God Doesn't Love You

[palmtreepathos]

The fruit of the tree conferred knowledge of good and evil

 

HMMM... Did God say that? or the serpent as mouthpiece? Seems they were fully informed, death was mentioned as the outcome as was all the good they could/had received was mentioned... they were aware of the requirements and God had already proven that his interest in them was for their good. but still free moral agents they grasped at choosing right and wrong for themselves...

 

before they had knowledge of G+E, but without that knowledge they were unable to make any moral judgements, so they could not know that it was wrong to eat the fruit.

 

He as father, provider, caring governer set them up to a lovely life and then told them how to keep his friendship and their safety. Adam's responsibility to warn his wife gave her info enough to answer the serpent/mouthpiece correctly. She knew but wanted to be more than she was made to be, Adam cowardly didn't want to lose his wife so turned his back on the best friend he had. MHO

 

also they knew GOOD personally from the gift that they were given by God they only came to know EVIL by turning their backs on Him in favor of a LIAR. And NO they aren't burning in Hell. God said they would die and they did.

 

We are not eternally punished for this by God. But death as we know it was handed it down to humans as a heritage from the traitorous parents of all mankind *Rom 5:12

 

Also hellfire is

The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 189

another thread entirely tmaromine, it is not taught in the Bible.

 

 

*please do not read this excerpt unless you want to, I just research what "the Book" says as opposed to what people say it says...

[tmaromine]

Well, I've not never heard a Christian say that there's no Hell(fire). (I presume you're Christian ; correct me if you're not.) Whatever "the opposite of Heaven" is is eternal, as "the Book" says, no ? And it's still called Hell ??

 

Basically, because of God's love, he gives all the chance to believe in him and has made Hell for the mindless idiots who don't ? (Which in reality, are usually some of the most intelligent of humanity...)

 

Heaven is a result of God's love, if you 'let him' love you by believing in him, and Hell would be contrasting that, so how doesn't it fit in ?... (The thread's titled "God Doesn't Love You", and really, "God" is whichever and any god – Muslims would interpret "God" as Allah in English and Christians as whatever their god's name is.)

 

When has the Bible never taught of Heaven's opposite ?.. What's Satan's lair ? Where do the non believers go ? When hasn't Hell been of fire ?

[CraigD]

Also hellfire is

The idea of suffering after death is found among the pagan religious teachings of ancient peoples in Babylon and Egypt. Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs depicted the “nether world . . . as a place full of horrors, . . . presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” Although ancient Egyptian religious texts do not teach that the burning of any individual victim would go on forever, they do portray the “Other World” as featuring “pits of fire” for “the damned.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, by Morris Jastrow, Jr., 189

another thread entirely tmaromine, it is not taught in the Bible.

Although some Christian denominations, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses, contend that Biblical references to a fiery hell are mistranslations, standard versions of the Christian Bible do contain such references. For example,

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

.

Well, I've not never heard a Christian say that there's no Hell(fire).

I have heard many Christians (for example, the above mentioned Jehovah’s Witnesses) say with certainty that there is no hell. I’ve heard many say with equal certainty that there is. I’ve heard many express agnosticism on the question. Even on seemingly fundamental theological issues such as this, there is a great deal of diversity of belief among Christians.

[tmaromine]

Ah, ok then. I guess it depends on plamtreepathos' denomination. (Are Jehovah Witness a 'denomination' ?)

 

I never knew that ; all the Christians I know claim a fiery hell... I've actually never heard a Christian have any doubt to Hell, nor to Heaven. It's amazing how a religion stays one religion when even divided up into tens of "better" (based on opinion) denominations... Besides non denominationals, it's as if Christianity isn't much a religion anymore and there's a bunch of other religions which borrow from it... :Glasses:

[palmtreepathos]

if you 'let him' love you by believing in him, and Hell would be contrasting that, so how doesn't it fit in ?

 

aieee! I can see how that fits now. As a proof of an unloving god. And that would be very unloving if the "keep them alive forever to torment them" thing were in the Bible, but it is not. HE said they would die and they died. If you unplug a fan from the electric it gradually quits working. Similar to death. Though some people feel God owes them life eternal after ignoring him, his word and disrespecting his son for all their lives... go figure!!

 

Revalations 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

 

Learning what the Bible teaches takes some effort but is a fascinating study...

the word hell is used in some translations that came about after english appeared

 

In the old English dialect the expression "helling potatoes" meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

 

I will let you research this, but it is interesting that Jesus went to "hell" and Job asked to be hidden there. *Job 14:13

 

*please do not read this excerpt unless you want to, I just research what "the Book" says as opposed to what people say it says...

[tmaromine]

Well, interesting, I guess...

Yes, some people do, which I find very illogical...

 

"Hell": ORIGIN Old English hel, hell, of Germanic origin; related to Dutch hel and German Hölle, from an Indo-European root meaning ‘to cover or hide.’ Like the word "damn", which meant only "loss or damage"... (Oxford American Dictionary)

 

Any way, there seems to be many ways to interpret the Bible... It seems that some can get "evil eternal blazing Hell" out of it while you don't get that. :Glasses: ...

 

If Christianity doesn't have a fiery eternal Hell, it takes some of the "bad" from it and "makes God more loving"/"..less hateful", but I'm still atheist.

[InfiniteNow]

HE said they would die and they died. If you unplug a fan from the electric it gradually quits working. Similar to death. Though some people feel God owes them life eternal after ignoring him, his word and disrespecting his son for all their lives... go figure!!

Seems mighty petty for a being who is supposedly so mighty. :D

 

:circle: :Glasses:

[Buffy]

Seems mighty petty for a being who is supposedly so mighty.

Well, it really does open up the question, why is he a "Jealous God?"

 

Why should God care if we actively worship Him? Depending on how you count, 3 or 4 of the Ten Commandments are about making sure that we do.

 

Sounds positively paranoid to me, but if you consider that religious beliefs might not really be anything more than a form of politics by other means, then keeping your flock in line via scare tactics is incredibly logical....

 

Follow the money,

Buffy

[palmtreepathos]

Seems mighty petty for a being who is supposedly so mighty

 

about the same pettiness you would feel after being sued to support a mass murderer who put your family in the grave...

[InfiniteNow]

about the same pettiness you would feel after being sued to support a mass murderer who put your family in the grave...

 

WTF does that have to do with my point?

[ughaibu]

Did God say that?

 

Yes, according to the Bible, see 3-22. So, as I said, without knowledge of good and evil, they had no way of obeying god.

[paigetheoracle]

God clearly doesn't love you.

 

Or you wouldn't be stuck here on Earth trying to prove your worthiness...

 

Ever consider that??

 

Of course God doesn't love you silly - he loves me! (T-Shirt design seen once 'Jesus loves you but I'm his favourite'). I'm not stuck on Earth - I've given up the effort and will shortly be rising out of the quicksand my foolish efforts to change things on this planet have sucked me into (Once you can 'con'-vince' someone that they're worthless, you've got them trapped in their own mind and a slave, trying to prove their worth to you, 'boss': Get out of the mindset and you set yourself free - see Zen for details (none, actually)).

[paigetheoracle]

Yes, according to the Bible, see 3-22. So, as I said, without knowledge of good and evil, they had no way of obeying god.

 

What is good and what is bad - who judges and why? (Always suspect the motive if you're sure of your facts and always check your facts to see what your motive should be and why, in the first place - pro-life/ anti-life - survival/ the greatest good or what you personally want rather than the corporation or whatever (body of Go(o)d).

[maikeru]

I think once people start to move beyond the notions of right and wrong, good and evil, heaven or hell loses its potency. I do not believe in these concepts as commonly conceived or as one would in a Christian mindset. I believe this mindset itself is problematic, because it categorizes people, ideas, phenomena--perhaps the world at large--incorrectly.

 

It no longer makes sense to me in light of what we know through scientific inquiry. Sometimes things happen because of the dictates of laws and forces we know or do not know, but yet are all too real, neither divine nor hellish in origin. There is no "good" or "evil" when a volcano explodes and kills everyone living by it or when a tsunami washes away the helpless and unknown. Who is at fault when a child is born with a disability or genetic disease? The concepts of good and evil do not adequately address or answer these troubling questions. More sound, rational ones do, even if they do not satisfy our minds or souls (in a poetic sense). Perhaps that is our problem, not the world's.

 

There may be no "who" to judge because the concepts themselves do not really exist except as conventions - convenient categorical constructs - of the mind. These do not bear directly or substantially on reality. There is no case and no judge to begin with...except when humans *think* there is. What we think may bear no relation to or accord with reality. Or, what we think may not be.

[tmaromine]

No matter what one thinks – as long one thinks it , it will always be true, to one.

 

Good points maikeru.

[paigetheoracle]

I think once people start to move beyond the notions of right and wrong, good and evil, heaven or hell loses its potency. I do not believe in these concepts as commonly conceived or as one would in a Christian mindset. I believe this mindset itself is problematic, because it categorizes people, ideas, phenomena--perhaps the world at large--incorrectly.

 

It no longer makes sense to me in light of what we know through scientific inquiry. Sometimes things happen because of the dictates of laws and forces we know or do not know, but yet are all too real, neither divine nor hellish in origin. There is no "good" or "evil" when a volcano explodes and kills everyone living by it or when a tsunami washes away the helpless and unknown. Who is at fault when a child is born with a disability or genetic disease? The concepts of good and evil do not adequately address or answer these troubling questions. More sound, rational ones do, even if they do not satisfy our minds or souls (in a poetic sense). Perhaps that is our problem, not the world's.

 

There may be no "who" to judge because the concepts themselves do not really exist except as conventions - convenient categorical constructs - of the mind. These do not bear directly or substantially on reality. There is no case and no judge to begin with...except when humans *think* there is. What we think may bear no relation to or accord with reality. Or, what we think may not be.

 

Personall I agree and think it's not the words so much but how they are defined and what they include/exclude.

 

For instance I'd say that good equates with construction or creation and evil with destruction or cruelty (The mindset that wants revenge upon the world or that is experimental i.e. totally unaware of the effects (suffering) it has upon other beings).

 

As for being born disabled, I'd personally put that down to a production problem caused by lack of or the addition of certain materials (poisons including radiation). On the assembly line, quality control (or life if you prefer) would take care of that i.e. in the wild the desperately deformed would not survive as other life forms would predate on them or even their own parents, if they did not die themselves as unfeasable lifeforms, incapable of survival without external support.

[tmaromine]

Is it how the words are defined, and thus exclude or include, or just how people look at them emotionally ?..

 

Good is what pleases one, and is better than bad ; and bad is whatever is unpleasant or "not good". Is it possible to define these words without going a route like that ? A 'bad' person's 'good' is just what that person likes, which is 'bad' to us. A bad person's construction and creation is deconstruction and generally cruelty to us. That person might want revenge, and what if that person does want revenge and yet realises it ? They can justify it as "good", because there's some reason behind it, because they think who they're going against is "bad" or has done something "bad. Switch people, and bad and good switch.

 

Bad/Evil and good I'd say can change drastically between different people with simply different looks on life, no ? But since we're general good people, it's easy for us to make definitions that are right, to 'good people'. I've a feeling I'm confusing things...