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The Next Generation of Hypography


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#35 IDMclean

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 07:39 PM

Mood: :weather_storm: :eek_big: :help: :weather_rain:

I am not saying that you, or the people who make up hypography, purposely set out to do this, but the systems in place combine to result in tendency towards slight elitism. In some members it becomes amplified and can ruin otherwise objective, informative tendencies.

I am not saying that the purpose is to do this, I am saying that counter to the purpose, the system in some cases serves to positively feedback and select for these tendencies, in some cases. Lately my best examples are Turtle and Uncle AI. I commend them for their contributions, however their bed side manner could use improvement, IMHO. Not to say I am without sin, but as I have said before I am not immune to critism, nor improvement, nor should I be.

At current I am too tired to objectively identify exactly what is the cause, but I know that it can lead to the alienation, and lead away from naturalization to the hypography environment.

Now, I won't dispute that the number of people who are registered grows, but the number of people who participate, would seem to me on a superficial look to be somewhat lower. It would seem to me that in general the long standing active members are the few, the proud, etc...

I would like to see the diversity of participants from day to day and thread to thread increase, perferablly at a similar rate as the number of people who join the site day to day. However that means allowing the new members a place to interject, a way of demystifying some of the more arcane threads, collecting the majority of data into a single easily traversable information entity.

That also, as I have said means getting older members actively involved with the new members. many people in my experience wait to be invited into the existing social structures for fear of retribution for slights, real or perceived. In some cases that reactionary elitism thing can get in the way of that. I consider myself a pretty tough person intellectually, Uncle AI's early comments didn't help my uncertain social esteem.

Now like I said, Hypography would be well served by a wiki of some kind, the more integrated with the forum and news the better. The more diverse the fields of inquiry that we discuss the better, and the more structured (of the form following the function, that is structured not for structure's sake but for function/purpose sake.) our discussions the better.

Take for instance the rules. In the rules we have a beautiful set of information regarding fallacies, however the context, accessibility, and usuability of those rules are not optimal. Fallacies take place in discussion or debate, why is it that we do not like wise have rules for our (essentially) structured and peer reviewed discussions? Without the implicitly or explicit (better for new members) structure, objectives, rules, boundaries, the individual is left to find their own form of debate or discussion which may not live up to the community standard resulting in the ridicule or pre-mature banning of individuals due to the unspoken rules of conversation.

One of my experiences of this in play was in my tango with Buffy over a new member of hypography. Now admittedly the word used by the member has negative connotations.

The reaction to the unconventional member was rather strong. This is a case where the member was expected to know what is and is not acceptable, implicitly (unspoken rules). This may seem reasonable to the people who are used to hypography and have been around, but it isn't reasonable for new people.



Now I am not saying that Hypography should engulf smaller forums or any such. I was merely suggesting the possibility of a merger. The purpose of that purposal was towards an expanded community. As currently, form where I am at there are hypography only links.

For an example of what I mean by community, I would suggest taking a look at this. Total Annihilation Universe. The reason, is this. That community started shortly after the game was released and is one of the largest longest lived game communities on the Internet, even today. The structure of the site is very simple, but is very much to the point, and makes it a point to build in connectivity and community to the site itself.

We could do likewise with Hypography, excepting that we would try and seek out to form a community out of more academic circles. The idea is to enlarge exposure both of hypography and the sites that we support. For instance, I would wonder if perhaps anyone has approached the Associations for the Advancement of Science.

In America alone we have:
United States National Science Foundation
American Association for the Advancement of Science

Just to name two off the top of my head. Undoubtably if this is as Wiki says:

one of the most intellectually rich and diverse online science communities on the Internet.

then the afforementioned organizations would be interested in this network. If not willing to promote the site, publicly.

My main purpose in this all of course is to increase the quantity and quality of hypographers participating, and by proxy myself.

I am of course reasonable, and would like to hear alternative solutions. I am only purposing a few upgrades or additions to the Hypography features list.
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#36 InfiniteNow

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Posted 16 December 2006 - 11:59 PM

Mood: :read: :phones: :cocktail: :ud:

I am not saying that you, or the people who make up hypography, purposely set out to do this, but the systems in place combine to result in tendency towards slight elitism.


You raise some interesting points KAC, but I only wish now to respond to the quote above. This is not a Hypography-specific phenomenon, but an evolved tendency. The alpha leader reproduces, and in this web-based world, the elite are chosen by the membership. You could put forceful guidelines in place, and you'd still have strong and weak (wrong and elite).

#37 IDMclean

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 04:33 AM

the system can be thought of as space-time and the elements making it up as mass-energy. Mass-energy tells space-time how to bend and space time tells mass-energy how to move. That is my point. The system determines to a large degree the interaction of the players. Take for instance the numerous spammers. They don't last long because the various systemic constraints imposed. Enforced by the various members of hypography, and most of all by those with sysop powers (IE Banning).

Likewise people who come to rant and preach, without consideration to the rules do not last long.

This is not a Hypography-specific phenomenon, but an evolved tendency.

I would not dispute that this is not hypography-specific. Though I will not argue in favor of "evolved" tendency either. That sounds to me like "innate" or "inherited" characteristics. Which in this case is in reference to a social system and social contract.

All hypography members submit to this contract, and if they do not then they do not last long.

Now here is the upside of my critism. Hypography is a notable exception to the rule. Most forums have a feeling of futility associated with discussion. There are no rules by which the members operate and that are enforced with any kind of veracity. Hypography is my favor place to go because I can, by the rules of the system, have a fair discussion on practically any topic(within the confines of rules).

The rules of hypography, though exceptional can be improved with the overall system of hypography. The system (the Formal Elements, and System Dynamics) can be made (through rep and other social balancing effects) to amplify desirable forms of debate and discussion.

I continue to exist here at Hypography because of these dynamics. I find hypography to be an Optimal Experience (most of the time), and to engender the flow. It is challenging without being impossible.

The imbalance, in my opinion is at the low end of the scale however. their is a steep skill difference between the skillful players of the game (most all of us who have participated here in this thread) and the unskilled players of the game (What I would perceive to be the majority of the hypography audience.)

It is this nice eventual balance that catches many of us. The system is mostly fair but I think we can fine tune it and exemplify what makes Hypography unique amongst the other forums of the Internet.

I am not saying to rush such tuning. Like any good engineering feat, or scientific experiment it should be done on a trial basis and with much consideration and deliberation. Perferably passing through a QA style peer review process. If possible non-hypographers should be approached about what they would like to see in a forum. Just as we are doing an internal design discussion here and now, there should be consideration for those who might be but currently are not hypography members.

That is hypography like any good system should undergo conceptualization (brainstorming like this), formalization (formalizing the conceptual elements), prototyping, playtesting (usability, accessibilty and functionality), and evaluation. In an on going iterative process with the explicitly goal towards making this a better environment to become a more informed individual.

Part of making hypography more universal is eliminating as many dangerous elements (such as elitism, something that many authorative and intellectual institutions have a historic issue with) as possible and reducing the perceived risk of involvement. Turning this into a safer (less intimidating) environment that is consecutive to the growth of new members.

I have recently been attempting this same sort of issue in regards to the X University design I am working on. So far I intend to use the majority of what I have observed here at hypography as my basic model. hence why I would like to see the end product being called "Hypography University". An example to all.

Some resources of interest:
The Theory of Constraints
Positive Psychology
Flow
Hypography -> Hyperfocus
Project Management
Wikipedia, Policies and Guidelines
Wikipedia, Five Pillars
Wikipedia, Code of Conduct

I am particularly interested in seeing Hypography meet:

1. Clear goals (expectations and rules are discernible).
2. Concentrating and focusing, a high degree of concentration on a limited field of attention (a person engaged in the activity will have the opportunity to focus and to delve deeply into it).
3. A loss of the feeling of self-consciousness, the merging of action and awareness.
4. Distorted sense of time - one's subjective experience of time is altered.
5. Direct and immediate feedback (successes and failures in the course of the activity are apparent, so that behavior can be adjusted as needed).
6. Balance between ability level and challenge (the activity is neither too easy nor too difficult).
7. A sense of personal control over the situation or activity.
8. The activity is intrinsically rewarding, so there is an effortlessness of action.


Just food for thought.

#38 theblackalchemist

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 05:03 AM

What about a journal that is e mailed to users for free and with a little cost for a guest containing

1 . The hottest posts of hypography choosed by the subscriber on what topic he wants for eg
there can be a checkbox with the names of all of the forums ( chemistry , physics , etc..... )

also i personally find it a bit difficult to put questions so i end up wasting time hunting for the thread
so what about a new forum for only questions ??

TBA

#39 Tormod

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 05:18 AM

What about a journal that is e mailed to users for free


Good idea. We used to have a newsletter but technical issues stopped it and then nobody bothered to pick it up. We have something in the works but a lot of folks are busy with exams etc, hopefully we can get something out soon.

also i personally find it a bit difficult to put questions so i end up wasting time hunting for the thread so what about a new forum for only questions ??


That's a brilliant idea.

#40 IDMclean

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 03:20 PM

Here's a simpler idea.

More verbose linkage capabilities.

something to the effect of:
[math]\vec{Some Link^{1,2,3,...,n}}[/math]
Where the numbers are sublinks for different sources. So I could link a concept like hypography to a number of different sources in a concise manner. Like wikipedia, the dictionary, and hypography itself. The arrow over it is to indicate for multiple part linkages. so that hypography could be setup to be Link: hypo, Link: graphy, link: Hypography, Sources {wikipedia, dictionary, hypography}. So you could click on hypo and that would take you to the main source on hypo, or graphy which would take you to the main source on graphy. Click the arrow and it would take you to the main source of hypography.

Just a rough idea.

#41 Tormod

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 03:42 PM

More verbose linkage capabilities.


Very interesting idea, KAC. This one deserves some serious thought. It sounds instantly like something that we could do, and which falls under what the term "hypography" really means.

#42 anglepose

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 03:46 PM

i would like a google powered search on the forum portal it would be very handy as then i could set my homepage to hypograthy forum portal instead of google
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#43 anglepose

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 03:49 PM

ooo another idea that would benefit us all especially me
an alert at the top of the screen when someone has replied in your subscribed threads
i like the idea of a IM at the bottom of the screen to

#44 IDMclean

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 03:59 PM

I could totally agree with the google thing, as well as the various wikimedia sites.

Expecially if the search bars were included in the User Panel, that is basically my home page right now.

Killean and I were talking about the form of the multi-links and he suggested, quite elegantly if I do say so myself, that instead of my complex little setup it could take the form of a collapsable quote-styled box with a table of links. Same idea can apply for the search engine thing so that you have 1 or more of these collapsable tables with built-in search engines, much like how my fox fire browser has this nifty component somewhat like that in the upper right hand corner.

You know it occurs to me that perhaps Hypography would make a good browser paradigm?

#45 IDMclean

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 04:10 PM

I rep posts as often as I can remember too.

I have been heavily thinking about the rep system and other style gradient systems. The issue with the rep system is that it has an imbalanced tendency towards positive feedback, and amplification. Combined as I have said before with non-descriptive rep score, it makes it hard to judge exactly what another user has been identified to be accomplished at.

So first off I would suggest the rep system be related not only to the number of posts that a person makes, and the acknowledge quality of those posts but also to the type of the post, that is why it was acknowledged to be a quality post (of what quality I would ask now? Humorous, knowledgable, wise, or otherwise?). The system would be best to serve as a statistical rating system that ranges between zero and 1, or 0 percent participation and 100% participation, or some similarly constricted range.

Positive feedback improves the rating of the user in a given area or areas, amplifying the player's rating, negative feedback reduces the rating of the user in a given area or areas, regulating the player's rating. When one goes to rep another not only should you have comments but a series of perhaps check boxs or similar that identifies what the reason it is that you are repping the post. What qualities you found to be rep worthy (either for positive or negative).

Also, I would love it if I repped a person, that their post stand out for others to examine why it is that I repped the post. Perhaps giving the comment stage two or more parts. One for positive feedback and one for negative feedback. So that you can say what you liked about the post and what you think could use improvement.

I hope that tastes good, I love food for thought.
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#46 IDMclean

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 04:37 PM

From a slightly older thread:
Tell us what you want

#47 Southtown

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 09:02 PM

A debate forum: refereed, viewable by everyone, but posting restricted to debaters/referees during debates and locked afterwards. An 'open challenge' page/thread for people to accept matches, maybe a sidebar...
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#48 Southtown

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 09:08 PM

I duno if its growing in traffic that much, although this might not be very accurate:

http://www.alexa.com...aphy.com/forums

ps. What happened mid oct?

Interesting... And a link for the mathematicians:
Freak waves, rogue waves, extreme waves and ocean wave climate

#49 Southtown

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Posted 17 December 2006 - 09:31 PM

Also, add more user information under usernames in forum posts. Listing achievements like number/difficulty of puzzles/quizzes completed, pictures/resources contributed, (debates won =P) etc. would encourage people to use parts of the site that they would not normally. It would also foster the 'community' aspect which is the glue, ya know, by letting members get to know each other apart from just discussion.

#50 maikeru

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Posted 18 December 2006 - 01:49 AM

Hmm, I'm not sure. This is one of the best forums I've been on and light-years ahead of any other science forum I've encountered. I'm always learning new things here. I take that as a good sign. :cup:

I do like the idea of a Wiki Hypography. Also, I wouldn't worry about the forums dying. Seems new and great members are coming in all the time. This place feels like home, although I've been here for only 4 months or so.

#51 Buffy

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Posted 19 December 2006 - 12:56 AM

Links to streaming media hosted elsewhere like YouTube, Google Video, etc.

One of my favorite sites on the web uses this: Crooks & Liars every evening puts an item in their blog called "Late Night Music Club" with wonderfully topical selections from You Tube: The other night in honor of the passing of Ahmet Ertegun, they put up three clips of Charlie Parker & Dizzy Gillespie, Led Zeppelin and Tori Amos. Boy was that fun.

At any rate, there's more and more video lying around relevant to Hypography and it sure would be cool to link it in...

30 frames per second,
Buffy