Or that's how it started, at least. Now the US can't pull out and leave Iraq in the mess it is without losing immense face in the world community. It's a catch-22.

 

But now coming back to terrorism, what to do about it?

 

Easy.

 

You simply cannot fight terrorism using conventional means. That's why they turned to terrorism in the first place. Duh. So what you do is to tell the terrorists that you will meet them and discuss with them their gripes. Find out why they're as pissed off with you as they seem to be. Then tell them whether you can accept their demands or not (most likely not). Then they will go underground and do their thing. Then, on the world stage, you tell the entire world that anybody helping these guys will be economically isolated, and hosting terrorists will be seen as a declaration of War. You should be able to push that through the UN quite easily, so that if host countries are found to assist the terrorists, you don't declare unilateral war - that's one of the big gripes here. And then, if such a country is found to host these terrorists, you don't invade, you simply launch massive amounts of ordnance at key economic installations from afar, say, a few nuclear subs should do. They're already there, after all. This will be cheaper than supporting an invasion force by orders of magnitude.

 

Soon, third world countries will simply kick any of these guys out, seeing as the UN will support it and they won't have a platform to scream from. They won't want their economy blown to bits because of a few nuts willing to blow themselves up. Humans are greedy, after all.

 

You'd only have to remotely fire against one or two countries, and the rest will start falling in line. But you should never invade and pretend it's not about resources. I'm from the Third World myself, and I can guarantee you, we're not exactly that stupid.

 

Get the UN to ratify the intentional hosting and funding of terrorist forces as being an Act of War, and there you go. You might not like the UN, and see it as simply a soap box for anti-US sentiments, (but then, if you're amongst a lot of people and your actions are really pissing them off, you wouldn't like their comments, either. It doesn't make them wrong, and you right, however)

but any actions against host countries after such a ratification will then at least have a semblence of legality to it.

 

Civilization is pretty cool, I say. And civilization is built upon laws and rules and the respect thereof. And, also, on a global scale, the respect of international law. Which makes a terrorist host country an agressor, seeing as hosting terrorists with the aim of harming another country is an act of war, but also the unilateral invasion of other countries, seen in the light of international law and civilization, is bullyish and barbarian.

[Michaelangelica]

I'm convinced that this war is about oil.

.

You make some good points.

Something has to be done other than what we are doing now.

Talking to terrorists worked in Ireland.

Economic sanctions worked in your country against apartheid.

 

I would pull back at the bombing bit though. The USA is renowned for its "friendly fire" accidents or the occasional aspirin factory or hospital being blown up. This would only feed terrorism like sticking a stick into a hive of hornets. Even if you did hit the right target; propaganda can me made from such attacks.

One of the reasons I am so annoyed with the Australian and US governments about Iraq is their jetesing of democratic principles (eg Guantanamo Bay). We need to be "purer than the driven snow" and show that democracy, freedom, human rights , human dignity and individualism are valued by our societies.

 

Is Iraq about oil? Who knows?

When they open up the archives in 50 years I will be long gone.

They are the only people with any real reserves left as far as we know.

 

Maybe it is just Bush trying to show he is doing something about terrorism.

He had been in Afghanistan for years. He couldn't attack the Bin Ladens in Saudi Arabia so Iraq was next best thing. Finishing off what daddy started. Better than reading kid's books upside down.

It could be as dumb-arsed and sad as that.

 

By the way did anyone see the report that showed Afghanistan , who used to supply 50% of the world's heroin, now supplies 90%? Is that good agronomy advice from the CIA?

[Qfwfq]

Orb sez, "George W. Bush was the most brilliant geopolitical strategist of all time, with operatives so savvy and technically skilled in espionage that there's not a shred of evidence pointing to back to them."

I wouldn't expect to find evidence of the White House having planned and organized it themselves, but there's plenty of fishy details about the whole thing.

 

I think the whole point of this thread is that there's no possible way that the same folks that conducted the most embarrassingly inept war in all of US history could have possibly pulled off this particular wacky conspiracy theory.

If they had been less inept they might have made it less obvious that they had no intention of preventing it. Or even an intention of not preventing it.

 

Perhaps they were simply banking on most folk being fools and most of the rest preferring not to see. Plus some of the folklore circulating is far fetched and absurd, making the accusers look like ridiculous cranks unless you distinguish these from the more reasonable objections. Some say this is an actual strategy against accusations; make it just too confusing to sort out and, if some do, most won't.

 

If you listen to fools...

The mob rules!

[Boerseun]

Better yet, let it be known that if anything like 9/11 or the terrorist attacks in London ever happens again, then Mecca will be obliterated.

 

Then, fake news footage of a terrorist attack somewhere. Have local guys in place to cut all phone lines into and out of Mecca. Flood the newspapers and televisions of the world with Hollywood-made graphic & gory footage of Mecca going up in a mushroom cloud and the terrible devastation afterwards. Half-burnt people running around screaming, etc. Big flat blasted smoking emptiness where Mecca once stood. Then the terrorists will frantically phone their cousins in Mecca to find out what the deal is, only to get no dial tone. You've cut all comms to Mecca, see. In about three or four days, comms will be restored, and the world will sigh in relief that all the terrible footage of the last few days was only a hoax and cleverly made graphics.

 

Then tell the terrorists that what they saw the last few days is exactly what'll happen if they don't stop their crap. See it as a rehearsal, so to say.

 

I bet that'll make them think twice.

[Michaelangelica]

to and out of Mecca. Flood the newspapers and televisions of the world with Hollywood-made graphic & gory footage of Mecca going up in a mushroom cloud and the terrible devastation afterwards. Half-burnt people running around screaming, etc. Big flat blasted smoking emptiness where Mecca onc.

 

I bet that'll make them think twice.

It has already been done.

If you ever get a chance see if you can find a DVD of the Rise and Rise of Peter ? Rimmer

Here it is at Amazon- wonderful Google! better than my memory. I'm glad it has not been lost I thought it might have been.

Amazon.co.uk: Peter Cook - The Rise And Rise Of Michael Rimmer ...

The mysterious Michael Rimmer (Peter Cook) appears at a small advertising agency and soon takes over from the hapless employees, including the bumbling ...

Amazon.co.uk: Peter Cook - The Rise And Rise Of Michael Rimmer [2006]: Explore similar items - 46k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

[ More results from Amazon.co.uk: low prices in Electronics, Books, Music, DVDs & more ]

 

It has a lot of funny things to say about democracy, capitalism, war etc. Very old movie but I remember it fondly. Would love to see it again. It may have dated, but probably not, given Peter Cook's genius.:wave:

[Buffy]

Then tell the terrorists that what they saw the last few days is exactly what'll happen if they don't stop their crap. See it as a rehearsal, so to say.

 

I bet that'll make them think twice.

Nah, they're just like the whacko extremist Christians: They all *want* The Apocalypse because it will prove them right and motivate their remaining co-religionists to eliminate the rest of the unbelievers.

 

Heck the *only* bombs that have ever gone off any where near Mecca recently were placed by...al Qaeda... :wave:

 

What we find out from history is that while indeed some of the "CIA plots" that have been considered have been creepy, and even self-destructive, its virtually impossible to ever keep them secret over the long-haul: dirty laundry gets aired, especially when lots of people are involved and when things go wrong.

 

Things keep speeding up, and even though this administration still has over a year left, there are books coming out all over the place by people *who were there* describing the ineptitude and bone-headed ideas that have been considered and acted on. Sure there's lots probably left to be discovered, but giving them credit for brilliance when none is due is foolish. I've seen little to convince me that what has happened is simple acting out of intensely juvenile greed and self-righteous ego, and the irrationality of the justification backs the notion that the main operational force is incompetence.

 

Its pretty well documented that Bush and the neo-cons had Iraq in their sights long before he was even in office, but fomenting terrorism to justify it is about 5 times too complex of a scenario for the Gang That Can't Shoot Straight, and even for much more sophisticated conspirators, much too hard to actually pull off, compared to simply using the pre-existing "Saddam has WMD" story. What's come out is that some of the neo-cons in the administration were actually *worried* that the attacks and the reaction to them were a serious *detriment* to "doing something about Iraq."

 

I think people like conspiracy theories for the same reason we like horror stories: they're scary and adrenaline inducing. But there are plenty of dots to connect without them, and raising them just *detracts* from nailing the idiots who deserve to be vilified for their extreme greed and egos.

 

Never ascribe to conspiracy that which can be more easily ascribed to stupidity,

Buffy

[whitbywitchuk]

Absolutely agree, no war is winable and if the masses

 

looked at how we are programmed to live our life, if they

 

could just step back and go.. hang on a minute?? they

 

would start to question why we are like we are and why

 

we have followed these war mongers over the centuries.

 

Our programming, all the 'heros' are 'warriors' except for a

 

very few exceptions.

 

I have been really busy but I have just managed to pull up a

 

couple of things of interest. I really do recommend googling

 

Alex Jones stuff and Freeman Perspective, and David Icke

 

(especially Freedom to Fascism). Even though a lot of it

 

seems 'out there', most of the research is based on solid

 

evidence, (unfortunately Icke tends not to put sources into

 

his powerpoints which is very very naughty :)). However,

 

in the absence of that I am hoping you will take the time to

 

just read some of these....

 

 

Buffy, I don't like having these theories, my life was quite

 

comfy without them however the more you look at it, the

 

more you watch and read whats out there and not fed to

 

you through the mainstream, you start reading what they

 

are doing.

 

One thing that REALLY bothers me is that the worlds

 

events are following to the letter a plagiarised (hoax)

 

document 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion' and

 

revelations in the Bible. Now it is difficult to know if they

 

were spooky prophecys which are coming true or whether

 

those in the know and in charge are engineering world

 

events to make it so.

 

One thing I do know is that they are very very clever and

 

there IS something going on and that a pattern is formed so

 

that you can see it in global events when you know what

 

to watch for.

As for the Christian thing, one only has to see those

 

neocons at Bohemian Grove to know they are not true

 

Christians and that they have an alternative view of

 

religion.

 

Incidentally, watch out for Put options on the stock

 

markets to read possible big events, although they might

 

stop doing this now as people are catching on. Our banks

 

are suffering a bit and a Putt option was placed betting the

 

drop. Also I am watching the French input on Iran because

 

there are no sides REALLY here, only the major players. I

 

am waiting for the fall guy to fall on his sword

 

(figuritively speaking) G W Bush as he leaves office... so

 

the new puppet can be elected in and trusted, but we aint

 

fooled :naughty: I believe that someone is already there

 

saying that Mr Greenspan (the worrying title of his book

 

incidentally 'The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New

 

World. admitted giving orders to Bush prior to invasion of

 

Iraq that they should go in. Watch what this man says,

 

slippery, another one. He is already warning on the British

 

'inflation' that is coming up so he is internation well in the

 

know.

 

Meanwhile if this forum will permit me to post these links

Here is one of the old Bin Laden video overlayed by an

 

image from the new Bin Laden video -

 

'prisonplanet.com/images/july2007/180707osama3.jpg'

 

Something here on the Iranian issue

'telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=E3KMWW5V

VIXZNQFIQMFSFF4AVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2007/05/27/w

iran27.xml'

 

 

And just so that all the citizens of the US feel safe ;) (its ok

whatever you get we end up getting in the UK lol)

'northcom.mil/News/2007/VS-08_fact_sheet.pdf'

along with someone's perspective on it here...

'blacklistednews.com/view.asp?ID=4185'

 

Hope they are of interest to some

byeeee x

[Queso]

doesn't mr. icke believe that the president is an amphibeous alien, and that there are all different types of aliens that intervene with our planet?

 

:naughty:

[Queso]

If I was famous for writing...I suppose I'd have fun with it.

[Freddy]

There is evidence proving that bin laden has nothing to do with it.

 

I, and many other people, believe that 911 was an inside job.

Care to provide the evidence? Bin Laden has claimed responsibility for 911.

FOXNews.com - Bin Laden Claims Responsibility for 9/11 - U.S. & World