Are older people capable of rational thought?

[Kriminal99]

How different?

How is this "crappy"?

 

 

Are "MOST" people ignorant?

How do you know?

Are you sure that you are the only one 'in-step"?

 

What problem is that?

 

Do "they"? An example would help me understand what you are talking about. Remeber "I grow old …" and already

" wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled."

So simplicity is best.

 

What YOU presented, I see.

Are you saying old people are amoral?

I'm sure many may like to be but I don't think that is the case.

 

very sterotypical and prejudicial comments. Please support your outrageous claims or take your toys and go home.

 

care about what in particular?-

• you and your very precious opinions?
  
• life?
  
• the univese?
  
• god?
  
• environment?
  
• social justice?
  

 

Really? Please support you prejudice with some facts.

How "old" is your "old'?

 

There are more differences between old people and young people than there is between Black people and White people. Old people and their brains shrivel up and face physical and mental degradation in ways that are plain for all to see.

 

Racism is when you use a category to evaluate something when you should be using more direct information. A clear example is if I refuse to hire an African American because of statistics on black people when this particular African American has a 4.0 average from Harvard. This argument regarding older people has nothing to do with that.

 

Talking about being "in-step" is exactly my point. By this one implies that truth is subjective by comparing truth to the coordination of a marching group. Truth is not subjective and not dependent on what the majority believes. This is one of the main areas in which the average person is ignorant. Another is lack of understanding of the limitations of metaphorical reasoning (and induction).

 

By refusing to respect the power of truth, a person impedes the progress of the human race. When no one has something to say against a superior argument that goes against what the majority believes, it has time to sink in. If someone just responds with a bullshit argument believing their actions are justified by the belief that it is immoral to disagree with a majority (a circular argument by the way) it can confuse others into believing that there may be a defense for the common belief after all and it may take longer for the superior belief to get a foothold in their minds.

 

In my experience older people are more concerned with the feelings of people who agree with a falsehood than they are with the truth. This is wrong of course, but older people are more likely to value immediate and clear consequences than more difficult to gauge consequences that concern with has failed to earn them any great prize in their life.

 

This is what I and many others have seen about older people in our lives. It is fallacious to claim our experiences are invalid because they are not scientific-

 

Careful statistic analysis is only necessary to gain a precise understanding of correlations that are too close to non existent to determine without careful documentation.

 

I don't need a scientific study to tell me that it is painful to bang my head against the wall, because I feel pain EVERY time I try it.

 

If two things are 85% correlated I can probably tell from personal experience, if they are 60% correlated I need a scientific experiment.

[MegaManiac]

In varied degrees of course. depends on how well the machine has been oiled. Where does rational thought end though? And what constitutes the end of rational thought in a person. Irrational behaviors or just overall being a dumbazzz.

 

MNM

[Michaelangelica]

There are more differences between old people and young people than there is between Black people and White people. Old people and their brains shrivel up and face physical and mental degradation in ways that are plain for all to see.

"plain for all"?:

Please provide proof: not your opinions.

 

Racism is when you use a category to evaluate something when you should be using more direct information. A clear example is if I refuse to hire an African American because of statistics on black people when this particular African American has a 4.0 average from Harvard. This argument regarding older people has nothing to do with that.

How come?

 

Talking about being "in-step" is exactly my point. By this one implies that truth is subjective by comparing truth to the coordination of a marching group. Truth is not subjective and not dependent on what the majority believes. This is one of the main areas in which the average person is ignorant. Another is lack of understanding of the limitations of metaphorical reasoning (and induction).

My mis- communication there; sorry

I meant how do you know you are the only one who is "right' and others are 'wrong'?

By refusing to respect the power of truth, a person impedes the progress of the human race. When no one has something to say against a superior argument that goes against what the majority believes, it has time to sink in. If someone just responds with a bullshit argument believing their actions are justified by the belief that it is immoral to disagree with a majority (a circular argument by the way) it can confuse others into believing that there may be a defense for the common belief after all and it may take longer for the superior belief to get a foothold in their minds.

Is that rational thought?

You could of fooled me

What is "truth"?

Who decides?

What do you mean by "superior belief"?

How is it "immoral to disagree with a majority"?

Do you decide what is a "bullshit argument"?

In my experience older people are more concerned with the feelings of people who agree with a falsehood than they are with the truth.

O crap.

This is wrong of course, but older people are more likely to value immediate and clear consequences than more difficult to gauge consequences that concern with has failed to earn them any great prize in their life.

Over generalised crap. Probably older people-you were arguing with- got tired of your crap and walked away as I am about to do.

 

This is what I and many others have seen about older people in our lives. It is fallacious to claim our experiences are invalid because they are not scientific-

No it is not "fallacious" .

 

Careful statistic analysis is only necessary to gain a precise understanding of correlations that are too close to non existent to determine without careful documentation.

If you believe in proposition "X". it is likely that you will see and probably only let in to your brain (?) those arguments that support proposition "X"

There are plenty of Social Psych. experiments to prove this is the case.

 

I don't need a scientific study to tell me that it is painful to bang my head against the wall, because I feel pain EVERY time I try it.

seems to me there is an emotional aspect to your argument.

A hurt that logic does not touch.

Who hurt you? (Pm in trust if you want)

 

If two things are 85% correlated I can probably tell from personal experience, if they are 60% correlated I need a scientific experiment.

Sorry, total rubbish.

Do some studies of statistical method and then come back and talk.

[Michaelangelica]

A bit more on the lack of "rational thought" amongst Oz, male teenagers.

 

Youth in justice system mostly male

Youth in justice system mostly male - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

Nats consider youth driving restrictions

Nats consider youth driving restrictions - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

Road safety driving youth study

 

Posted Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:46pm AEST

 

Young drivers in south-west NSW are being recruited for a major study aimed at finding out why they crash so frequently.

Road safety driving youth study - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

 

Qld ad campaign targets young male drivers

 

Posted Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:11pm AEDT

 

The Queensland Government has launched a new road safety advertisement targeting 17 to 24-year-old men

.

Qld ad campaign targets young male drivers - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Youth stabbed at Adelaide party

Youth stabbed at Adelaide party - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

[Eclogite]

There are more differences between old people and young people than there is between Black people and White people.

The number of differences is irrelevant. The issue is that in ascribing a particular characteristic to old people simply on the basis that they are old is not qualitatively different from ascribing a characteristic based on race. To indulge in such practices is stereotyping. Look it up.

Old people and their brains shrivel up and face physical and mental degradation in ways that are plain for all to see.

I have not seen many old brains so I'll take your word for the shrivelling. I agree that there is mental and physical degradation. Please demonstrate that this degradation leads to an inability to engage in rational thought.

Racism is when you use a category to evaluate something when you should be using more direct information. A clear example is if I refuse to hire an African American because of statistics on black people when this particular African American has a 4.0 average from Harvard. This argument regarding older people has nothing to do with that.

If I may borrow one of your own terms, that sounds very much like a bullshit argument. You would claim, would you that Betrand Russell was unable to engage in rational thought simply because he was ninety five years old? I mean really, such a claim could be said to be lacking in evidence of rational thought.

In my experience older people are more concerned with the feelings of people who agree with a falsehood than they are with the truth.

You should try to get out more.

[ughaibu]

Viktor Korchnoi vs Lajos Portisch (2008)

Korchnoi aged 76, Portisch aged 70.

[paigetheoracle]

Young people are more impulsive than the old because they don't have the experience to self-censor their actions i.e. less aware of the results of their actions upon themselves or others because they haven't yet experimented and experienced (lived). From this viewpoint it would mean the older you get, the less adventurous you become as an aging process because it is pro-survival. It would also fall in with male, youth crime as rebellion against order (rules put into place by an older, experienced male populous).

 

This doesn't mean that their are not exceptions to this in individuals but that this is a mental aging process or reaction to conditions around us (Suicide in the young terminates growth of any sort (depression/death/return to unconsciousness) but a more optimistic attitude, leads to hope and continued effort throughout life: Aging as a mental/ emotional process comes from disappointment, leading to the urge to disconnect from painful trauma as youthfulness is acceptance of every experience, good or bad. Do not mistake physical aging with this.).

 

I have personal experience of this (My life is my lab and my proof is to be found in your own lives i.e. what life does to you and how you react to it personally). So to me, mental aging is the accumulation of blows to the ego and anti-aging, going back to innocense by being pliable and forgetting past losses, in hope of future gain: An innocent mind is a clear mind (perfect memory). It is a return to childhood, with The Doors of Perception, cleared of all negativity - where all senses are on full input, rather than shut down.

 

They call aging 'The Twilight Years'. Personally I see it as 'The Winter of our Discontent', rather than the hope (Spring) of our youth. Think of Hibernation and you'll see that depression is a withdrawal in the same manner, from the harsh realities of life (Cold indifference to our suffering) and also the way a heavy meal sends us off to 'sleep' (Food storage as with wild animals over the winter period as the extension of a natural process).

 

Both these traits exist in us all and have there uses. As it says in the latest edition of 'The New Scientist', the mind needs to clear out the junk in its attic, by forgetting, to function effectively and most of do that. Mnemonists and the Autistic are incapacitated by the decision or inability to do this, so are overwhelmed by impressions and memories (See also Kim Peek, the living tape recorder).

 

Mental aging as I describe it and keeping a youthful attitude is based on the decision, to open up or close down (learn/ keep a hold of the old and familiar).

[Pyrotex]

...This is what I and many others have seen about older people in our lives. It is fallacious to claim our experiences are invalid because they are not scientific-

 

Careful statistic analysis is only necessary to gain a precise understanding of correlations that are too close to non existent to determine without careful documentation....

Your experiences are probably fine and dandy, s'long as you don't suffer from paranoia or schizophrenia. I wouldn't think of criticizing your experiences.

 

It's the INTERPRETATIONS that you make of your experiences that are fallacious, bogus and immature. It's the really flaky conclusions you draw.

 

Let's assume for argument sake, that folks from the 40-and-up set are always disagreeing with your "truth" or in some similar sense giving you flak.

 

Well then, WHY would they do that? :):);)

 

Could it be that they don't value the "truth"? They're all OLD! They aren't capable of rational thought anymore!

 

But there is also another interpretation: your "truth" sucks, your logic is immature and your life is heading nowhere. OLD folks see this and just don't have the time to deal with your 'tudes and aggressive hostility. They say whatever it takes to get safely out of your proximity, so they can devote their rational thought to people who appreciate it, and to projects that can make a difference.

 

You really haven't studied statistics, have you?

 

Oh! That's right! You said once before that you don't read books--something about them being a waste of time when you already know the truth. Yes. It's all becoming clear now.

 

Have a really nice day.

[Chels]

Wow. i found this a very intersting thread, although most of the input i would have contributed (as in free radicals, senile plaques, neurofibrillary tangles...) seems to have been discussed.

 

This also brought back to my memory - i used to work in a private nursing home, and i remember this one resident: quick synopsis' 83 y/o female, established osteoporosis confined to wheelchair, LVF and very frail. Anyway, the first day i was there, the attention bell went off in her room, as i opened her door, i found a little old lady sitting there with a laptop ;) thinking i was hallucinating...anyway, it turned out the "problem" was - she had accidently pulled the internet cable out the back of her computer and couldnt reach it! i asked her what she was doing - and she replied she was making her own website and downloading "all the songs from when she was a wee one" then started bitching about her domain name being pointed to the wrong server :)

in shock, i spoke to her for a while, found out she moderated a forum for "oldies new to the net" which she says - was mostly people aged about 55-70 with a few older and younger, she had only had her laptop for 2 years! after her grandson showed her how to type a letter in word she began playing about with it and literally taught herself.

so, case study above, this might be a rare case indeed but it does go to show that yes, some old people ARE capable of rational thought. im sure there are exceptions for examle - elderly with alzheimers and/or dementia or just those with general forgetfullness, but i think it has a lot to do with whether they stimulate their brains on a regular basis or not.

 

i think a lot goes for the saying "if you dont use it you lose it":D

[DougF]

Pyrotex

It's the INTERPRETATIONS that you make of your experiences that are fallacious' date=' bogus and immature. It's the really flaky conclusions you draw.

 

Let's assume for argument sake, that folks from the 40-and-up set are always disagreeing with your "truth" or in some similar sense giving you flak.

 

Well then, WHY would they do that? :) :eek_big: ;)

 

Could it be that they don't value the "truth"? They're all OLD! They aren't capable of rational thought anymore!

 

But there is also another interpretation: your "truth" sucks, your logic is immature and your life is heading nowhere. OLD folks see this and just don't have the time to deal with your 'tudes and aggressive hostility. They say whatever it takes to get safely out of your proximity, so they can devote their rational thought to people who appreciate it, and to projects that can make a difference. [/quote']

 

I couldn't agree with you more on this.

(couldn't have said it better) :)

[Michaelangelica]

Interesting case Chels. nice story.

But how come we are surprised by stories like this?

 

I think we might be confusing diseases of the old (especially undiagnosed clinical depression, physical infirmities, poor nutrition, alzheimer's, poor pain management, poor psycho-social integration) with aging and rational thought.

 

A GP friend told me of the first time he went to work after training was at an OP home. Two years previously a "Wonder Doctor" had put all the inmates on corticosteroids. The OP were delighted as their bodies felt better and they were more physically active, had less pain and sprightly bodies.

When my friend arrived the tale of this 'wonder doctor" was told to him many times. However in his time he was dealing with countless bone fractures,cracks, breaks and bed-ridden patients as the steroids had ripped all the calcium out of the bones of the inmates.

 

Aging humans are a new species on the planet (certainly in such high numbers) and we need to learn more about what is "normal" and what is a disease and make distinctions between them. I think the 95 YO Bertrand Russell 'rational thinker' is a good example. Perhaps we, these days, put old people on the trash heap far to early. Having dreams, aims, feeling useful and valued is an important aspect of mental, spiritual and physical health

paigetheoracle

Young people are more impulsive than the old

I didn't say this. I said young (16-23ish) males have heaps of testosterone flowing though their system. This takes a bit of getting used too, and can and does, cause all sorts of irrational behaviour.

There are different developmental and psychological problems/challenges at both ends of the age spectrum.

[paigetheoracle]

Interesting case Chels. nice story.

But how come we are surprised by stories like this?

 

I think we might be confusing diseases of the old (especially undiagnosed clinical depression, physical infirmities, poor nutrition, alzheimer's, poor pain management, poor psycho-social integration) with aging and rational thought.

 

A GP friend told me of the first time he went to work after training was at an OP home. Two years previously a "Wonder Doctor" had put all the inmates on corticosteroids. The OP were delighted as their bodies felt better and they were more physically active, had less pain and sprightly bodies.

When my friend arrived the tale of this 'wonder doctor" was told to him many times. However in his time he was dealing with countless bone fractures,cracks, breaks and bed-ridden patients as the steroids had ripped all the calcium out of the bones of the inmates.

 

(1) There's a price to pay for everything - just because you are going forward, doesn't mean you are going uphill, you could be going downhill, fast! Steroids in this case obviously took the hand brake off their lives and drained them of what little bit of energy reserve they had,leading to irreparable damage but it also speeded up their responses, making them feel good but go bad, quicker. Very interesting point!

 

Aging humans are a new species on the planet (certainly in such high numbers) and we need to learn more about what is "normal" and what is a disease and make distinctions between them. I think the 95 YO Bertrand Russell 'rational thinker' is a good example. Perhaps we, these days, put old people on the trash heap far to early. Having dreams, aims, feeling useful and valued is an important aspect of mental, spiritual and physical health

 

I didn't say this. I said young (16-23ish) males have heaps of testosterone flowing though their system. This takes a bit of getting used too, and can and does, cause all sorts of irrational behaviour.

There are different developmental and psychological problems/challenges at both ends of the age spectrum.

 

(2) No but I did and I still believe it equates to what you're saying about testosterone and irrational behaviour (Look at the corticosteroids point above and please see the link)

[paigetheoracle]

Pyrotex - lots of laughs! Very amusing post! Krim, you have been found guilty of being wrong and foolish - the sentence is the hard labour of trying again! (I wish I had come into this world knowing everything like you, it would have made my crass years of finding out less painful (still going on but not as humiliating as it used to be)).

[Michaelangelica]

Memory Loss And Other Cognitive Impairment Becoming Less Common In Older Americans

ScienceDaily (Feb. 23, 2008) — Although it's too soon to sound the death knell for the "senior moment," it appears that memory loss and thinking problems are becoming less common among older Americans.

A new nationally representative study shows a downward trend in the rate of "cognitive impairment" -- the umbrella term for everything from significant memory loss to dementia and Alzheimer's disease -- among people aged 70 and older.

 

The prevalence of cognitive impairment in this age group went down by 3.5 percentage points between 1993 and 2002 -- from 12.2 percent to 8.7 percent, representing a difference of hundreds of thousands of people.

 

And while the reasons for this decline aren't yet fully known, the authors say today's older people are much likelier to have had more formal education, higher economic status, and better care for risk factors such as high blood pressure, high cholesterol and smoking that can jeopardize their brains.

 

In fact, among the 11,000 people in the study, those with more formal education and personal wealth were less likely to have cognitive problems.

. . .

Memory Loss And Other Cognitive Impairment Becoming Less Common In Older Americans

[HydrogenBond]

Humans begin their lives with differential data processing, where we learn distinct things starting with the alphabet, numbers and language. This evolves to reason and being able to make rational comparisons. As we get older the brain forward integrates all this data into 3-D or spatial memory storage often referred to as the wisdom of old age. A good analogy is the carpenter's apprentice and the master carpenter. The apprentice is learning this new knowledge, through reading and his master's teachings. The master is able to improvise to new situations based on his many years of experience. It is not that the master has lost his ability to reason and learn the latest fad, but rather he is gotten beyond that to where he can process data and situations without needing to being culturally propped.

 

Let me give another example. The new parents of a first child are just beginning the learning curve of child raising. The stress of the situation brings heightened panic for little things. They may decide to research the state of the art, as to how to care for and raise their baby. The grandparents have already raised children. Through their own trial and error, mistakes and accomplishments, experience and 20/20 hindsight, they know what to do. The new parents are just learning, so the latest fad gives them some sense of revolutionary direction to appease their anxiety. The grandparents don't want to hear about the fad, since it is just the rehash of an old song that is being performed by a new artist. The new artist may add a few new twists of their own, but the Grandparents can see the original version. The young parents are still in the differential learning stage of learning before forward integration. Their instinct is to follow the social fad, until they can integrate data. Then they change and become grandparents.

[Michaelangelica]

Yes HB "Cultural evolution" ?

Perhaps 'younuns' have the net now and figure they don't need such information.

 

I saw this especially when my daughter learnt that hellishly-difficult instrument the violin.

I often used to sit in on lessons.

The slightest change of posture or movement would make remarkable improvements in the sound.

Every lesson she learnt new tricks and techniques from her teacher.

He in turn had leant from his teachers who in turn , who in turn. . .going back to the invention of the instrument.

You can't call it an "oral history" but it was like that: a shaman passing on his knowledge to his apprentice.

Sometimes she would have master-classes with people like Stephan Grappelli and the techniques and speed of the learning curve was jaw dropping.

 

Parenting by contrast is a steep learning curve and no-one teaches you much about that and what a life changing, life enhancing and bloody difficult job it is.

 

I did find my studies of psychology helped a little.

For example often if you ask a 2 year old girl what she will be when she grows up (one of the dumbest questions adults ask little kids _ "I want to specialise in alien languages of the crab nebula."?) she will say 'A nurse".

"Why a nurse?"

"Because girls cant be doctors"

Having two girls I quickly became a women's libber .

So "girls can be anything" became part of my parental mantra.

( It is interesting how people condescend to me when they thing my hypography Nome de plume is Mishel Angelica - a female.).

I was driving my my eldest somewhere (Dad's taxi) when she was four/five said

"Dad you said a girl can be anything she wants to be -right?"

"Yes. . ." and so on I raved as usual about no doors being closed; girls could do anything boys could etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam .

 

I nearly ran off the road in amazement and shock when she floored me with:

"Then can I be a Daddy?"

(She swears now,(at 26), she was not being a smart-arse, but just thought Daddies were cool.)

 

Teaching and relationships are a two way process. the young can teach the old and vice versa.

Perhaps we should exclude adolescents from this as Mark Twain once reportedly said. "When I was fifteen I thought my Dad knew nothing."

When I was twenty one I was amazed how much he had learnt in six short years."

[Kriminal99]

Your experiences are probably fine and dandy, s'long as you don't suffer from paranoia or schizophrenia. I wouldn't think of criticizing your experiences.

 

It's the INTERPRETATIONS that you make of your experiences that are fallacious, bogus and immature. It's the really flaky conclusions you draw.

 

Let's assume for argument sake, that folks from the 40-and-up set are always disagreeing with your "truth" or in some similar sense giving you flak.

 

Well then, WHY would they do that? :lol::)

 

Could it be that they don't value the "truth"? They're all OLD! They aren't capable of rational thought anymore!

 

But there is also another interpretation: your "truth" sucks, your logic is immature and your life is heading nowhere. OLD folks see this and just don't have the time to deal with your 'tudes and aggressive hostility. They say whatever it takes to get safely out of your proximity, so they can devote their rational thought to people who appreciate it, and to projects that can make a difference.

 

You really haven't studied statistics, have you?

 

Oh! That's right! You said once before that you don't read books--something about them being a waste of time when you already know the truth. Yes. It's all becoming clear now.

 

Have a really nice day.

 

Stating a contested position with no support = implied appeal to authority/ ad hominem fallacy

 

(You make flaky conclusions, etc)

 

Anyone can make ridiculous claims about what they think of the other person just because they are jealous or mad that someone is better at thinking or whatever other reason. If everyone does that the argument never gets anywhere.

 

So reducing your thread to the only legitimate, non whiny argument contained in it:

 

"Maybe you misinterpreted your experiences"

 

I said that old people were being stubborn NOT because they disagree, but because when they are wrong they never admit it.

 

There is quite a difference and it is quite obvious to see. When an argument continues forever it is because one side is, in short, bullshitting. The ratio of Bullshit arguments to objective rational arguments kind of shows you how objective and rational someone is being.

 

When I said "You can tell when you make that perfectly clear argument that blows theirs out of the water" part of that is gaging their reaction to what you said not just self evaluation of your own argument. If they are not used to debate their face will contort and they will act in anger because they still think their worth is some how tied to their arguments being correct but for them it is even worse. If they are use to it, they might just shut up for a second as if they finally realized that you were saying something different than they thought.

 

At this point, the next thing to occur varies. An experienced debater might be like "hmm well let's say that is true then why this". An average person might just be like "well I don't want to talk about this any more". Some people however, despite the fact that they have just given away that they came to a realization based on what you said, will just come up with more "bullshit".

 

The quality of the bullshit they come up with at that point is very clearly poor as they are just trying to buy some time to think of something better to say. The point though, is that they feel they never have to concede or give up even if they demonstrate that they know they are wrong.