Spinning Button On A String

[Turtle]

Its a hell of a workout! :edizzy:

 

Tougher than you might expect, and timing of set/release also an aquired skill

 

But you can feel the Universal effects of the vibrations when the reverberations return in forms of animals, winds of change, good fortunes.

 

Metaphysical;

or Chaos theory, Butterfly effect! :estrange:

 

Video of Khua Spinning Large now in the Gallery :confused:

video

[Turtle]

Quantifications of Imaged Khua.:eek2:

The disk in the video is roughly 12" on the short diameter & 20 1/2" on the long axis. I Haven't weighed it.:) The cord is 1/4" braided nylon. I have a 7/8" X 6" dowel handle with a screw-eye in my hands.

Interesting that the disk dimension ratio is 1 foot to 1 cubit. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit )

 

Edit PS The disk is in the shape of a vesica piscis: http://hypography.com/forums/physics-mathematics/1902-vesica-piscis-real-sacred-geometry.html

It is constructed of 1/2" plywood, has an airfoil cross-section, & some 12 coats of acrylic paint.

Crank up your audio when watching the clip.:hihi: :eek: :shrug:

[Turtle]

Continuing. I added some of the dimensions into an edit of the last post; this time not.

The disk weighs 1 pound, & the distance between my handle & the post is 6 feet, or 1 fathom.

Keeping with the physics, how much force did I apply to the handle?

Keeping with the metaphysics, we have here all drawn together the foot, the cubit, the fathom, the Golden Ratio, the double helix, rotation & counter-rotation, ...the human.:confused:

[InfiniteNow]

I've been contemplating the idea of getting one of these to spin using Pa Kua, but I do not feel this would be the best method for doing so. The practice of Pa Kwa is more for redirection of an existing force than generating one.

 

For example, someone in front of me throws a punch at my face, and through a quick sequence of hip movements and one or two steps, I've absorbed their attack, broken their arm, and redirected them to the ground... allowing all manner of follow-up (sorry... went all kung-fu dork there for a moment).

 

To really get this thing whizzing, Tai Chi is the way to go. In Tai Chi, you focus all of your bodies muscles into a single movement, leading with the hips (there are what are called three "harmonies"... hips/shoulders, knees/elbows, ankles/wrists). You are really rooted to the ground, and really small tiny motions result in huge outputs when done correctly.

 

So, I envision setting one of these ups and creating a tai chi based kata with left to right shifts in weight and rhythmic back and forth motions.

 

 

Vrroom zooom froom indeed! :phones:

 

 

Currently, it's just intellectual for me, but I am working up a kata in my mind so that, one day, I may get to see how it interacts with the Khua...

[Turtle]

I've been contemplating the idea of getting one of these to spin using Pa Kua, but I do not feel this would be the best method for doing so. The practice of Pa Kwa is more for redirection of an existing force than generating one.

...

To really get this thing whizzing, Tai Chi is the way to go. In Tai Chi, you focus all of your bodies muscles into a single movement, leading with the hips (there are what are called three "harmonies"... hips/shoulders, knees/elbows, ankles/wrists). You are really rooted to the ground, and really small tiny motions result in huge outputs when done correctly.

 

So, I envision setting one of these ups and creating a tai chi based kata with left to right shifts in weight and rhythmic back and forth motions.

...

Currently, it's just intellectual for me, but I am working up a kata in my mind so that, one day, I may get to see how it interacts with the Khua...

 

Excellent! Right in line with my string (thread if you prefer;) ) This whole topic reeks of combining gedankens with physical movement(s) based on them. I look forward to your further comments & you have prompted me to experiment along your lines. At the very least, I plan to make a short video for the Gallery of me 'toe dibbling':eek: :shade: :) :D

[InfiniteNow]

Try standing sideways and generating your power from your hips. I noticed in your last video most of it was coming from your lower back... not only tiring, but bad for you.

 

Slight bend in the knees.

Breathe.

In through nose, out through mouth.

 

Focus grasshopp... errmmm... I mean, Turtle. :shade:

[Turtle]

Try standing sideways and generating your power from your hips. I noticed in your last video most of it was coming from your lower back... not only tiring, but bad for you.

 

Slight bend in the knees.

Breathe.

In through nose, out through mouth.

 

Focus grasshopp... errmmm... I mean, Turtle. ;)

Excellent physical observations InfiniteNow. By all means let's talk about the physics involved in these spinning disks. You have invoked 'power', & it does indeed take power to keep a disk spinning in a stable manner over time.

Now isn't power just force over time? Now the question is how much force am I applying in the last video?

 

Over the course of this thread I have mentioned many of the variables one would have to consider to make a calculation of how much force is needed to keep a given wheel spinning, e.g. the weight(mass) of the wheel, the length & weight & lay & elastisity & coefficient of friction of the cord, the distribution of mass in the wheel, the spacing of the holes for the cord in the wheel, to name a few that come to mind.

Back now to the kinematics of 'really' working a wheel & particularly a large one. In the video I have my whole weight (130 wet) into the wheel, which is not required to keep the wheel going, & I am pulling with my arms too. So complex are the nuances of operating this that I can't begin to explain; it is something one simply has to do for themselves. As you try to intellectuially fit the wheel to Pa Kwa or Tai Chi InfiniteNow, you will only have half the practical experience you need. Just as those martial disiplines have their own requirements, so too do the disks have their own requirements. Those requirements are emergent properties, or synergies if you will, that the actual working reveals.

To finish off of course we still have the open challenge for anyone or any group to build a machine that is capable of stable operation of a spinning disk. I bet none of you can because it is too hard.:D :lol:

:cup:

[Tim_Lou]

actually, power is energy or work per time. the physics about the spinning wheel should involve torque and moment of inertia. i notice that the torque is very very low since the perpendicular component of the force (perpendicular to the position vector) is very tiny. (the tension force is pretty much pointing in the direction of the center of the spinning device. also, the torque created by this tension is related to the angle of string to the center of the device. [math]T=F*sin(\theta)[/math] resulting in an even lower torque.... put the string further away from the center could help the torque.

 

 

notice angular acceleration=torque/moment

torque=[math]2F*sin(\theta)*sin(\alpha)*R[/math]

[math]\alpha[/math](the angle between the "vertical" tension vector and the "radius" vector)is non-zero since the strings do have thinkness and there will be some unevenness in the experience.

 

just my 2 cents.

im not a physics pro so correct me if I'm wrong.

edit: attached picture, fixed one error (forgot about R)

picture.bmp

[InfiniteNow]

I'm also envisioning a yin/yang kata... or "two-man set." Instead of tying one end to a tree (or other stationary object) have two people, one on each end, interacting complimentarily to keep the kwah spinning...

 

If you get into the math and physics of it all, I may need some tutoring first. ;)

[Tim_Lou]

getting two people would not help at all because of action reaction force (newton's third law). it can be seen that the second person is merely holding the string while counter the other person's pull so that the second person would not fall.

[InfiniteNow]

Thanks Tim. Please note I was not trying to improve the design, simply design a kata for use with this object. In the course of so doing, a few ideas came to mind, and one was for a two man (person) set.

 

 

Cheers. ;)

[Turtle]

getting two people would not help at all because of action reaction force (newton's third law). it can be seen that the second person is merely holding the string while counter the other person's pull so that the second person would not fall.

 

As Infinite implies, it is not a matter of 'helping', but rather finding different ways & means of operating large spinning disks.

When 2 people operate a large spinning disk with a person on each end of the cord, no one is 'merely' doing anything. I have tried this technique & both people end up making the same dynamic adjustments. I invite you all to actually experiment, because without actual experience of what 'really does' happen, speculation about what 'should' happen is of little practical value.

Tim mentioned the angle of the string to the center as a factor in the torque & this is true. Problem is, that as the string twists this angle is constantly changing & I see no accomadation for that in the formula given.

 

:naughty: 4000

/forums/images/smilies/banana_sign.gif

[Turtle]

 

notice angular acceleration=torque/moment

 

torque=[math]2F*sin(theta)*sin(alpha)[/math]

 

[math]alpha[/math](the angle between the "vertical" tension vector and the "radius" vector)is non-zero since the strings do have thinkness and there will be some unevenness in the experience.

 

 

i could post a picture explaining it but i dont know how :

 

just my 2 cents.

 

im not a physics pro so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

First, Tim gets props for being the first to apply any equation to the apparatus.:wave:

 

On making a drawing:

 

--Draw by hand on paper & then scan, or;

 

--Draw using Paint or other image software.

 

--Scale to fit attachment limits & attach to your post. (See my sketch of a machine plan in post #36 of this thread.)

 

 

 

:esmoking:

/forums/images/smilies/banana_sign.gif

[Turtle]

Part of the appeal of this Diable, this Khua, this spinning-disk-on-a-string, is its ubiquity and long history. While watching a news piece on Bono in Africa, I saw a small boy spinning his disk on a string; it appeared to be a sea shell.

Here is the news link for as long as it lasts. Load & watch the video story about Bono in Ghana & toward the end of the report you will see the boy spinning his disk.

Nothing is not connected.:eek:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12958852/

[Turtle]

I worked the 20" Khua today for a 15 minute workout, & I experimented with syncing my breathing to the Khuas. (InfiniteNow, is a kata the same as a form?)

 

Revisiting the Khuas 8 step cycle from an earlier post:

The 8 step cycle:

power unwind left

unwound thump

momentum wind left

stop

power unwind right

unwound thump

momentum wind right

stop

 

Now with breathing notation:

The 8 step cycle:

power unwind left inhale with chest

unwound thump

momentum wind left inhale with belly

stop

power unwind right exhale with chest

unwound thump

momentum wind right exhale with belly

stop

 

:)

[Queso]

what key is it in?

 

Do you know?

[InfiniteNow]

InfiniteNow, is a kata the same as a form?

Absolutely.

 

Breathe in through the nose, pulling your breath just beneath the belly button region, exhale through the mouth, doing so closely synchronized with the moment where most of your strength is required to move the khua.

 

 

Strangely, kata spelled backward is atak... hmmm... Coincidence? :naughty: